The argument that Americans are sacrificing identity to a bland and repetitive business culture (e.g., Starbucks, Walmart, etc.) is silly.

Americans have always sought identity from ideas more than material surroundings. We don't derive our identity from where we shop anymore than the village of our birth.

Americans define themselves by ideas. Democrat, Republican or Independent. Christian, Agnostic or other. Anti-Abortion or pro-Choice. Embrace or despise labor unions. How does one feel about the Iraq War or Guantanamo. And so on.

I sometimes feel that, in Europe, the real debates were silenced decades ago. There appears to be very little dissent on climate change, abortion, public funding for healthcare and tertiary education, high taxes and generous social benefits, etc.

It seems that European political enthusiasm died in the ruins of the Second World War. Many of the things that Europe argues about politically, seem like trivially different positions from the US perspective.

The US is clearly alive politically in a way that Europe appears dead. That's where we get our identity from, not whether we prefer McDonalds or Wendys.

>>There appears to be very little dissent on climate change, abortion, public funding for healthcare and tertiary education, high taxes and generous social benefits, etc.

It seems that European political enthusiasm died in the ruins of the Second World War. Many of the things that Europe argues about politically, seem like trivially different positions from the US perspective.<<<

I suppose it is because most Europens agree in those matters. There is nothing to argue about. Political enthusiasm in bombed ruins would not have helped in rebuilding.

>>There appears to be very little dissent on climate change, abortion, public funding for healthcare and tertiary education, high taxes and generous social benefits, etc.<<

>>I suppose it is because most Europens agree in those matters. There is nothing to argue about.<<

One of the things that struck me the most during my trip to Ireland and the UK this summer was the uniformity of thought on so many topics. It is as if the people I met and talked with had ideas that were the product of groupthink or something. I don't mean for that to be insulting... well, I suppose I don't mean for it to be any more insulting than a European's insistence that Americans are all brainwashed into thinking uniformly! *LOL Maybe my hosts at these various family and social gatherings were just being polite, but I've experienced more diversity of thought at dinner parties in the US.

Smueller.

To European eyes, U.S. politics and ideas seem very bland. The Democrats and Republicans seem very similar in their policies, one opposing what the other proposes, apparently for the sake of it. Both are to the right of most European parties.

I think you underestimate the traumatic nature of the twentieth century for many Europeans, and their resultant desire for progressive politics and a supportive welfare state. We saw populations destroyed and displaced and our industries and infrastructure in ruins. We also saw the negative effects of nationalism and political extremism.

Fortunately, we now seem to have put all that behind us, and have the opportunity to create a Europe of peace and prosperity for all its citizens.

"...And we were shocked that GWB was elected TWICe and then was allowed to start a war he couldn't win."

Please remember that less than 50% of the popular vote went to Bush. And as for the war, there is very little popular support in that arena, either.

Not wanting to make this a political forum, but I believe Bush has squandered whatever international good will that existed for the USA ... as an American, I am embarrassed and ashamed that he is our "leader."

>>>One of the things that struck me the most during my trip to Ireland and the UK this summer was the uniformity of thought on so many topics. <<<

Look at the topics smueller mentioned: "climate change, abortion, public funding for healthcare and tertiary education, high taxes and generous social benefits, etc." Those are the things Europeans usually want, and have managed to create. I dont´t think anybody would want to go back into 1950´s when social system was very much like that in the US. The only topic of those mentioned that might cause arguments is abortion, and even that would cause disagreements only in Poland, Ireland and Malta.

>Back in the 60s the US was a country to watch and be inspired by.<

Exactly which day in the 60's do you have in mind?

Before or after: the U2 spy plane incident; the riots in Panama; the Bay of Pigs; US Marshals integrating public schools in Alabama; the Cuban Missile Crisis; overthrow of Ngho Din Diem; escalation of forces in Vietnam; anti-American demonstrations in 1962; invasion of the Dominican Republic; riots in Panama; race riots in NYC, Philadelphia, Chicago and Jacksonville; race riots in Watts; anti-war demonstrations; anti-American demonstrations in Indonesia; race riots in Detroit and Newark; anti=American demonstrations in Greece; riots at the Chicago Convention; world-wide anti-American demonstrations in 1968; election of Nixon; Woodstock? :)

((I))

My personal opinion is that the world doesn't like the US because the media tells us they don't. It makes for great copy, sells papers, airtime. You get the point.

Our economy runs first on money followed closely behind by ego. So, when you see media outlets pushing a volatile agenda the are trying to increase their bottom line, get fat bonuses, you get the picture. When you see an opposition party try to trick the public with "spin" they are vying for power which equates to money and ego.

Its all sad, but true.

Also, the Europeans we know can't get enough of the US.

"And as for the war, there is very little popular support in that arena, either."

As for the war, there was no debate - not there wasn't much, but there was NO debate - in the US before America went in.

And as for this crap about European groupthink:

- How many of today's US Congressmen showed opposition to the Iraq war in 2003?

- How many of the current Presidential hopefuls showed opposition in 2003?

- If there's all this debate about climate change in the US, why did 96 of America's 100 Senators oppose the Kyoto treaty? Strident denial of scientific facts isn't debate: it's plain old fashioned know-nothingism (to use a US-invented political idea)

- How many US Congressmen voted to make US warcrimes abroad subject to international courts?

- Where in the US are the experiments in flat tax, privatisation and opening up of domestic markets and government procurement to foreign competition that are bursting out throughot Europe?

- And talking of political senility: if it's such a scandal Bush was voted in on a minority popular vote in 2000, why has there been no serious attempt to reform the 18th century Electoral College system that spawned it? Fact is: you'd all rather whine about it that get off your arses and do anything

When I go to the US, I see a country where serious political debate stopped about 1785. These days it's been replaced by interminable, action-preventing, acrimony

The Clash got it right in 1977 and 30 years later it still rings true:

http://tinyurl.com/2r2kcf

If in doubt - ask a dead rock star. Works for me everytime

Sorry, the thesis is flawed as any academic will explain. First, define Europe; is it the English speaking countries or the area between Iceland and the Urals? I have been in Europe 11 years (Poland and Slovakia) and have yet to hear or experience malevolent speech or actions toward or about the USA. Instead I get a steady request for help for means to move to or visit the USA. Europeans in general are to busy with their own problems to concern themselves with USA.

Hi Flanner,

A good US friend of mine did write a letter to the President begging him not to go to war and stating the reasons why. And there were a few demonstrations.

Everything to no avail. The people's voice had been silenced.

Liam - I agree, and I didn't offer it as a disparaging remark either. I spent a year in Japan as a visiting scholar at the University of Tokyo - talk about bland politics. European political debates are positively exciting in comparison.

>>"...And we were shocked that GWB was elected TWICe and then was allowed to start a war he couldn't win."

Please remember that less than 50% of the popular vote went to Bush.<<

Our political system (a strong executive, a strong legislature, and courts independent from both) is very different from the Parliamentary system, in which it is **usually** a coalition of parties that form a government with a weak presidency.

We hold elections on a regular schedule, not when it appears most useful to the political parties - whether in power or in opposition.

Despite efforts by some politicos to change it (usually to increase the likelihood of a Republican president), our President is chosen indirectly, and not necessarily by popular vote.

The two times that Mr Bush was elected, could not be called a mandate - more a lucky break - as voters were split almost 50/50.

As a side note, there are no red states and no blue states. If you look at the map by voting district, you see almost uniformly purple states.

((I))

There is certainly plenty of dissent on the Iraq War today.

So what are the hot topics of political disagreement in Europe?

Are the difference between the Tories and Conservatives, Royale and Sarkozy, etc. even comparable to the differences between US Democrats and Republicans?

My impression of Europe, especially Continental Europe, is that young people are offered a much more limited choice of beliefs and belief systems that are considered politically and socially acceptable.

*Warning - these are generalizations* (but so are yours. LOL)
Americans must discover everything themselves. In this way it is still a fiercely isolationist country.
Can you see the US being part of a North American Union? Yet it is partly what is responsible for Europe's rise in economic success lately.
Healthcare is another perfect example - checkout the thread on European Healthcare. LOL
The rest of the world is metric. Replacing small currency with coins is accepted as cost-saving and efficient by most industrialized countries.
"Socialism" is still a bad word in the States.
For the most part, global conservation initiatives are shunned.
Views on sexual preference, abortion lag behind most others.
But as individuals you will not find a friendlier, open, more loyal group of people. As a friend, there is none better. Just don't suggest that something is better somewhere else.

>The rest of the world is metric.<

So is the US. We are one of the founders of the agreement of 1875.

US measures are defined by law in terms of their metric equivalents.

We just never got around to implementing the system.

((I))

To name a few topics on which we have heated discussions going on in Germany:

- Should we sacrifice personal freedom and civil rights for the fight against terrorism?

- How to finance our Social Security system in the future? So far it's mostly paid by contributions from the salary of employees - should we change to financing by taxes? VAT increasing?

- Child care. Parents staying at home or giving their kids to public/private Day Cares?

- Privatizing public services (e.g. German Railways)?

- Universities/Colleges are (almost) free so far - should they be allowed to charge their students in the future for investing the money in better quality of teaching?

The topics that you named, smueller, were discussed in the past. We found a consensus and why start again after it works well? Can there be a dissenting opinion on climate change?

It is true that the big political parties are getting more and more similar (CDU/CSU and SPD), but they lose support (and votes) and the smaller parties like the Liberals (FDP) and Greens are getting stronger. Even the Left wings are getting more and more votes. So there is a choice for young people IMO.

>>young people are offered a much more limited choice of beliefs and belief systems that are considered politically and socially acceptable.<<<

smueller, where do you get that idea? Young people (and old) can believe in just about everything and anything and still be socially accepted. I cannot even think of anything that would be socially unaccectable, except maybe joining some neo-nazi group. They can join the communist party if they want to, it is just a party among others. They can join any church or be atheists, and nobody would blink an eye (well, maybe a Polish granny would in the atheist case). They can have an abortion if they want one, and nobody protests outside the clinic. If they have brains they can study whatever they want to, and the tuitition is free up to a doctorate, so they are not dependent of their parents and their parents ideas. They are free to marry or have a family and be unmarried, and nobody thinks they should marry because of the children. If they are gay, they can marry if they so choose. And so on.

You know, you COULD just get some chains and hit yourself in the back for being an American, in the style of those guys in Iran. Just don't ask the rest of us to participate; assist maybe, but not participate.

Elina - not all those things are true everywhere in europe.

I wouldn't want to be gay in Poland for instance.

And there was this:

>>So what are the hot topics of political disagreement in Europe?<<<

I suppose it would be the EU constitution and agriculture. many things Americans seem to disagree are just non-issues in Europe,

climate change --> people agree that it is a danger that has to be dealt with ASAP

abortion --> What is there to argue about?

public funding for healthcare and tertiary education ---> everybody agrees that those are good things

high taxes and generous social benefits --> first mentioned makes second mentioned possible, and people ready to pay a little more just to have a more well-being and peaceful society

>>> wouldn't want to be gay in Poland for instance<<<

I know, and that is why I mentioned Poland also in connection with abortion and religion. But in general I feel that most European countries have less tabus and are more tolerant than US.

Tomboy - not sure if your post was in response to mine regarding outcomes of the Bush presidency. Just to clarify - I am not ashamed or embarrassed to be an American - just that the current administration, in my opinion, has not made very good decisions nor has it been a force in retaining respect or admiration around the globe. I am not a Bush supporter, but that does not mean I am not an American.

Americans, the extreme paradox..many people hate them but at the same time many people envy them..and wished they were Also Americans.

Elina,

On most issues, yes.

Switzerland is going through a mild debate on daycare. It's still frowned upon by many Swiss. Goes against traditional values.

Even lunch at schools is frowned upon. Children should go home for lunch and be with their mothers.

There might be some heated debates coming up in the future because something has to change. Too many kids come home to an empty house. Daycare centers are very few and far between. Single mothers can't afford daycare.

Traditional values are about to be shaken up a bit.

Well, Switzerland and Austria are the last bastions of "traditional" values.

"As for the war, there was no debate - not there wasn't much, but there was NO debate - in the US before America went in. "

Oh, that's completely untrue. In Congress, no, but elsewhere there was TONS of debate.

You are correct about the hagiography of the Founding Fathers. American Exceptionalism demands at least lip service to the notion that a handful of the smartest guys who ever lived created a perfect union, and we must respect their every intention forevermore -- even though our world doesn't resemble theirs in the slightest, and all of the things that make America a great country are the products of quite different men much, much later -- mostly in the twentieth century, in fact.

What you have to realize about America is that the government is not important to us. Another key feature of America's national myth is that everything we've done was accomplished by gritty sunburnt individualists wielding Colt .45s, which is ludicrously false -- we are a social and socialist nation just like any other. But everybody hates the government, and considers it to be worthless and useless.

Our system also perpetuates the falsehood that a 50.1% majority speaks for 100%, which is how disasters like Iraq happen. The Democrats went along with Bush because the fundamental characteristic of Democrats is cravenness or cowardice -- the fear of being thought weak. (The fundamental characteristic of Republicans is evil -- smashing up the china shop and blaming it on others.) But most Americans don't think these failings reflect on them at all, because they don't think Congress or the President have anything to do with them. It's only when the Preznit is drawing an unusual amount of attention to himself that most Americans even know who he is.

It is a huge, huge mistake to think that American politics has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with American character. American life is something that goes on despite politics, not because of it. Intelligent histories of the US barely mention political leaders, because they are NOT IMPORTANT TO OUR WAY OF LIVING.

England is not so hugely different, in the corresponding period of its development. The political fellows in the nineteenth century -- figures like Robert Peel, the Duke of Wellington, even Disraeli and Gladstone, were mostly useful for the starting of innumerable wars, while the real power of Britain was being built in the dark satanic mills (and in the holds of ships) up north.

So yes, there is a very wide swathe of public opinion that never gets represented in our government. Most of the time, we don't really care. We're too busy doing other things.

Unfortunately we find ourselves in a situation now where the people who DO care a great deal are the worst we have to offer: the ones who are all too happy to loot the Treasury and spread death across the globe in service of the vacuous ideologies of microcephalic conservative "thinkers" like Paul Wolfowitz and Bill Kristol. When the body of a country completely abandons the political arena, it gets taken over by cranks and crooks. It's happened a half-dozen times before in our history.

The plus side is, our best and brightest are working in productive areas. The minus is, government has been abandoned to the dimmest and most venal.

Are we on the decline side of Empire? Could be; certainly we are behaving like it -- for a quarter-century our military adventures have been motivated exclusively by picking fights with weaklings we know we can bully, from Grenada to now. They, and Iraq, are designed not to deal with serious threats but to pump up our own sense of superiority. We misjudged Iraq, of course, but that's the judgement we used.

American power simply isn't interested in looking at REAL threats -- because they don't have to. So when one comes along that actually merits a little attention, we're out of practice thinking seriously, and we start with the popinjay act, strutting around and talking tough, but using our quite impressive military in ways that defy belief.

Unfortunately, the lessons of Iraq are going to be like the lessons of Vietnam -- wrong. The lesson is going to be "avoid foreign entanglements that matter". I fully expect the next Republican president, in 2017 or thereabouts, after a Dem interregnum, to beat the crap out of some country like Haiti to prove that "it's morning again".

There's no reason to stop doing stuff like that just because your empire isn't top dog anymore. Look at the Falklands.

In the meantime, the world will get better or worse of its own accord -- probably both. More people will get richer, global warming will cause a lot of damage, a lot of ineffectual bombs will nonetheless kill a lot of people.

The real threat to the well-being of the globe isn't Bushie warmongering or Islamofascists; it's if China mismanages its new responsibilities as America's creditor. If they screw up their handling of our debt, or we fail to successfully adapt to debt controls, everybody else's economy is going to blow up too.

Kismetchimera

Many people do want to live in America, just as many want to live in Europe and Australia, and anywhere which offers them the opportunity to prosper and raise their children in a free and democratic society. The USA is not unique in this respect. In a world with many opportunities, people are prepared to travel to get whatever benefit they can, and that can include Americans moving to Europe and elsewhere.

The big challenge for the prosperous democracies is how they cope with their immigrants. Both Europe and the United States are under pressure from the south, us from Africa and you from Central and South America. We cannot deny to others for ever the opportunities we have had ourselves. We cannot have global movement of capital and goods while denying the global movement of people.

"Americans, the extreme paradox..many people hate them but at the same time many people envy them..and wished they were Also Americans."
It may be a paradox only to Americans. The first part of your sentence may be caused by the arrogance of believing the second part.

We must have a little ghost in this Forum..I dont have any idea why my previous post is showing once again.:)

robjame,
<It may be a paradox only to Americans. The first part of your sentence may be caused by the arrogance of believing the second part.>

FYI, I am not American but a European that Lives in the United States ..call me Arrogant if you want to, but I do believe what I have said in my previous post.

>>>FYI, I am not American but a European that Lives in the United States ..call me Arrogant if you want to, but I do believe what I have said in my previous post.<<<

I think everyone can speak only for him/herself. I tried living in the US, not intending to become American, just looking what it was really like. It didn´t take very long when it became crystal clear that it was not for me, and I came running back to Europe, and never looked back.

So kismetchimera, you really cannot present "many people envy them..and wished they were Also Americans" as some kind of universal truth.

kismet - I was very careful to say "the arrogance" not "your arrogance".

In my conversations with Europeans I ahve never had one say I envy Americans and I wish that I was Also American. I have heard people talk about envying the chattels, homes, salaries, and saying that they would like to move there - a difference I think.
Likewise I have never heard an American say that they envy the French, Germans, etc and that they wish they were also. They may envy the lifestyle....
As a European in the US are you wishing you were an American? ;;)

"My impression of Europe, especially Continental Europe, is that young people are offered a much more limited choice of beliefs and belief systems that are considered politically and socially acceptable.'

for example ????

rojame, my heart and my soul will always belongs to Rome, my beautiful native city..and the only envy that I have is for the Romans that still live in there...:)
However, I must say that you ask me a good question..however I live here so that exempt me to answer it, therefore I pledge the Fifth Amendment..:)

"Switzerland is going through a mild debate on daycare. It's still frowned upon by many Swiss. Goes against traditional values.

Even lunch at schools is frowned upon. Children should go home for lunch and be with their mothers"

And Switzerland is totally unrealistic to the economical realities of young families today. I am American and live in Switzerland and just today had lunch with a British co-worker who has a son with autism and she and her husband both HAVE to work to pay for their exorbitantly expensive housing and special schooling for their son. And she has to hire someone to have lunch with him every day as they don't live close enough to Lausanne for her to go home every day. Nor would she find a decent paying job in her hometown close to the French border.

Not many of the young mothers that I work with have the luxury of staying home with their children today and society just better face up to the fact that they have priced stay-at-home mothers into just a nice nostalgic memory and help them out.

Ooh - I missed so much by being out today!

elina - CNN hired the South Carolina idiot to do a geography spot on their website. And people are defending her and finding her amusing on YouTube (check the comments). I guarantee that she'll be on some reality TV program in the next year. She's totally milking her poor education and pretty hair.

PatrickLondon - I really appreciate what you said about not feeling ashamed of decisions made by other people in my country.

It's just so frustrating. These people (elected by the few) are destroying countries and killing people, draining our money, ruining the environment and creating a whole new generation of neocons by sabotaging education. And it's our country's fault.

Our founding fathers wanted our citizens to be free. They just didn't count on the fact that they'd use that freedom to be stupid and spread misinformation.

But I'm also mad at liberals. My friends and I donated time, energy, thought and money to the Democratic campaign in the last elections. Very few Americans can say that. Unlike the religious right that forced their congregations to go to the polls, we did very little.

I hope anyone who reads this thread and realizes that they did nothing more than vote or maybe donate a few dollars needs to do more.

(P.S. I haven't been to a McDonald's or a Wal*Mart in years... blech!)

Elina, I'm not pulling this out to start an abortion debate at all but:

&quot;They can have an abortion if they want one, and <b>nobody protests outside the clinic.</b>&quot;

I get the impression &amp; maybe I'm wrong but you're all for protest as long as it's protesting against things you don't like. The US was all about protest in the 60's &amp; seems to be applauded on this thread. But a conservative protest is wrong?

I have no problem with protests as long as they're not terrifying young girls in difficult situations and/or blowing up clinics and killing doctors (which is what they seem to do on a regular basis).

Funny how the word &quot;protest&quot; can have such different meanings from group to group.