For everyone's info who may not be completely familiar with the device, here's a short article:

http://www.x-gadget.com/articles/56/...-Knee-Defender

Here is a picture of the "Knee Defender" device:

http://www.kneedefender.com/images2/...pass_2_lrg.jpg

So far, Northwest Airlines has banned the device. Other airlines may not have firm policies yet.

Good for Northwest. I think that cmeyer54 summed it up best; the device really isn't necessary if everyone involved displayed some common courtesy. Now if they will just ban the use of cell phones on flights! I saw several news clips discussing the POSSIBLE use of cells phones during flights. I don't know about anyone else, but the last thing I want to do on a flight is listen to someone's inane phone conversation. I can just hear it now "Hi! I'm on the plane now, what are you doing?" Just seems like another crutch for insecure people who can't make a move without discussing it with someone one. I honestly can't think of anything so important that it can't wait until you land - you can't do anything about it up in the air anyway, what are you going to do - get off?

One major flaw of the Knee Defenders... looks like you have to keep your tray table down when using it - another encroachment of space.

Are some of you kidding me? I would really like to know, as well, what airlines you fly with on which they have seats that recline to within 5 inches of your face! I'm obviously flying the wrong ones! If reclining my seat those extra 2 to 3 inches helps me get some rest, then you better believe I will be doing it! I've probably just worked for 17 hours and will need to land and go right back to work for another 17 hours!!

<b>C'mon airlines! Get with it!</b>

Don't you see the revenue potential for selling seat pitch? Just set up three or four sections of the cabin with different amounts of leg room (let your overpaid Operations Research mavens figure out how many of each) and price-point the offering.

Cheez, do I have to do <i>everything</i> for you?

<b>Robespierre</b>,

Some airlines tried it in different forms.

AA had MRTC for no extra charge - guess what? It didn't make it, AA is putting seats back as their sales were no different than the other major airlines flying without MRTC.

There was a start up, based in Vegas few years ago that started &quot;business&quot; class seating only - didn't make it - gone!!

Midwest Airlines - earning praises every year for their roomy, leather covered, wide (2x2 instead of the normal 2x3) seating - bankruptcy, although still flying. I think (not sure) they did convert their seating to &quot;normal&quot;

So as you could see, people are NOT willing to pay, even the nominal charge, to have more comfort. They want cheap, cheap, cheap, what I call the &quot;Wal-Mart&quot; fare and then bitch about the comfort later.

It's sad, but it's true!

At 6'-4&quot; I'm glad I can usually get an upgrade. If I'm in coach and somebody puts their seat back, I'm forced to spread my legs with one in the aisle and the other in the middle seat area. Most people are pretty nice about it when I ask if they would mind not reclining, but I do occasionaly run into people like MichelleNYC who feel their &quot;comfort&quot; is the uppermost consideration. Since the airlines are not likely to change, I guess all us tall folks just have to rely on the goodness of most of our fellow human beings.

Jack: I'm sorry that you're so tall and experience discomfort when someone reclines their seat those extra couple of inches. Ok, well what do you suggest then when I need to sleep (do I need to repeat myself re: having worked 17 hours and needing to work another 17?) and you need to keep your legs in front of you? I guess I should protest to my firm that they should pony up the extra money for me to fly business so that I can get some sleep? Or perhaps I should just suck it up, not sleep and sit completely upright like all the other respectful passengers? My apologies for my harsh tone but this issue really burns me up.

When you buy a ticket in cattle class you do so knowing the seats (including yours) recline and the person in front of you may exercise that option, as can you. If you want more space, fly first class. Is that fair to taller people? No, but life isn't fair. We may be sympathetic, but we all have our issues/crosses/problems. That doesn't mean we should retaliate against those who do not share our problems.

You know folks, I never have had a problem asking the flight attendant to tell the guy in front of me to put his seatback up when food was being served.
It is policy for all airlines to do this. I even saw a flight attendant wake up a guy to tell him to move his seat back to the upright position, because food was being served, and the person behind him needed to have their space to properly consume the meal.

I certainly agree during food service but the rest of the time.... sorry.

Although this issue continues to be hotly debated on fodors, in all my miles flown, no one has EVER requested I put my seat back up. I do recline, although not during meals, and not always all the way. But to sleep on an international flight after the meal service? Yep, I recline as far as I can and have never had a peep from the person behind me. (If they asked, I'd have to compromise.)

Therefore my own experience (as opposed to the debate on here) leads me to conclude that people generally expect the person in front of them to recline their seat.

One more small point: when the seat in front of you comes flying back suddenly, please be aware that the person may not have intended for that to happen. Sometimes the seat mechanism does not operate smoothly, or the person may not be an experienced flyer.

So let's cut each other a little slack and try to work things out like civilized adults.

From what I've read so far, it just comes down to common courtesy - some people have it and some don't. I can certainly understand why people would want to recline on a lengthy international flight or a red eye. But why anyone has to put their seat back on a flight lasting a few hours during the day is beyond me. I especially laughed when I read the posters telling tall people that if they didn't like it, they should pay for first class. Now that's a real compassionate approach.

Like some of the other posters, I am tall. I know the discomfort of having to sit several hours in coach, which is only made worse by recliners. Until now, AA hasn't been too bad, but United is just plain ridiculous. It would be much nicer if people would be a little more considerate of their fellow man. But after what I've read here, I really don't believe anyone is going to change these people's minds.

Flyertalk had a recent thread started by a poster who paid someone to switch to his less desirable seat. The other guy was happy to do it for $50.

I could just see this approach taking off, as it were. Overly wide passengers could pay seatmates for an inch of seat spaces. Overly tall passengers could pay the person in front of them not to recline. And so on.

Wow!! I'm so surprised that people feel that people shouldn't recline. I'm with CD- the planes are made that way to give people optimum (I use the term loosly) comfort on a flight. My husband is 6'6&quot; and barely fits, the planes fault? nope- we usually try to go business class so he has extra room, or get the exit row/bulkhead. We know people recline. I RECLINE. Right after take off!! I can't stand to sit straight up. I sit up when meals come or if someone asks me politly for a short amount of time (working on laptop, still eating, etc.)

What if someone was reading next to you and the light was bright, is that their fault? Should they turn it off for you?

I agree with those that say if you need it to be a certain way then buy a different class. If you don't want to or can't afford to then don't take it out on the rest of us.

I guarantee that if someone used that no recline thing on my seat I'd have the flight attendant reciting the passanger rights to them ASAP!

I'm still very surprised about this topic though! Who knew????

I think cmeyer54 had a good idea about mentioning to the person in front of you to put up his/her seat so you could get the air sickness bag. But just a supposition, what if you didn't even have time to ask them to put up their seat? What a mess.

I find it fascinating that most of the posters defending the right to recline are women. Is it because they don't suffer from the same discomfort as taller males? Whoever said that women were the kinder, gentler of the species apparently never ran into these women.

Personally, I've had it all. The overweight seatmates, the smelly seatmates (perfume or otherwise), the crying children, the brats kicking the back of your seat, or the seatmate that just won't shut up. But having a seat reclined in your face for several hours is the most constant and the more annoying and just plain uncomfortable experience one can have. I wish I could afford to always fly first class, but I can't. I guess I'm just stuck with the rest of you.

Silly people, it's so obvious! If the person in the first row reclines, then by Dominoes' Law, everyone behind must recline. Then if the person in the last row complains to the FA that a meal cannot be consumed, then everyone from back to front must put the seat back up. When the AIRLINES made the decision to put the seats closer together than can accommodate reclining the back, they guaranteed that Domino Law -- and it's their fault, not the person in front of you.

I try to keep it upright for meals and recline only 1/2 way if things seem really tight in the cabin, but I doubt if I ever get points for that from the person behind me. Should I turn around and say, &quot;I want you to know, I'm not reclining the seatback all the way out of consideration for you&quot;? I'll probably get a &quot;hopscotch&quot; in that seat who thinks he &quot;owns&quot; the space into which my seat was DESIGNED to go.

And for the record, I've always assumed that the airline seats were actually designed for taller males, because frankly, as short and relatively (!) narrow as I am, those seats are terribly uncomfortable for me because of where the head/neck rest &quot;bumps&quot; are: they hit me in the back of the head and if I don't recline the seat and find support for my neck, I spend the flight forced to look down at my knees the whole time.

Flying is punishing for everyone in coach -- by design.

Wow, ET. If you want to turn this into a battle of the sexes, let me remind you that it's usually men who have to sit with their legs spread wide apart, infringing on others' space in a movie theatre or on public transport even when they've got plenty of room in front. And it's usually men who walk down the street as if they own the sidewalk, forcing women to dart and dodge around them.
Do some observing and you'll see I'm right. Maybe in this case women are just taking the space that's rightfully theirs?

Seriously, I'm a tall woman and a mite claustrophobic. I despise it when the person in front of me in a plane - often a man - reclines fully. I hate that. Just like I hate sitting beside a large person, or a small person who infringes on my space. (Oh I might as well face it - I'll really only be happy when the entire plane is empty save for me and some attentive FAs, and pilots of course :) ).

If the airlines won't increase the legroom in economy class, we have no choice but to put up with it. Helps contribute to that air rage!

What gets me... when you have to get out of your seat when the seat in front of you is reclined and the person gives <i>you</i> a dirty look if you have to hold onto the top of his/her seat to pry yourself out of the seat-sandwich.

I politely say &quot;sorry&quot; but I'm thinking &quot;I wouldn't have to disturb you if you didn't have your seat reclined into my lap!&quot; :)

Sorry Taggie, I'm not trying to turn this into a battle of the sexes. I was just commenting on my surprise that the majority of the posters above who were defending the right to recline were women. I guess I expected it to be men.

Anyway, I'm sure that tall women suffer the same way as men do. I just don't understand the selfish attitude of some of these posters. Even when they know that there is a tall person behind them, they could care less. All they seem to care about is whether they are comfortable. Its just such a selfish attitude defended solely on the basis that they bought their seat and they can do whatever they like with it. Its really sad there are people like that, male or female.

ET, I actually think you are being somewhat one-sided. It is not only the &quot;recliners&quot; who hold a take-no-prisoners attitude. From reading this thread I think you can divide people into two groups.

No, not those who recline or don't recline.

Rather, those who say &quot;to hell with the other guy&quot; -- whether it is someone who insists on reclining no matter what the circumstances or someone who sneezes on or otherwise annoys the recliner, no matter what the circumstances, AND those who try to be considerate or compromise to help out a fellow human being.

I'm a recliner. If you ask me (nicely), I'll put my seat partway up. If you get physically aggressive, I'll consider myself at war and behave appropriately.

I thought more people would be against reclining the seats all the way back. Personally, it annoys the hell out of me. I remember once on a flight to NY the guy in front of me didn't want a meal, and during meal time reclined his seat all the way back so my meal table was actually digging into my stomach. I don't see how that can be viewed as anything but rude, inconsiderate and selfish. He had the attitude that he paid for his seat, so he could do what he wanted. Fine, but I also paid for my seat and I should be able to eat my meal and sit in relative comfort. I'm an average sized, 5'5 female and I'm uncomfortable when the person in front reclines, so I dread to think what it's like for tall people. Having the 'I paid for my seat and I can do what I want' attitude IS selfish IMO. Everyone paid for their seat, so that is a very weak argument. Compromises have to be made. If I see the person behind me is tall I will never recline, even if it would make me more comfortable. Sometimes you have to think of other people, a concept which seems lost on many travellers today.

People, you still don't get it. BOTH recliner and reclinee paid for their seats. BOTH recliner and reclinee are entitled to fly in comfort. BOTH recliner and reclinee can be made uncomfortable because of the actions and attitudes of the other -- one if the seat doesn't recline and the other if it does.

It stuns me that there seem to be people who assume that their comfort and &quot;rights&quot; automatically trump the other person's, logic to the contrary. It definitely goes both ways and the only solution within our control (and not the airlines') is compromise.

Meanwhile, the inventor of the knee-defenders erroneously assumes that the rights of one set of people always and absolutely outranks the others' -- and was willing to disable the proper functioning of the seats to assert those &quot;rights.&quot; How many people can claim they've proudly marketed a device designed to hamper or break part of a public vehicle and interfere with other's comfort just to assert their own?

Walter, yes, I &quot;never ever feel the need to recline (my) own seat no matter what the circumstances&quot;. I never have; &amp; these days, with a bad back, I anyway find it better for my back to sit as upright as possible at all times. And I'm a woman, short and still find it very claustrophobic when the person in front of me reclines their seat into my face.

Troll. ((b))

I can't imagine that these devices will last long in the marketplace! They sound like Christmas novelty items that our non-traveling relatives would purchase for us when they draw our name out of the exchange hat.

I also can't imagine being rude enough to use a device that will stop the passenger in front of you from reclining his or her seat. You purchase the ticket for the rental and full use of the seat. The seat reclines. QED: your purchase includes the recline function.

I do not believe we are morally or legally obligated to leave off reclining in our seats. That said, however, the guidelines of common courtesy so ably stated by many above should inform our behavior. Do not recline during meal service,
obviously. And if the person behind you is in some sort of distress and requests that you not recline fully, let your generous spirit guide your response.

I'm truly not an anti-recliner. I sometimes fly 16 hour segments in coach. It's not realistic to think people can sit up that entire time. But that has no bearing on what I feel I should do to properly consider those around me. &quot;Legal&quot; or &quot;rights&quot; have nothing to do with it. I believe the airlines are at fault, but I don't feel that lets me off the hook for anything I do past that, in a bad environment of someone else's creation.

I was on a 1 hour, 20 min flight the other day on one of those prop plans with a single seat down one side and two down the other. I was seated next to a seemingly pleasant business guy who happened to be pretty big/tall. Now, I never even realized the seats in those things reclined. Yet here was this little guy in front of him, pushing back the seat as hard as he could, banging on it and looking back with agitation because my seatmates knees would crush far enough for him. Poor guy looks over and whispers &quot;I guess I didn't need that knee cap anyway&quot;. The little guy in front of him proceeds to - not sleep - but to read. A lot of people just don't want to get involved in a confrontation with strangers.

I did a search through this thread. The word &quot;right&quot; (not used as a direction) appears 28 times so far. &quot;Responsibility&quot; or variants? Zero.

I have reported the above-posted scam artist to Fodors. (re: FredFalk)

I'm sorry but I just don't understand most of these complaints about the seat being &quot;in someone's lap&quot; when it is reclined. I must be in the wrong planes, because most of the coach seats I am in recline back a mere couple of inches. Hardly enough to be in someone's lap or face.

I recline my seat, and I feel I am entitled to do so. I fully expect the person in front of me to recline as well. I think its all a matter of common courtesy. I do not recline during meals, I do not just throw my seat back (I recline slowly), and I usually only recline while the cabin lights are off during overseas flights. However, if there is a person behind me that is very tall or has long legs that are on my seat back, I will not recline as I don't want to increase my comfort at the expense of others.

I tend to get slightly airsick during flights (even when taking Dramamine) so leaning my seat back and attempting some sleep is more comfortable. We all paid for our seats. I understand that it may be uncomfortable for the person behind me if my seat is fully reclined, but why is it fair to make them more comfortable and forget about my own comfort level? In my opinion, the seats are made to recline, so the person sitting in the seat is inclined to do just that.

This thread has been enlightening if not disheartening.

To sum up the pro-recliners points of view:

1. The airline seats recline, therefore I should be able to recline regardless of the effect it has on others.

2. The slight addition to my comfort is far more important than someone else's extreme discomfort.

3. If people don't like it, let them buy more expensive first or business class seats.

Wow!

And to sum up the anti-recliners point of view:

1. Even if the seats recline, they should never be made to recline.

2. The slight addition to my comfort is far more important than someone else's extreme discomfort.

3. If people don't like it, let them buy more expensive first or business class seats.

Wow!

Travelermebe and soccr have succinctly made the point that we all agree to disagree on this one. Time to move on to curing more of the world's ills.
((H))

Scenario: Recent trip to Vancouver (5 hours in length) aboard an Airbus 321. Seated in Row 26, right hand side. Row 25 in front is an exit row and because there is a lavatory directly in front of that row, there is approximately 4 feet of legroom for the lucky seat holders of row 25 with no one in front of them to recline into &quot;their&quot; space.

The very second that the seatbelt light was extinguished the &quot;gentleman&quot; in front of me slammed his seat back as far and as hard as he could. (No - my knees weren't in the way - I'm only 5'2.) That wasn't good enough. For 10 minutes he kept banging against the back of his seat trying to get another millimetre of recline out of it. (This was repeated several times during the flight). At no time during the 5 hour flight did he raise the seat. No - he didn't sleep, and yes - he partook of all beverage, snack and meal services - all in full recline. Half of the time he wasn't even using much of the seat at all as he was leaned into the seat of his female companion nuzzling her ears (of which activity I had a dandy view for waaay too much time). I can't recline my seat as a herniated disk means that I must sit upright as much as possible.

Was I physically uncomfortable? - not really. Was I mentally distressed? - definitely. It was hugely claustrophobic, cutting my food was difficult at best, finding space for drinks was also difficult. Reading (my usual escape from an awkward situation) was a strain as the reclined seat threw a shadow over my book. And the bozo was really annoyed when I had to grab the back of his seat in order to lever myself out to go to the lavatory! This wasn't a guy who didn't know any better either. The conversations he had with others indicated a very frequent flyer. (He was also abrupt and overbearing to a very pleasant FA during the whole flight.)

Did I say anything? Not a peep! From the first slam back, it was apparent that this was someone with a huge &quot;me first&quot; attitude and asking politely for him to raise his seat a bit would almost certainly have been met with outright refusal. Then what?

The really bad news? We had the same seats coming back from Vancouver and a nearly identical replay of the same situation with another &quot;me first&quot; guy.

This sort of thing is just becoming more and more common in our society. You see it everday driving and in shopping malls. You can apportion blame to the airline economics, but if we don't mostly have consideration and respect for one another, it's gonna get ugly somehow. Is the &quot;my space and time are really important and yours is worthless&quot; attitude a purely North American phenomenom?

&quot;Is the &quot;my space and time are really important and yours is worthless&quot; attitude a purely North American phenomenom? &quot;

The answer is No. A few years back I had a French woman (who could not have been more than five feet tall) slam her seat back as soon as she could on the flight from Paris to L.A.. Never raised it until we were going to land (not even during food service). Thank God for free wine.
((H))

saharabee,

Your story reminded me of an incident I had years ago. The plane wasn't in the air before the guy in front of me slammed his seat back so hard into my knees that I yelped in pain. He jumped up out of his seat and gave me a darn ugly look, for a few seconds. I stared him down, or he noticed my size, I don't know which. Fortunately he didn't recline after that.

My defense since then has been to jam my knees up against the seat in front of me so that it can't recline. When the person stops trying to recline the seat, which sometimes takes a while, I can move my knees around. I prefer to sit up in a plane and can't recall the last time I reclined my seat.

Those who believe that just because the seat is designed to recline feel that they have the right to do it regardless of other passengers are rude and selfish. If they need to recline they could take another seat which has nobody sitting behind it, unless they are admittedly rude and selfish and couldn't be bothered to show an ounce of courtesy.

To suggest that those of us who need knee room, which we pay for, fly in business class is a total cop out. I can't afford it. I buy my domestic tickets through hotwire.com and fly for half the price of economy. Perhaps those who need to recline should fly business class where they won't bother anyone. Any volunteers?

soccr
Not being able to recline causes someone extreme discomfort. Come on.

Although I like the egalitarian and even-tempered spirit of answers like Cassandra's, I don't think ANYONE, strictly speaking, is unconditionally entitled to fly at all, let alone entitled to fly in comfort.

We might all HOPE to fly in comfort: some of us, in a testament to the value of hope over experience, might EXPECT to fly in comfort; those who lack management skills (not to say maturity) possibly DEMAND to fly in comfort - but as for what we are actually entitled to get, my guess is that the pickings are slim.

The contract into which we enter with the airline is to be taken from point A to point B. While the airline might make claims about the comfort level offered, I don't think one is guaranteed any degree of comfort.

As for health and safety, I don't doubt that it is uncomfortable for people with back problems not to be able to recline; nor do I doubt that it is more uncomfortable for people who are over a certain height to be behind someone who reclines. However, the implication that one is entitled to fly without aggravating problems related to one's height or pre-existing back problem just can't be true: it has been long understood that flying can put various stresses on the body (ear problems, etc.) over which the airline has little control. The airline can alter the pitch of the seats; it can install seats that recline x amount, y amount or not at all; and of course, the equipment supplied must be as specified. However, even as a lay person I doubt that there is a legal definition of 'comfort'.

The health situation is probably just as murky. If, for example, one's herniated disk is aggravated by an inability to recline, I doubt the airline would be liable. And while I don't mean to dismiss the discomfort of tall fliers, I've yet to read any instance in the medical literature of someone who actually sustained a verifiable injury to their kneecap because of someone reclining. The airline must get its passengers to the destination in one piece, as spelled p-i-e-c-e, not p-e-a-c-e. :)

There is, for better or worse, no guarantee that we will never be disappointed or aggravated. The world does not owe us a living, much less a comfortable seat.

Ira,
You are so polite... I had a man who sat in front of me, and leaned back practically in my lap, but worse, he kept bouncing in his seat to get comfortable. That was a very long flight :-)

Sandy

For the issue over the seatback device, I would think if on bought a seat they should be allowed to fully recline it. However, I feel for everyone including myself being caught up with annoying UNTHINKING passengers on flights. Now if its an overnight flight, everyone needs to fully recline their seats for maximum (which is minimum!) comfort....however, this should only be done after meal time. Then there's that idiot on a short daytime flight that as soon as we are airborne throws it back, now thats obnoxious.
I've always thought the airlines should run a similar message like wiping the washbasin with your handtowel after use but also put your seatbacks upright during mealtimes! Also doesn't it annoy anyone else when the person behind you goes to get up and grabs the back of your seat and then you get catapulted! Especially if a long flight and you're asleep! Now thats obnoxious!