Fodor's Travel Talk Forums

Fodor's Travel Talk Forums (https://www.fodors.com/community/)
-   Europe (https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/)
-   -   Advice on apartment rental in Paris (https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/advice-on-apartment-rental-in-paris-1676122/)

bvlenci Jan 9th, 2020 02:06 AM

You can use Google Translate to get a fairly decent translation.

I ended up staying in Bagnolet, right on the border of the 20° arrondissment. Bagnolet, as far as I could determine, has no regulations about short-term rentals.

Envierges Jan 9th, 2020 06:55 AM

"Bagnolet, as far as I could determine, has no regulations about short-term rentals"

Not so..


Although distance from the center lessens an owner's chances of being caught, Paris suburban rentals are regulated as in the quote below from:one of many sources on the web
https://www.morningcroissant.com/hel...-in-france-114

In some cities, the rental of your secondary residence (i.e. pied-ą-terre) requires the prior authorization or temporary authorization of the municipal government to modify the use of your accommodation within the premises intended for the tourist rental. It may concern:
- Municipalities of more than 200,000 inhabitants,
- The communes of the inner-ring suburbs of Paris (the departments of Hauts-de-Seine, Seine-Saint-Denis, and Val-de-Marne),
- Municipalities of more than 50,000 inhabitants forming part of the so-called stretched areas (with a high imbalance between supply and demand for housing).

bvlenci Jan 9th, 2020 09:05 AM

I did a careful search specifically for Bagnolet, and the only restrictions I could find applied to longer-term rentals, and were intended to make sure all rental properties that would be the primary resident of the tenant were up to standard. This is the where I got that idea:

https://www.ville-bagnolet.fr/index...._de_louer.html

If I missed some other restriction, it was not due to carelessness. Is it impossible to find a legal apartment in the Paris area unless you're a real estate lawyer?

Sarastro Jan 9th, 2020 09:21 AM


Originally Posted by Iwan2go (Post 17041382)
Paris vacation apartments. They’re legal. The Luxury two bedroom is beautiful, located on the gardens of the Palais Royal. Good luck!

An apartment’s being a legal rental or not has nothing to do with the company renting it. Paris Vacation Apartments may or may not be a legal entity but the apartments they rent are a different matter entirely.


Originally Posted by Envierges (Post 17041745)
The apartment linked to is indeed lovely and in a super location, but I do have two concerns.
1. The registration number according to law should be shown on the website
2. The apartment is rented for way more than 120 days/year. Check the calendar

What's the deal?

Some ground floor apartments have no short term rental restrictions. There are a handful of apartments legally rented short term in the city. Paris Perfect has a few of these but if you do not see a registration number, consider the property illegal.


Originally Posted by Envierges (Post 17041768)
I'm having trouble understanding these rentals.

From the link furnished by Macross
"As we travel a lot, checkmyguest is helping us to manage our airbnbs"

How can this be? A legal rental can only be one's primary residence rented for less than 120 days/year, In the above case airbnbs is plural. These people have plural primary residences? Again how can this be?

Flagrantly illegal. The city will eventually catch up with them making them high risk rentals in my view.


Originally Posted by thursdaysd (Post 17041781)
PVA's website says: "Please note that all our apartments have a Paris official registration license number. It can be sent to you upon request. "

Can think of no good reason why the number is not on the apartment listing.

I can think of one. The owner is hiding from the city and does not want to add fraud (misrepresenting an apartment) to potential charges of renting illegally.


Originally Posted by Iwan2go (Post 17042025)
I actually emailed Alex at PVA to ask why the registration number isn’t listed, and he said exactly what one of you said - people cheat and put the number on their own rentals. He does have the number for each apartment, and they’re legal. And they’re rented more than 120 days per year because they are not primary residences - they are strictly business rentals. Hope that answers some of your concerns.

The law clearly states that the registration number must be visible in any advertisement. An owner himself has zero risk if someone steals his registration number and uses it somewhere elsewhere.

All that is important to an owner is that:
  1. he is the primary, full time occupant of the apartment
  2. he rents it fewer than 120 days annually
  3. he has registered with the city
  4. the registration number is clearly visible on any advertisement or solicitation.
Effectively, the registration number is used by the city to audit owners and evaluate their compliance with the city“s rental laws.

There are a few business rentals in Paris. It is very expensive and difficult to get these licensed in Paris which is why there are fewer than 170 in the city. You can check the building addresses (not the apartments themselves) in which these apartments are located using this city website.

apersuader65 Jan 9th, 2020 10:49 AM


Originally Posted by thursdaysd (Post 17041781)
PVA's website says: "Please note that all our apartments have a Paris official registration license number. It can be sent to you upon request. "

Can think of no good reason why the number is not on the apartment listing.

You can go by their Paris office at 86 Blvd. de Clichy in the 18th and ask. So can the authorities. I suspect that it is because their apartments are not likely even residential, but in fact approved as commercial, which is why they don't have to follow the registration requirements generally, just like hotels don't have to follow them.

Judy Jan 9th, 2020 10:55 AM

I checked on the city website linked above and all of the addresses I've rented from PVA are on that list. In instances where I know they have multiple units in a building, that is noted on the above list. I'm sure there are many I am not aware of but I am comfortable renting from this agency

Envierges Jan 9th, 2020 11:04 AM

"Is it impossible to find a legal apartment in the Paris area unless you're a real estate lawyer?"

No. Booking.com openly states that all the apartment rentals listed on the Booking.com site are legal. One can also find the 13 digit regis. number openly on the website listing involved. It's required by law. The law is there to help. If the listing doesn't have the regis. number. it's most likely illegal.

Sarastro Jan 9th, 2020 11:21 AM


Originally Posted by Envierges (Post 17042975)
Booking.com openly states that all the apartment rentals listed on the Booking.com site are legal. One can also find the 13 digit regis. number openly on the website listing involved. It's required by law. The law is there to help. If the listing doesn't have the regis. number. it's most likely illegal.

I agree that a missing registration number is indicative of an illegal rental. However, the fact that an apartment has a number does not mean it is legal, it only suggests that it is legal. A registered apartment must be the owner“s primary address, and he may not rent his apartment for an excess of 120 days annually.

It is entirely possibly to register a vacation home as a rental but doing so does not make the apartment legal for renting. Vacation homes are not, by definition, primary residents. Eventually, the city will catch up with those fraudulently registering apartments which are not primary residents. In the meantime, all anyone can do is assume that an apartment with a registration number is legal.

melaly Jan 9th, 2020 12:50 PM

Thank you for the PVA recommendation. They definitely look beautiful. Unfortunately there is limited availability and they are quite expensive approx. $500 USD/night which is approx $650 CDN. Far too much for us!

melaly Jan 9th, 2020 12:56 PM

Thank you for your recommendation on Citadine. Unfortunately they don't have any 2 bedrooms available. I like the suggestion of aparthotels which I will search to see if there are others. Does anyone know of others they would recommend.

melaly Jan 9th, 2020 01:13 PM

Thank you Envierges for the booking.com suggestion. Where on the site does it state that all the apartment rentals are legal? I can't seem to find it. This is definitely a good option as they have a lot more choices and prices seem to be more reasonable for some.

AJPeabody Jan 9th, 2020 01:32 PM

https://en.parisinfo.com/where-to-sl...is/aparthotels

Envierges Jan 9th, 2020 02:13 PM

My understanding is that Booking.com will not accept listings that are not legal and I have never heard comments otherwise. The registration number should be posted.

https://partner.booking.com/en-us/he...nd-regulations

menachem Jan 9th, 2020 09:29 PM


Originally Posted by Envierges (Post 17043124)
My understanding is that Booking.com will not accept listings that are not legal and I have never heard comments otherwise. The registration number should be posted.

https://partner.booking.com/en-us/he...nd-regulations

For Amsterdam booking has certainly accepted short let listings that were illegal.

bvlenci Jan 10th, 2020 12:03 AM


Originally Posted by Envierges (Post 17042975)
"Is it impossible to find a legal apartment in the Paris area unless you're a real estate lawyer?"

No. Booking.com openly states that all the apartment rentals listed on the Booking.com site are legal. One can also find the 13 digit regis. number openly on the website listing involved. It's required by law. The law is there to help. If the listing doesn't have the regis. number. it's most likely illegal.

I rented this appartment through booking.com. There are no registration numbers for Bagnolet.

bvlenci Jan 10th, 2020 12:30 AM


Originally Posted by melaly (Post 17043066)
Thank you for your recommendation on Citadine. Unfortunately they don't have any 2 bedrooms available. I like the suggestion of aparthotels which I will search to see if there are others. Does anyone know of others they would recommend.

I'm sorry, I made a mistake. The 2-bedroom apartment I was considering was in the Adagio chain, not Citadine. It was this:

https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/pvb...ont.en-gb.html

Enter 5 people and request 1 room to see the 2-bedroom apartment.


KayF Jan 10th, 2020 01:17 AM

We stayed in a hotel room last year in Paris with a small kitchenette. If you need a proper kitchen, with full facilities, that wouldn't work but we could put together a simple meal easily. Especially as there was a Marks and Spencer just down the road that had a reasonable small supermarket. Monoprix also nearby from memory. The hotel was Hotel Excelsior Latin. I think we had a fridge, microwave, kettle, plates, cutlery etc but no cooking equipment like pots and pans. There must be other hotels around with kitchenettes, if this would work for you. I just noticed they have a family suite but our room was a normal queen type room, though more spacious than we expected.

https://www.excelsior-paris-hotel.com/rooms
Kay

dreamon Jan 10th, 2020 02:03 AM

Agree with Kay that the number of hotels with basic kitchenettes is slowly growing and a viable alternative if needed. booking.com allows you to filter by 'hotels' and 'self catering' or 'kitchen'.

Macross Jan 10th, 2020 03:55 AM

I would still go with airbnb, did you look at the one I posted? What area do you want to be in?
Airbnb is teaming up with the Olympics to house people in Paris. Explain that.

Envierges Jan 10th, 2020 04:26 AM

'Airbnb is teaming up with the Olympics to house people in Paris'

Paris and Mayor Hidalgo are furious. Another development that will be interesting to watch.

Something else to think about in the light of this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...r-and-tourists
https://parispropertygroup.com/blog/...s-real-estate/

Is a city a museum for tourists or a residence for citizens...can it be both? My neighborhood at the outskirts of Paris has become much livelier as people move from central Paris. Paris is dynamic and changing at its outer edges, while a tourist ghetto is being created in the center.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:13 PM.