I know that i will get flamed but tipping has become my pet peeve. I have been on my own rant for the past feww months. I live on the east coat where dinner for four can cost us 400.00 plus including drinks and coffee. Why is it i must then add about 75-100 dollars to this for the staff. Shouldn't it be the restuarant owners responsibility to pay his staff ? When i go to shops and large stores i don't have to pay the clerks who wait on me, do i ? So why am i paying for the meal and the staff. I think it's time that restaurant owners start paying to run there own businesses, just like all other business owners. <BR> Could you imagine going into to Ralph Lauren on Madison Avenue buying a 3000.00 suit and then having to give the clerk an additional 600.00 just for selling it to you and carring it to the register ? Or going to the drug store for a prescription and having to tip the pharmacist 20% for putting it in the bottle . No , no one would do it.

I agree with many folks here. Sometimes I feel like I'm being held hostage by restaurant owners. Is is really OUR responsibility to provide enough money for a decent wage? I'd abolish the practice. <BR> <BR>Seems I often hear how waitstaff is paid so poorly, but he/she made $300 in tips that night. Doesn't sound so bad, does it? <BR> <BR>

Why is it that servers are quick to clear your plates away before everyone has finished? Is this to insure a quick turnover of tables? When I go to a nice restaurant, I like to take my time and enjoy my meal. It seems that is becoming increasingly a problem from the noise factor to the quick hand of servers scuttling plates away.

I hate tipping. There. I said it. <BR> <BR>But I also think one should tip even when the tip is large because the bill is large. Let's face it. The cost of the meal is the cost plus the service. Whether one pays it directly or in the form of higher menu prices isn't really that important. The cost of a suit is the suit plus the tax. The cost of the car is the car plus the tags. The price of expensive art is the art plus the auction fee. People pay those "add-ons" without batting an eye, so leave the darn tip already.

Hey Brown L., <BR> <BR>I have worked in every kind of restaurant/bar there is. The ONLY place I ever made $300 per night was Hooters. And it had nothing to do with the food or the service. <BR> <BR>And to Chuck. What a great idea. Let's leave the dirty dishes all over the table for you to enjoy! Why didn't I think of that? Personally, I get a little peeved when servers DON'T clear dirty dishes. You could try McDonald's. There you can clear your own wrappers and spend as much time as you'd like! <BR> <BR>Turn 'em and burn 'em, that's what I always say!! <BR> <BR>Thanks Cindy!

<BR>I don't mind tipping, though I find it a rather puzzling practice, so full of little intrincacies and variations from place to place. <BR> <BR>One thing that I do mind, is the whole percentage thing. In many places (particularly in Europe), there's a service charge per PERSON, irregardles of what people ate. I find that reasonable (except that you HAVE to pay it, and it no longer reflects your opinion on the service). <BR> <BR>Let's say that two people go in a restaurant. One of them has two cokes, a burger (or any other "cheap" dish) and a bowl of ice cream. The other has a Campari orange, a glass of wine, the most expensive entree in the restaurant and an expensive dessert. Same trips to the table, right? Why is one of them going to pay twice (or more) in tips? <BR> <BR>"He/she can afford it!", someone might say. So then, the tip should reflect your income? <BR> <BR>That is rather confusing...

4 things: <BR> <BR>1. Service in Europe is absolutely horrible, because they aren't expecting a decent tip, if any. Do we want that here in the US? <BR>2. I found that as a waiter it was easy to make over $400 during the weekend at a good restaurant. It was hard work, but a fantastic wage for uneducated workers. <BR>3. Does anyone besides me have a problem with the $2 service charge + 17% tip automatically added to room service at hotels these days? <BR>4. I do tip well for good service, at least 20%.

Whoa vodo4: <BR>Where did you get the idea that waitstaff is "undereducated"??? <BR>Many people I know have found that waiting tables in a decent place beats working in an office anyday...And how many people work there way through school and then decide that the restaurant business is not so bad after all!

Two people want to list their houses for sale. One is a modest home. One is a mansion. The same things have to be done to sell each house (open houses, inspections, paperwork, etc.). The person selling the mansion pays a much larger fee to the agent, although the same service was performed -- the house got sold. <BR> <BR>Yet no one complains.

And where, Vodo, did you get the idea that "service in Europe is absolutely horrible?" I've never found that to be true as a generalization. Service in Europe is more understated than in the USA but how many people really enjoy the "Hi! I'm Todd, your waitperson and I'm going to reel off 17 specials that will make your brain freeze, and if you're lucky I might sit down and have a drink and get to know you, too" approach? NOT that that is the m.o. in all restaurants, of course, but service is definitely more casual in the USA. I like the way that being a waiter in Europe is a profession, and think it encourages a more professional attitude, despite the tipping situation.

I recently returned from a trip to Italy and would like to share some observations re to this subject. <BR>Every resturant added a 15% service charge to the bill and no one was expecting a tip. <BR>Never once did a waiter interupt our meal or conversation. Never once were the plates grabbed off our table. We were never given a bill until we asked for it. The waiters would watch the table from a distance and would not approach your table until we signaled them. And they were always watching if you needed them. You could sit as long as you wanted even after the resturant closed and no one ever rushed us. When we did decide to leave after we had paid the bill everyone it seemed from the owner to the dishwasher would thank you and wish you a good evening. This was whether we tipped or not. On one occasion when I rounded up my bill(about 5%) and paid on leaving ,the owner asked me to wait while he went and got our waiter and busboy and told them to thank me for my generosity. We ate at only inexpensive resturants. <BR> <BR>So maybe you guys could explain to me how the tipping system you describe is better. <BR> <BR>Gerry

I think what everyone fails to take into consideration is this: If a law were passed (for example), making restaurant owners absorb tips, prices would go up 20-25%, plus servers would be lucky to see half of that.

Lucy-You missed the point. I have been in nice places and have not even finished my dinner when the server swoops down and tries to grab my plate or the plates of my companions. I don't believe in languishing forever in a restaurant, but it would be nice to enjoy your dinner without feeling pressured to vacate the table....

I agree about the piccking up plates too early thing. I was at Smith and Wollensky's in Chicago this past weekend. It is a very nie and very expensive steakhouse. We met another couple there for dinner on Saturday and did not want to be rushed through. We had hoped to linger and visit while eating. Alas, before some of us could even finish our salads the server was picking up the plates. With the main course, she was to pick up plates the very instant you put your fork down and finished. Now I don't think dirty dishes should be left for hours or that we should lean up ourselves but I know this is sa ruse to rush customer through as fast as possible and get someone else in so they an get more tips. Well it backfired in this case as we lingered for coffe for sometime after the meal. Other times when I truly felt rushed by the server, I reduced their tip because of it, again the ruse backfires!

I don't think anybody appreciates being rushed through their meal. I don't, and I take great care to make sure my customers don't. But there are extremes. One evening I had a couple seated at one of my tables around 8:30pm.. We stopped seating the dining room at 10:00pm. They were finished with their desserts and after dinner drinks by around 10:45pm. No big deal considering the closing duties and things to take care of before you leave. They sat there until almost 1:00am. And I did continue to check from time to time to see if they needed anything(water, coffee, etc.). At that time the manager politely asked them to leave as even the coctail lounge was closing. At that point they stood up screaming that they had NEVER been treated so rudely in their entire lives! They were the only customers in the building for about an hour and a half. Needless to say $120.00(amt. of check) and 4 1/2 hours later I received no tip. I didn't and still don't think they were reasonable. There are extremes on both sides.

Or what about when they give you the check when you have barely finished your dessert and still waiting for your coffee? I have seen that happen only in the US... <BR> <BR>In most places in Europe you can sit down, order a coke, or a beer, or whatever, and nurse it for hours without anyone putting any pressure on you! I find that quite nice...

I have extremely mixed feelings on this subject. On the one hand, my left brain, "dollars-and-cents" side agrees with Mac. I don't know where some of you eat, but in my area, even chain family restaurants like Marie Callender's or Carrow's have gotten expensive, never mind the cost of fine dining. Therefore tips do in fact increase as the total bill increases. <BR> <BR>When I'm not computing percentages, however, I try to remember what someone once said to me: that tipping, whether in restaurants or hotels, or the car wash, is a valid form of "charity". In saying that I don't mean to insult any of the workers in these positions. Rather, I try to view this as a way to freely give money to someone because I want them to have it, because I can afford a meal out, because I know the individual who will benefit, because I know their base pay is inadequate. I work in an industry where it's routine for certain employees to subsidize the pay of other employees. Philosophically I may resent the system that depends on my goodwill, and suffers if I fall short, but the fact is that I am in a position to give, and that's my bottom line.

I don't have any problem with tipping the waitstaff. Although I do wish the US would adapt the "European method" and just tack the service charge onto the bill (saves me the time of doing the math). My pet peeve is when I go to Dunkin Donuts/Starbucks and they have that "tip cup" on the counter. Now I'm supposed to tip you for pouring me a cup of coffee and putting my donuts in a bag??? <BR> <BR>QUESTION: are you supposed to tip on the tax or on the subtotal (before tax)? For years I tipped 15% on the tax, but recently a friend said you should tip 15% on the subtotal pre-tax.

Erin, I don't know if there is an answer to that question. I've heard both are correct.

A friend who worked as a waitress in England said she never saw all the tip that was included in each meal price - it's sop for the owner to short change the waitstaff (my description of what happens, not hers). If that's the case, what exactly do the waitstaff earn? U.S. waitstaff get paid $3.30 an hour (assumption here, just for the sake of argument), then get tips, they make a living wage. No one's going to be buying jumbo CDs with that. Are waiters/waitresses in Europe in a similar financial situation? <BR> <BR>

I've never worried much about before/after tax. 15% of 8% is only 1.2%. <BR> <BR>As for the removal of plates, in a nice restaurant, plates of finished diners should never be removed until everyone has finished that course. That's standard waiter etiquette.

Elvira, did she make a salary or was she paid beans per hour? If she made a salary, the included tip pays that, in a roundabout way. Like in Germany, tax and service are included in the prices on the menu but the waiters make the same salary regardless of what is ordered. As far as buying jumbo CDs (I assume you're talking about saving for retirement) it's my impression that Europeans don't save for retirement like Americans. I think they assume they'll get a good pension from the government. I'm just guessing on that one but that seems to be the case with my German coworkers.

This thread is interesting - what a variety of opinions. Having worked briefly at waiting, and being really bad at it, I have a great appreciation for the job. Having eaten in VERY expensive first class establishments, VERY cheap, second-rate joints, and everything in between, my peeve isn't the tip, it's the staff. Except for the very top of the line and the occasional other, today's waitstaff is, usually, simply unprofessional. They don't know how to serve: reaching in front of a patron's face, asking the patron to hold something, splashing water on the table while pouring, asking, "you guys ready?" instead of "may I take your order?" unfamiliar with the menu and/or tossing it at the patron, not pulling out the chairs, forgetting the patron's request for salt/napkins/etc. Several posters have mentioned "standard" practice. These days, no one trains waitstaff so there is no standard. I don't think I'd let most of them serve my cat. Then their personal attributes: waitresses with black nail polish (it looks like a disease, dearie!), waiters with five o'clock shadows, visible tattooes (do they find their employees each day at the wharf?), chewing gum, poor posture, scratching, disinterest or the opposite, too too chatty. I travel so frequently for work in the U.S. and insist that meals not be grabbed at a fast food joint. I search out expensive restaurants, but I always leave shaking my head. I know it's hard work for little reward, and there are exceptions, but pride is seriously missing. Having said all that, I usually leave 15-20% as long as I'm not wearing anything I ordered when I walk out the door. And when I have a waiter who knows what s/he is doing - a real professional, I've been known to round up big time.

I'm somewhat offended by the person who implied that waiting tables is done by uneducated people. I've been waiting tables and bartending for 10 years, as I go to college and decide what I want to do with my life. I have a bachelors degree in social and behavioral sciences, however, I cannot find a job that will pay me the $1000+ per week that I make working 5 nights a week in a nice sports bar. I am now finishing another degree, this one in nursing, because it is the only job that I can find in this town where I will make at least as much as I am now. Thank God I love nursing. <BR> <BR>Have you all not heard what the word "tips" stands for? <BR>To <BR>Insure <BR>Proper <BR>Serice <BR> <BR>An overeducated bartender

I agree with the person who had no interest in complaining to management, the kitchen, or anyone else. I just won't be back, and I sure as hell am not going to be generous with a tip. Why should I? Out of pity for the waiter and his $3.30/hour base wage lot in life? A. Wait staff do just fine, thank you very much (see $1000/week above), and B. I can think of more worthy charities anyway. <BR> <BR>If the waiter is competent, he can find a position in a restaurant more worthy of his talents and make tips hand over fist, and (not that I care, but) management will get the message through inability to retain good staff. <BR> <BR>If the waiter really wanted to ensure my enjoyment, he would have warned me not to eat there.

In 1998, median hourly earnings (not including tips) of full-time waiters and waitresses were $5.85. The middle 50 percent earned between $5.58 and $6.32; the top 10 percent earned at least $7.83. Adding tips the median wage is about $35,000. <BR> <BR>According to the American Federation of Teachers, beginning teachers with a bachelor’s degree earned an average of $25,700 in the 1997-98 school year. <BR> <BR>Median annual earnings of social workers were $30,590 in 1998. <BR> <BR>I find it amazing that so many people here feel that they MUST tip at least 20% to allow wait staff to make a more liveable wage, yet as a society we pay so little to our teachers and social service workers who are required to have a college degree in order to work in their fields. How many of you have voted against a tax increase for schools or have bothered to write to your Representatives to tell them you think public service workers deserve more... <BR>

Best post of them all, Chris. Thank you!

This has been a very interesting and thoughtprovoking discussion -- thanks to all who have contributed! As I reread this morning [here in Chicago] and reflect on recent "dining out experiences" one issue comes to the fore. For me the central issue is HOW the waiter earns his/her $$$ and what that means for OUR experience. <BR> <BR>When you have servers dependant on tips to fulfill their income you get two things going. One: a temptation to get you to order pricier items. [I recently had a server at an upscale restaurant in Chicago put me in the position where I couldn't say no gracefully to bottled water because we were with guests -- it was clear who the hosts were and they asked the guests if they wanted water -- then it started flowing before I could catch what was happening. It added considerably to the bill by the time it was through.] <BR> <BR>The second is the false friendliness thing. I'd MUCH rather have a professional waiter who is polite, attentive and doesn't fawn, or disappear if it has been determined we might not be a "good tip". Which is to say that I wish we had the European system. But then the system we have is the result of corporate greed and the disregard for the welfare of those you employ.

It is absurd to compare the salary of a teacher with the salary of a waiter/waitress. The quality of life for a teacher - in general - is much, much higher, if we are talking strictly about wages and benefits. Teachers have months and months of paid vacation, tenure, plenty of sick days, pension plans, and health benefits. Waitresses have none of the above in most cases. I have known plenty of teachers who have supplemented their (admittedly, meager) salaries with second summer jobs, or by spending the summer writing a book.

TIPS are not "To Insure Proper Service" as someone here said. No one is that "entitled" Tips are not required and are a bonus for good service. They are discetionsary and no one should have to tip a certain level to receive service. I can say this after 3 years of waiting tables in college, I worked hard to give people good service so they would tip me. Not the other way around where they have to tip me to get service!

Quick question. Who sets the tipping rates on cruise lines? I was expected (according to printed guidelines) to tip people I never even saw on my cruise. I.E. headwaiter. What is up with that? They actually give you flat fees per day (I know suggested). Still shouldn't tipping be commensurate with service provided. I have heard some wonderful stories about staff bending over backwards and others where they didn't exist. What are your thoughts?

Lizzie, you may know some teachers, but you surely have no idea what teaching is like, certainly not in elementary and secondary schools (and what on earth is def.hub.edu -- no educational site I ever heard of). <BR> <BR>No restaurant servers have to go into debt so they can study for 4-6 yrs. and get a degree and a license just to get a job. Waitstaff often work incredibly hard, but during the year I work from 7:30am until long into the night doing class prep and grading. <BR>During summer, I do indeed have to supplement my income; and in the years when I've waited tables, it's been a welcome break. But in order to maintain accreditation, I have to take continuing ed courses in the summer on "my own time." Those of us not teaching in college have none of the security that university tenure does. Yes, I have benefits, which -- aside from the fact that I enjoy my kids -- is why I stay in teaching. But I don't even have time to be writing this, let alone a novel. <BR> <BR>Waitstaff have to put up with a lot of guff, but most restaurants don't need metal detectors at their doors. They don't have to worry about attacks on one side from parents and on the other from school board, endure endless meetings, proctor exams, chaperone outings and proms, and face the constant threat of a budget freeze or cutbacks because people think we already earn enough. And servers don't have to bring their own supply of dishes, table silver and napkins because the restaurant won't supply them. I'd hate to tell you how much out-of-pocket I am for classroom materials. <BR> <BR>I know from tough experience that waiting tables is exhausting and makes very few people (other than the Hooters gang, apparently) wealthy. But don't for a minute think that teachers have it one bit easier or make one dime more per hour. There are some weeks when it isn't even close.

Mike, <BR>I have a hard time believing that your sob story is typical. If that were the case, then only stupid people would go into teaching.

First of all, my response was solely regarding salary, which I believe I stated quite clearly. I do not wish to debate quality of life issues, nor do I wish to discuss the relative merit of either job. <BR> <BR>Second, my mother was a public school teacher her entire career, and she did have tenure. As is, I believe, typical for public school districts. Perhaps you are just unlucky in your choice of where to live/teach. <BR> <BR>Third, hub.edu is a Harvard address, not that it matters. My old address, in fact, sans def - which I added in case someone with the same first initial and last name has come along since I graduated. <BR> <BR>And if summers spent waiting tables were a welcome break from teaching, I certainly hope I never have children in your classroom!

after reading all the replies I can honestly say THANK GOD I LIVE IN SCOTLAND!!Service charge is normally included. I don't think I could up with all that stress when I'm supposed to be out enjoying myself! <BR>Now I understand the obsession some people seem to have about tipping when on holiday. <BR>Why not start campaigning for a change in law to stop all this and to give the poor waiting staff a decent living without having to practically 'beg'.

I always "went with the flow" and tipped 15% in restaurants in the USA. When in Rome......etc. However, after reading here that a waiter in a "sportsbar" earns US$ 1,000+ per week !!! for working only 5 evenings, I will greatly reduce tips next time. US$ 1,000 is almost an average monthly net salary here.

Funny how someone (a teacher) can belittle a job (waiting tables) when that person has no idea what's involved. Unless I missed something, I didn't see where any server was ridiculing any teacher.Unfortunately not all were privileged to attend college. I'm sure servers also have mortgages and kids in schools just as teachers do and are doing the best they can with what they have. Just because one's a teacher doesn't mean one's a good teacher. I recall "oh well, if I have a degree and don't know what to do when I get out of college, I can always teach". <BR>Sad to say, I have met a burned out teacher or two along the way.

I am very sympathetic with wait staff. But I do not believe I should tip a set percentage regardless, or even a minimum percentage. If the service is good, then 15 percent of the total (including the tax). If it's better, then more. If it's poor service, then 10-12%. I do not agree that customers should make up for the poor money that restaurant owners pay. Perhaps wait staff should organize and demand more pay. I have no sympathy whatsoever with the management or owners. Studies show they make no money off their food ... that profit's all about bar service and wine, which take little skill on the part of the wait staff. So, shall I pay a large percent tip for low skill activity? I think the wait staff are stuck.

I know many servers who have college educations. They simply choose to be servers and say they make more money waiting tables thatn they would at another job related to their education. Therefore, I can't stand to hear some servers omplain about the meager earnings they receive and the benefits they lack. There is always the option of putting that eduation to good use at a profession with tenure, salary, benefits, etc. its just that some people in the US are tipping over 20% and the way prices are right now thats alot. These servers are making more than many others, we should not feel compelled to tip at least a certain amount.

John Doe and Lizzie: <BR> <BR>Lizzie's first post said, verbatim: "The quality of life for a teacher - in general - is much, much higher, if we are talking strictly about wages and benefits. Teachers have months and months of paid vacation, tenure, plenty of sick days, pension plans, and health benefits. Waitresses have none of the above in most cases. I have known plenty of teachers who have supplemented their (admittedly, meager) salaries with second summer jobs, or by spending the summer writing a book." <BR> <BR>First, I do think the point of the post was to say teachers have it easy. If having "months and months" off in the summer to "write a book" isn't a quality of life issue, I don't know what is. <BR> <BR>And I didn't say high school teachers don't get tenure, just that it means a lot less in a public school system than it does in a university. You are not "fire-proof," believe me. <BR> <BR>Finally, John, did you miss the fact that I have waited tables, that it's a very hard way to make a living, but that it's a different kind of pressure with -- no question -- less financial certainty but also some insulation from community politics? <BR> <BR>I'd hope my response to Lizzie was to emphasize that it's apples and oranges, that there are enough "miseries" and advantages to go around. Anyone who thinks a teacher has it soft OR a server has it soft has never been either one.