He wrote a book review of his own book?

Well PeterSale whether you like it or not the Aborigines do have 'their' land. Can you imagine the circus that was Ayers Rock before they took over ownership. People camping, littering the area, humanity bombarding the place.

I think that Aborigines are entitled to live their traditional life if they choose to and as such are also entitled to land to do so. They don't have much and what they have I can't imagine too many white folk wanting it anyway - considering it's remoteness.

I wouldn't put too much credence in your link - the spelling of Ayres (sic) had me suss from the start.

That’s not a book review. It is a précis of the content of the book.

peterSale, occasionally the Ularu climb is closed. It is closed by National Parks, who have control of the area, not the Aboriginal owners. It is closed for safety reasons. Sometimes the reasons will not make sense – rain is forecast, making the climb hazardous, and then the rain does not fall. High winds are forecast, and then they don’t arrive. The climb was closed for a day in April this year, out of respect for a tourist who died on the climb the day before.

The climb is about 350 metres of easy going. Don’t pretend that it is hard or some sort of achievement. It is not Mount Everest – you can climb Ularu in sandals, sans ice axe and crampons.

Look, climb the rock if that is what turns you on. You can fire off flashbulbs during a church service – nobody will prevent you. Wear a scruffy tee shirt and hiking boots in a Buddhist temple – the monks are probably too polite to prevent you doing this.


Or observe the cultural sensitivities of the people that you interact with – it will make for a richer cultural and travel experience.

"My concern is that the Aborigines do not have a good reputation in this country and closing of an icon will not help their cause."

As opposed to your "good" reputation PeterSale as exemplified by your sensitive and empathetic posts,I suppose?


Definition of "icon" (Oxford Dict) = "pertaining to the sacred". Like people to walk over a few churches with no thought would you Peter?

This is a bit funny.

Signs request that you do not climb, so if you climb, you are doing it on your own account.

But then peterSale complains that “But when it is closed no one goes and gets those who are up there to come down”.

The implication is that someone should risk their lives to tell other people that they are risking their lives.

Maybe they should not be there in the first place – and if you choose to walk up the monolith, then you can walk yourself down. Do try not to fall.

This will be my last post on this topic as I know (and knew) I will not change your minds. I just hope that I have shown you that those of us who choose to climb are as passionate as those who choose not to. I have no problem with your choice or your conscience. I did think before I climbed and made a choice that best suited my conscience. In other countries I do the same thing and make a choice usually in favour of the local culture and sometimes not. We generally stick to national parks and avoid people (that's probably obvious by now).

I could go on, as I spent nearly three hours talking to people about the climb. This included two policemen at the base of the climb who said the closing of the climb was pretty much random and a bit of a joke. They suggested getting there as soon as the Park opens to get the best chance to climb.

I will leave you with four things to ponder.

If you are happy for indigenous people to close sacred sites would you be equally happy with all other religions closing their churches and temples to all but those who belong to their religion.

YOUR God created Ayers Rock. Whether that God is Allah, Jehovah, Mother Nature, Geology or any of the thousands of Deities this planet has. You need to decide how best to pay homage to your God. Follow your conscience not someone else’s.

If you want to make a truly rational/objective choice look at my photographs of Ayers Rock Summit at Flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/petersale1/

If you like what you see and would visit that place if it was in any other National Park in the world, then visit it. Simple. (I wish)

Finally, if climbing a rock is so divisive, what hope do we as a nation have of solving the far more complex issues facing minorities in this country?


CHANGING THE TOPIC COMPLETELY

I joined this forum as I was linked to it from this website:- http://www.outback-australia-travel-...ock-uluru.html


What does this website you all belong to offer? What should I be looking at? I am new to forums having only joined after visiting Ayers Rock. My wife and I travel internationally and nationally every year. We are not into tour groups or mass tourism and generally avoid people as much as possible.

Thanks for all your opinions. It has been fun. Remember, opinions are like clocks. Everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs is right.

"If you are happy for indigenous people to close sacred sites would you be equally happy with all other religions closing their churches and temples to all but those who belong to their religion."

Of course I would be equally happy if religions decide to close THEIR churches. When was the last time you went into a Mormon temple for example? Not allowed in there, and that is fine, it's their religion and their choice. You can be insensitive if you want but don't try to paint yourself as somehow more than a selfish person who wants what he wants when he wants it.

Dear Monica,

There is always someone who answers rhetorical questions. But seeing that you went to the trouble to answer and make grand assumptions about me because a I posed a question. I thought I would make some assumptions about you.

You are are happy for cultures to follow their beliefs. So far so good. We agree with each other.

So therefore am I right to assume that you are happy with cultures that do any of the following?
Polygamy, Bullfighting; Circumcision (male and female), Footbinding, Kayan Brass Coils; Whale Hunting; Fox Hunting; Hunting in general; Disenfrancise women or other minorities; Corporal Punishment; Capital Punishment; Conscription; Arranged Marriages; Ban Contraception; Ban abortions; Allow abortions; Female Infanticide; Have Dress Codes for women, Deny Education to women and/or other minorities; Don't allow homosexuals?

Or are you a hypocrite like everyone else on the planet?

I know this is all off topic and I said it would be my last post, but I couldn't let this one slide.

Going back to the original question?

Is it as sacred and profoundly meaningful to you to climb Uluru as it is to aboriginal peoples to have it undisturbed?

To put it another way, why do you feel you MUST CLIMB the rock?

<<Finally, if climbing a rock is so divisive, what hope do we as a nation have of solving the far more complex issues facing minorities in this country?>>

None! None that is if the minorities are having to deal with people such as yourself. In order for reconciliation to be achieved both sides have to have a bit of give and take and respect for beliefs. I think the aborigines are happy to oblige but I think there are many, many white folk who refuse to yield on land rights etc and Uluru is a sore point for them. It IS a sacred site, the traditional owners have not BANNED the climb, they have not CLOSED the climb they politely ask that you DON'T climb. Where's your respect for this culture, world traveller? You've assured us here that you weren't going to discuss this further and I see you've posted this thread on THREE new threads in the lounge - unable to let it go.

<<Mass tourism is often offensive and people can be thoughtless and disrespectful in all places and situations.>>

Your words from your Environmental Management thread. It really is the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

I have started the new threads as they are interesting to me
(and others given the number of response) but not related directly to Ayers Rock. I like hypotheticals. But this thread gives the background to my questions. Respond to me there not here.

Please don't make assumptions about me or my beliefs just because I pose the hard questions. Just because I pose them doesn't mean I have a certain viewpoint. Sometimes I have no viewpoint at all. But I am interested in others.

In answer to Cyanna. Most definitely! In as far as one can compare emotions, beliefs, pain etc. Who has more grief when a child dies? The Mother? The Father? The Sibling?

If it wasn't important I wouldn't have done it. I chose to respect the wishes of the Hawaiians and not to climb the summit of Mauna Kea in Hawaii as "summiting" is not my thing. Geomorphology and my relationship with my God is. I had seen enough of the volcano to satisfy my spirit/soul. Summiting would not have added to the experience. Likewise, although wishing to pay respect to the sailors of the Arizona in Pearl Harbour. I chose not take the free tour so that our tickets could go to someone to whom that site is truly significant. (I hope they did - but I will never know) I do usually visit all war memorials and read all the names. But Pearl Harbour although significant to our history is not Gallipoli or Tobruk and preference should be given to those who really care deep down.

Climbing to the top of Ayers Rock was one of the most amazing and profound experiences of my life. It ranks with being on glaciers and active volcanoes.

It is the feeling of immense age and geologic power. God's power. (I am not religious zealot. I attend no formal Church. Only nature.)

Ayers Rock "talks" to you. Talks to your soul. The silence. The breeze. The age. The colours (Ayers Rock is actually grey, only the thinnest outside layer is red).The variety of sounds the different rock layers make when you walk on them. The pattens inthe rock. The layers of age we cannot comprehend. The plants and the waterholes. The shrimp that occur only on Ayers Rock. The birds.

It was a physical and emotion pain to leave the rock. I had spent five hours on it and would, in a blink of an eye, return. It is that special.

So yes, such things are vitally important to me.
I fully understand that others will think I am mad.
I also fully understand that to many if not most toursists it is just a bit of red rock to tick off on their list of places they have been. I pity them.

I understand the anguish of the Aborigines because it is mine too. But from a different viewpoint.

For the record I generally avoid places of mass tourism so as to not add to the problem. Also there are few places of mass tourism that are based around geology which is why I travel. I long to see the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. But fear what tourism has done.

Why do you travel? Follow my thread at:-
http://www.fodors.com/community/fodo...wn-country.cfm

I think that if peterSale does not stop this, he'll go blind.

OMG Peter_S_Aus yes, and his arm must be getting very sore by now. So he only respects something when it's not 'his thing'. What a crock of sheets!

Puhlease!!! Somebody his the triangle!!! Puhlease!!

"So he only respects something when it's not 'his thing'."

Exactly, stormbird! - and there's the REAL hypocrisy.

The aboriginal people who supposedly have a "bad reputation" in this country according to peterSale, but who have the LEGAL rights to control access, only ASK that people not climb the rock - thereby eroding and disrespecting it.

(Interesting that peter, who supposedly is fascinated by natural land forms, doesn't mind participating in a climb that, in effect, helps destroy the integrity of a natural landform)

Maybe they need to actually ban climbing before people like peter really "respect" anything.

Some good did come from one climber's unfortunate slip to his death.

Azaria Chamberlain's matinee jacket was found when the rescue team was searching for his body, leading ultimiately to Lindy's release and the overturning of her conviction for murder.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...inaccount.html

Too true Bokhara. When all that started we had been living overseas, a remote area of PNG without television, radio or daily newspaper so we had actually heard nothing of the whole business.

We returned to Australia in 1982 just when Lindy was going to trial. So this was the first I had heard of the dingo and the baby. I really couldn't understand all the hysteria over the case as it seemed really quite plausible to me that yes, a dingo could take a baby. At the time I seemed to be the only one in Australia that thought Lindy was actually quite innocent.

Now in light of events up at Fraser Island and the fact that we have so many domestic dog attacks that can kill an adult - well how hard was it to establish the truth? Pride cometh before a fall (as far as the forensic/police involved).

This was a very grave injustice against the Chamberlain family particularly, Lindy but I'm pleased they seemed to have been able to pick up the pieces and move on.

If there is one pet hate that I have it is injustice - there is nothing that can make up for someone who has been unjustly accused.

No one with 1/2 a brain, knows anything at all about wild dogs, or lived in the country & seen dingos would doubt one could carry a baby off for a nanosecond, stormbird.

And the worst thing is, those NT dolts who were out to get her could not possibly have lived in that area and not known it was more than likely exactly as she said. It was a deliberate set-up from the minute the first inquest was over & the Chamberlains cleared - through the fabricated forensics & lunatic theories about names & dress colours & the witch hunt because she behaved with dignity, didn't wail like a banshee in public & wouldn't back down.

I was reminded of it today because I saw an article about Lindy being back for the 30th anniversary.

FANTASTIC!
If you don't like peoples opinions - Call them names.
If you really don't like them - Banish them.
What if you hate their opinions?

If you can't handle the opinions of others why are you on a forum?

Cyanna asked what I felt was a serious question and I answered it as such. I know people will not understand exactly how I feel but that is no excuse for name calling, that only belittles you.

I note that you chose to ignore my Pearl Harbour example as that does not suit your opinion of me. And you obviously missed the Mauna Kea point.

I look forward to an intelligent response from Cyanna and hope she has a broader mind and a more caring attitude to others than is apparent by the the last few posts about me.

How does the things that excite you, make you feel? Great art? Cathedrals? Whatever. Are your feelings more worthwhile, than others? Should you be caled names because of your feelings? More rhetorical questions.

<<I chose to respect the wishes of the Hawaiians and not to climb the summit of Mauna Kea in Hawaii as "summiting" is not my thing>>

Just clarify then PeterSale - if 'summiting' WAS your thing would you then have climbed the summit of Mauna Kea? The way I read it you are implying that if summiting was your thing well then you would have climbed the summit.

If then, that is the case then you in no way respected the wishes of the Hawaiians but quite frankly just chose not to climb - respect for wishes had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Your arguments seem somewhat flawed and

<<But Pearl Harbour although significant to our history is not Gallipoli or Tobruk and preference should be given to those who really care deep down>>

Fickle?

Hello. Me again! Another long one, but I’m sure the other readers of this thread will find it most fascinating. Let’s look at some REAL hypocrisy .

How contrary are you all? Let’s find out by following a few of your threads and reading your profiles.

As you read about yourselves, remember I WILL defend to the death your right to freedom of speech. But will you defend my right?

Stormbird is all for respecting cultures especially the Aborigines. Yet she ignores the culture of Fodor's by swearing even if cleverly disguised. How long have you been a member? 4 years?
Surely you read the terms?
What threads has Stormbird started?
One attacking Julia Gillard; another joking about people with dementia and yet another endorsing a video that promotes racial and cultural stereotypes. (yes the Lamb ads)

BUT the BEST BIT? THE ABSOLUTE BEST BIT? To quote her directly.
“The main thing we wanted to do here was go 4WDriving over the famous 'Big Red' sand dune. We weren't disappointed - the dune goes on for miles and miles and rises to about 150 metres I guess. Of course, for us the challenge was going to be between the 2 Nissan Patrol wagons and the 2 Toyota Land Cruisers.”
This is from her Trip report “Birdsville...are we there yet?”

All that way to drive over a sand dune and have a 4WD competition? What about the traditional owners? Not to mention the environment! How many shock absorbers did you replace? And brakes? Didn’t you get Mother Nature’s hint that you were not welcome? What is the carbon footprint of four 4WDs x6500km?

If I can’t WALK on Ayers Rock, can I DRIVE a 4WD over it instead?

MONICA bought a new sofa/chair combo because the old one was the WRONG COLOUR. YOU get what you want when you want it. How selfish of you! THEN she starts a vitriolic thread attacking St Vincent’s de Paul, because – God Bless Them – they will not lower their standards and accept her second hand sofa. Very caring. Very sensitive. What are you painting yourself as?

PETER_S_AUS only wants to go to Venice. Is this further evidence of a narrow mind or does he suffer from the sins of Onan? Or is he just obsessive? What about your greenhouse contributions to travel there? Won’t that create sea level rises and help flood Venice? OH! But you WANT to visit? That’s your thing. I could hunt through your threads but the others had well and truly proved my point. Plus, we have the same name and that added to my disguise.

OH MY! How the mighty have fallen. And to think others bleatingly follow you.
What will I find in your threads? Libretto and Bokhara2 et al?

Despite all this you people have the temerity to call ME a hypocrite. I NEVER said I wasn’t.

But I do follow MY conscience. Just like YOU. How scary.

Read about yourselves in Matthew 7: 1-5. And “Beaumont Rag” by Redgum. The live version on “Caught in the Act” is best.

Finally, if you want to know who I am.
Matthew 16: 18 (Just the first bit will do.)
And my last name? Just a sign on the house across the road. There is, I believe, a town in Victoria as well. Peter S Aus can confirm that.

I might change my alias again and… I might not.