Why climb it, when the top is only place in the area where you can't see it?

The people who live there don't want you to climb it. They feel like you're walking on THEM when you climb it. So don't climb it.

Walk around it.

fnarf999, you just don't get it. The rule is this: "I've spent a lot of money to get here - if I feel like doing it, I will, irrespective of the locals' attitude." Like I said - "if it feels good, do it".

BTW, as nothing has been heard of him lately it looks like the OP (KE1TH) is a troll. But it's been an intesresting discussion anyway.

Neil; fnarf: you both get it: The people who live there don't want us jetting in and out for a quick sunset photo either. You are selective in your political correctness.

Not necessarily....I meant to say you are selective in your politically correct indignation with those who do the climb as opposed to the "been there done that" set.

Anyone with a smidgin of knowledge about Aboriginal people would know that it is not in their nature, nor their culture, to come out with a direct "no". Hence the seemingly evasive answers quoted above from local Aborigines. They are trying to politely ask tourists not to clamber over a sacred site. How simple is that.

Neil_Oz, you offend me. If you cannot answer a question nicely, or at least without calling names, then I'd prefer you not answer my question at all.

I asked a simple question. All the "travel brochure programs" that focus on Australia that I've watched on the Travel Channel etc all say that the Aboriginal people prefer you not climb the rock, then proceed to show you footage of climbing the rock.... so you get a mixed message.

Just like I'm getting here....

So, not only did I get mixed messages, I get insulted. I asked the question on Friday..... I didn't even turn on my computer over the weekend..... it's Monday morning now and I look up this thread to find out what valuable information I might have been told and find out that you think I'm a troll....

I guess that adage that Aussies are a nice bunch doesn't apply to you.

fnarf999, actually from the top of the rock it is the best place to see how large and flat Uluru really is.

And I didn't walk on anybody to get there; I only walked on the rock.

KE1TH, I hope that I answered your question. Wrong as he is on this issue, Neil_Oz, is probably a nice guy too. He does spend a lot of time helping people plan their trips, providing some very good advice. Of course he should have realized not everyone is on their computer every day all day long; but I think you took too much offence at the word "troll". My understanding is it is a computer term for someone who just hops in on a discussion and leaves, and not an evil creature.

So enjoy your trip to Oz. It is true that "Aussies are a nice bunch ". And, IMHO, climbing Uluru will be fantastic experience that you will remember forever!

You won't be the only one climbing the rock.

From the Australian Government Department of the Environment and Heritage Web site (http://www.deh.gov.au/parks/uluru/no-climb.html):

Please Don't Climb Uluru
Nganana Tatintja Wiya - 'We Never Climb'

The Uluru climb is the traditional route taken by ancestral Mala men upon their arrival to Uluru. Anangu do not climb Uluru because of its great spiritual significance.

Anangu have not closed the climb. They prefer that you - out of education and understanding - choose to respect their law and culture by not climbing. Remember that you are a guest on Anangu land.

Also, Anangu traditionally have a duty to safeguard visitors to their land. They feel great sadness when a person dies or is hurt.

Please read our safety page to find out what precautions you need to take when visiting Uluru - Kata Tjuta National Park.

If you visit the Cultural Centre you will learn more about the significance of Uluru in Anangu law and culture. Please do this before you decide whether to climb. There are many other activities and walks available in the park.

Please also note that the climb will be closed when weather conditions are predicted to exceed certain safety thresholds (temperature, rain, cloud, wind etc.).

Other Uluru Climbing Links:

http://www.crystalinks.com/ayersrock.html
"Climbing Uluru - The local indigenous community request that visitors respect the sacred status of Uluru by not climbing the rock, with signs posted to this effect. In 1983 the former Prime Minister of Australia, Bob Hawke, promised to respect the request from the community that climbing Uluru be prohibited, but broke his promise when title was handed to the traditional owners in 1985 because access for tourists to climb Uluru was made a condition before they could receive the title. The climb crosses an important dreaming track, which has been a cause of sadness and distress among traditional owners. Neverthless, they are unable to prohibit climbing, and climbing Uluru is a popular attraction for a large fraction of the many tourists who visit it each year."

http://www.sacredland.org/world_sites_pages/Uluru.html
"A major challenge is that of discouraging visitors from climbing Uluru. To Anangu, climbing Uluru is a violation of tjukurpa. (The route of the Uluru climb is the traditional trail taken by ancestral Mala men upon their arrival to Uluru.) Climbing the rock is also dangerous: heat and winds pose a significant threat, and at least 37 people have died while making the climb since tourism has operated in the park. For these reasons, Anangu request that visitors do not climb the rock, there is no official records kept but it is estimated that nearly half of all visitors choose to climb, and visitor surveys indicate that the challenge of getting to the top pulls people like a magnet. Although Anangu tolerate climbing on Uluru, it is clear that commercial pressures have kept the rock open. In 2001, after the death of an elder, Anangu closed the path for a 10-day mourning period, which elicited protests from some government officials and members of the region’s tourist industry. Many feared that the temporary closure might lead to a permanent ban, but to date, no such plan is in place.”


http://www.lonelyplanet.com/columns/...ller_index.htm
"There is still considerable confusion among non-Aboriginals about this issue. Before I left Melbourne, I asked two dozen people if I should climb or not, and about half of them said that as long as I didn't get injured on the path, it would be OK to make the climb.
Clearly, this is not what the words in the pamphlet imply. The pain just beneath the surface of those words is palpable. Basically, it seems to me, the Aboriginals want to say, 'This is a sacred site and you can't climb it,' but instead they have reached a compromise with the government that maintains a chain-path ascending the rock and permits visitors to make the climb along that chain. (While the Aboriginals own the land, they lease it to the government for tourism use.) You can imagine the economics and politics of persuasion that underlie this compromise.
But when I made my way out to the rock on Tuesday, the climbing entrance area was cordoned off and the chain-path was closed - clearly, strictly, no exceptions allowed. Signs stated that due to the death of the elder, climbing was not being permitted at this time. A park ranger explained that the elder had been a member of the Mala tribe that was traditionally responsible for the ancient path the climbing route follows, and that the path was closed as part of the practices associated with the period of mourning.
Most of the visitors around me seemed to accept this, but a few were outraged. 'What the bloody hell is this all about?' one Aussie said to me. 'I'm just gonna go tomorrow and bolt up the hill, mate - what can they do?'
And I overheard a Brit turn to his group and mutter, 'We've come all the way around the world for this?'
Over the next few days news reports said that tourists had begun to complain about the closure of the climb and to agitate for it to be opened again.
Part of me could understand the disappointment and even the outrage of people who had traveled for days to make what seemed to them a kind of pilgrimage. For some, this may have been a once-in-a-lifetime trip. They had saved and planned and looked forward to it for months, maybe even years. And if climbing Uluru was supposed to be the climax of that trip, well, being forbidden to make the climb would be profoundly upsetting.
Part of me was disappointed as well. Part of me had been looking forward to the challenge of the climb, and to the view of the Outback spreading away sere and red to the horizon, and especially to the sense of oneness that I thought I would feel with the rock as I pulled myself up its flank.
But the more I thought about it, the more I felt uniquely privileged to be denied the possibility of making the climb. This very denial affirmed that the ancient rites and beliefs still abide, that they are as valid and vital today as they have been for centuries. After all, it is these rites and beliefs that comprise the spiritual foundation of Uluru. In honoring them, we honor and sustain the sanctity of the site.
And in doing that, I realized, we honor and sustain some fundamental human impulse that extends far beyond that one red rock monolith in the heart of Australia. By not climbing Uluru, by not being allowed to climb Uluru, I was paying homage to an ancient spirit - call it awe, call it worship, call it faith in something that, unknowable, gives shape and sense to life - that infuses and connects all the peoples of the world.
The death of that cherished elder - and the rites and restraints attending his death - taught me something irreplaceable about life.
As it turned out, I'll never forget the view from the base of Uluru."

Sorry, KE1TH. You're right, I'm actually a proper bastard, and to make matters worse, sometimes my troll radar develops a fault. But thanks, tampatramp, for giving me the benefit of the doubt - that's true Southern politeness.

I do note that several of the nice people on this forum, as well as the resident bastard, are also finding it hard to follow the argument that it's OK to climb the rock.

I'm a little tired of people using the threadbare term "political correctness" to describe any opinion that the writer disapproves of, usually for want of an effective counter-argument. I think that's what's known as the ad hominem approach to debate.

I'm not sure that this is a question of one side being right and the other wrong, just one of good manners. Surely the issue is straightforward enough if we apply the "do as you would be done by" rule.

I notice that Ralph has brought up the term " political correctness". Now let me inform the people reading this post that it was the USA who brought in the concept of political correctness and in fact still tend to abide by those ideas. Australians are not like Americans, I doubt that any of us follow the ideas of political correctness one little bit. Why should we, we have minds of our own and can make our own decisions about issues without the help of politicians. Having said that I cannot understand why anyone goes to Ayers Rock myself when there is a far better one in Western Australia, far bigger and in much more magnificent surroundings. I feel that the cost of going to Ayers Rock is too much to see too little when there are many more magnificent areas which are not frequented by tourists.
The issue of whether to climb the rock or not is, and should be, your own. You know that it does not make the local Aboriginal owners happy but if you can live with the fact that you are headstrong and insensitive then go ahead. Try climbing the Opera House too while you are in Sydney as the view is wonderful from there too but don't be surprised if the white Australians are more offended and proactive to that sort of disrespect than the elders of Uluru.

If it was safe and legal to climb the Opera House, I'd do that too, just as I did Uluru, the Harbour Bridge, Mt Beerwah, Mt Barney, Pigeon House and dozens of others. I'm sure they're all sacred to somebody, or at least they were.

"...the Canadian Oxford Dictionary ... defines political correctness as 'the avoidance of forms of expression or action that exclude, marginalize, or insult certain racial or cultural groups'...

"Liberal and progressive commentators ... argue that the term ... was hijacked by (US) conservatives around 1980 and redefined as a way to reframe the political scene ... and that many who use the term are attempting to distract attention from substantive debates over discrimination and unequal treatment based on race, class, and gender.."
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

Neil: I meant "political correctness" in the pure sense as defined by the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. It is a good thing and it has made some of the world a better place. I don't fault you for being that way. Some of us, myself included, just aren't that good at it sometimes.

No worries, Ralph. I've been called worse (like "chardonnay-sipping leftie", which as a red drinker I really resent).

Neil, I just want to clarify : are you a proper bastard or a literal bastard? Before I hand you the keys to my apartment, I should know just what kind of a bastard I'm entertaining, eh

AndrewDavid

A/D, I can be flexible - what sort of bastard would you prefer to entertain? (When I took up family history I discovered only one literal bastard, my grandfather, but judging by the marriage and birth records there were quite a few close calls.)

>>Before I hand you the keys to my apartment, I should know just what kind of a bastard I'm entertaining, eh<<

I'm glad to see you're becoming fluent in Canadian. :-)

Lee Ann