Lee Ann, not only fluent in Canadian but North Queenslandese.

LeeAnn. I'm better in printed word than spoken word. In speech I often have the inflection wrong.

Neil I thought all the records had been destroyed to protect the reputations of your children

cheers, A/D

Resurrecting an old but important topic. As if climbing the rock was bad enough, take a look at this: http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/201...61_ntnews.html

_______________________________________________
Vic's travels: http://my.flightmemory.com/vogilvie

Not rocket science here...Sorry, it just comes down to one word RESPECT
IT is something I would not consider if there was gold at the top. They are courteous to us as visitors, it is simple.

Clearly, she hasn't the wit or wisdom to "understand what the fuss is about", Vic. Pity she didn't slip off it!

Hi All,

WOW...hot topic huh?

As someone who books these tours for clients (yes, I'm probably going to burn in hell and the PC Police will no doubt lock me up for all of eternity...) I thought I'd throw in my $.02.

Part of my job is to educate my clients about Australia
(no mean feat, let me tell ya!).

American tourists (I'm only speaking on what I know, but I suspect tourists from other countries are in the same boat) are totally brainwashed because every single tour operator, brochure, etc., tells them that going to Ayers Rock and climbing it are one of the MUST Do things.

We all know this all the same when visiting all sorts of other places in the world - what kind of stupid tourist would you be to say that you'd been to Venice and never had a gondola ride or travelled to San Francisco without seeing the Golden Gate Bridge?

You really can't fault people for wanting to do it when it's in every single damn brochure they see! This is where education comes in. In the 15 years I've been sending clients to Australia not ONE has had the slightest clue that this could be offending anyone.

Once I explain it to people, they "get it". I suggest that they tour with Anangu Tours, my preferred touring company for Ayers Rock. This is an Aborginal owned company and they do not offer anything involving climbing Ayers Rock.
www.ananguwaai.com.au/anangu_tours

They have the courage of their convictions and stay fast to their beliefs and I respect and support them for that, because they know they could get more business by offering a climb but choose not to.

So then, I ask my clients, what is the reason they want to travel to Uluru? Isn't the true purpose to learn about the oldest culture on earth, to see the rock paintings and have a guide who comes FROM this culture? (as opposed to some guy hired to rattle off commentary on a 50 passsenger motorcoach? Or is it to simply climb a big rock because some travel brochure has told them it's a "must do"?

Most of them listen to me - some do not and yes, I've booked them into tours involving climbing (hence the burning in hell part). All I can do is try to explain it and if they still choose to do it, well then, I will assist them.

Regarding people dying from doing the climb, as several people have mentioned, it's true....although the Tourism department likes to keep that bit quiet. :)

About 7 years ago I sent a client there who was a doctor. When he reached the top, there was a man who was having a heart attack - he tried as best he could to help him, but it was too late. The helicopter dispatched hadn't even taken off before this poor German tourist was dead. Even worse, his wife was still climbing and they had to tell her when she reached the top.

Even weirder, both these unrelated people were scheduled to go to Cairns the next day, so my client found himself at the airport at the same time with the new widow who was trying to make arrangements to have her husband's body shipped home. To say that this experience colored my client's vacation would be an understatement. I mean, even though the guy was a doctor, he just didn't expect something like this happening on his vacation and the end of his time in Australia was not a happy one.

So Keith, you have all the information and you can make an informed decision now - I hope all the imput from the board, including that Bastard Neil, was helpful! :)

btw, so nice to see you again AndrewDavid! When are we going to finally meet the next time you're in the Bay Area? I can provide some sort of documentation of my parentage so you won't have to worry about someone like Neil! A simple lunch or dinner or drinks would suffice, no apartment keys necessary ! :)

Regards,

Melodie
Certified Aussie Specialist

Thanks for your 2c worth Melodie! I'm so pleased to hear you promote Anangu tours and that you try to dissuade people from climbing. Really, I think they should just ban it.

Maybe you could get your clients to view this comedy sequence from the Chaser boys, it makes the point really well, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB_WN7dBXns

Great post Melodie.I have followed this thread for some time and now that it got brought to the top again, find it quite coincidental that I had been researching Uluru since I got back from Australia recently.I had bought a CD back with me and really got to like a particular song on it, by John Williamson, written and recorded way back in 1989
It's about our atitude, and Indigenous belief in the sacredness of Uluru.I kind of like the lyrics.May help bring this discussion into focus for some.
http://holesinmysoles.blogspot.com/2...disrepect.html
And away there where the wind is blown
Never before felt so alone
More aware of skin and bone
I watch the parade of human folk
Strips of rubber,cans of Coke
Making dust and blowing smoke

Where the awe-inspiring power of time
Leaves some fearful,some sublime
White man feels his progress prime
Black man feels no urge to climb.

John Williamson , 1989 Warragul recording of Ancient Mountains.A CD I brought back from our Kimberley adventure.It's a song about the diferent atitudes Aboriginal and Europeans have to the mountains, and Uluru in particular

Thanks Susan - I'd seen that video before - those guys are absolutely hysterical! Love them! I think I'll try that the next time; I'll put the link in my "Favorite Places" and have it ready to send!

Thank you Tactile as well.

This morning I opening the morning paper (San Francisco Chronicle) and see:

"Aboriginal ownrs of Uluru (Ayers Rock) and the land around it have another reason to demand a ban on climbing the sandstone formation after a French woman stripped to her boots, bikini bottoms and cowboy hat to see the site 'in a way I'm going to remember.' The performance was caught on video by a friend. The rock is sacred territory to the Anangu people, who for years have asked tourists to admire it from a distance. Last year Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park officials recommended a climbing ban, but tour operator complained, and the rock remains open for the foreseeable future."

CLIMB THE ROCK.

The aborigines may own the land, but having leased it to US through our taxes the have no right to control our morals. If you rent a house would you like the landlord to control how you behave morally eg No single parent; No homosexuals etc.

I fully respect their moral code and are happy for them to follow it. I am not happy for them to force their code onto us.

Anyone who dismisses the climb as "only a small part" of the experience misses the importance of it to those of us that want to climb it. It is part of the Australian culture to climb such things for many reasons - tradition, family who have done it; life long desire and like Everest "because it is there".

I spoke to over fifty people who climbed the rock the same day I did and all had stories to tell of their dreams of climbing it and how agry it made them that the aborigines seem to close it on a whim. Many were very upset that their children and grandchildren will not be able to climb it. The friendly atmosphere on the climb is fantastic. People who would never normally speak to each other were chatting and offering help and encouragement. It was a wonderful community feel that will be lost.

I spent five hours on the rock and walked out to the far end. I spent about the same walking and driving around the base. The top of the rock is one of the most special and fascinating places in the world and I have been to 35 countries. The walk around the base is but a mere shadow of the walk at the top.

To stop the climb is insensitive and illogical but Culture and politics always are. Whose culture is more important? What compromise can/should be made?

If you respect all people. Why do you not respect those who want to climb?
ALL racism. All bigotry is UGLY.

Oh, the ignorance.

And the climb is closed for safety reasons - about 30 people have died on the rock, heart attack, heat exhaustion or falling off the thing.

The climb is not worth doing - it's not that hard. Just drag yourself up on the chain and keep walking.

So true Peter__S_Aus - I refrained from responding yesterday because it was heading towards a bit of a rant - but you've said all that needs to be said. Thanks.

And you joined just to post this, peterSale?

Doubtless, you're entitled to your opinion.

If people have no respect for the Aboriginals' sacred place, it would seem to follow that they would not object to others ignoring their wishes about anything they might hold sacred.

Perhaps nothing is sacred to these people - except fulfilling their own "dreams", wishes & desires.

I drove through Yulara a few years ago, in transit from Perth to Melbourne - I wrote a bit of a trip report about the journey, which was special in many ways. My take on climbing Ularu:

Tourists complaining that the climb up Ayers Rock has been closed. It's 36 degrees in the shade, there's no shade anyway, and it's blowing about 40 knots on top, for God's sake, and they look they have not climbed anything more challenging than a bar stool in decades. 200 pounds of the finest lard. Have they got a death wish, or what. I bet if they went to Jerusalem, they would not try free climbing on the Wailing Wall, so why can't they respect the wishes of the owners and stay off the rock. Aboriginals never, never climb. Except to haul a stretcher up the rock to retrieve people with heart failure or heat stroke.

Walking around the base of the rock, a place with a feeling of great age. Aboriginals have been here for 40,000 years, one of the worlds oldest civilisations, and have left no mark other than some cave paintings. Communities with strong oral traditions, and a story to explain the existence of almost every feature and mark on the rock. Feels like walking through Westminster Abbey, or Chartres Cathedral. Go quietly, you are walking over and through someone's history, disturbing their Dreamtime. Take care.

I was amazed at how spiritual my visit to Uluru seemed to be. I love that place.

The very shy Anangu people have never forced their moral code on anybody they only ask that you think about their wishes. They are only asking not telling. It's their sacred ground not ours and so their culture should be the one that needs to be respected here - it's nothing to do with us really and that's the way it should be IMHO.

Very well said Stormbird and excellent factual corrections.

The thing I don’t understand is the concept that once you pay money for something, then it is yours to do what you like with it. The concept that, because a lease fee is paid to the Anangu people, then they have no right to request any particular behaviour from visitors.

You can lease a church hall, and turn it into a casino. And the church will be offended.

peterSale noted that ”It is part of the Australian culture to climb such things for many reasons - tradition, family who have done it; life long desire and like Everest "because it is there". But it is not part of my culture, particularly when it would offend people.

In 1995, I was cycling around Aus, and there’s a sort of trip report for that:

Early start next morning, in the dark, to pedal to Ularu for sunrise. A traffic jam, buses, cars, Grey Nomads, camper vans, plus your solitary cyclist. Camp stools pulled out, the sun rises, Ooh, Aah. Rattle of shutters that sounded like castanets, where are the flamenco dancers, and then they mostly hurtled off. A couple of nomads lit the billy and we shared a cup of tea in the dawn chill, most peaceful.

I have to confess that I climbed Ularu, in a state of ignorance. I was unaware, then, that the traditional owners see Ularu as sacred, and that it is not respectful to climb. The climb is no big deal really, in terms of achievement. There’s a chain to haul yourself up the steepest part, and after that it’s easy. Not worth doing really. The T-shirts on sale saying “I climbed Ayers Rock” are about as significant as saying I rode a bus.

I went to the visitor centre, and learned heaps about Ularu. At that time, the visitor centre was still in a tin shed, and the new centre was under construction, near completion. By absolute chance, I ran into Greg Burgess, architect for the new centre, and he showed me around, explaining how the architecture reflects the stories, the song lines, of the Anangu, the traditional owners. He'd designed the centre by sitting on the ground for weeks with the owners, drawing patterns in the sand, talking endlessly, and the building is the result of that process. It is one of Australia's fine buildings, an inland version of the Sydney Opera House.

Ularu is to me the centre of gravity of this country. The bike trip was my first visit, and I’ve been back three times since. It's special to me, it feels good.

The visitors/cultural centre is an absolute gem isn't it, Peter_S. I've only been there once and was sorry that we didn't have more than the hour or so we did to delve further into its treasures.

At that time, the Guelph (Sp?) panorama building was still in Alice Springs (later destroyed by fire) and it was also a wonderful repository for artefacts, decorations, art and utensils from the area.

We found a lot of things on our place (Far north west NSW) - rubbing stones, boomerangs, nulla nullas, axe heads, & throwing sticks, some coolamons & stick humpees, but none of the fine head & foot decorations made of feathers that I saw up there.

Like you, Uluru has a resonance for me. So did our place. Blindfolded & driven there from any direction, I'd have known when we were on our soil.

Some people just dont feel or see it that way, I suppose. Bit like flying over the great rivers & plains of the Channel country & declaring, "There's nothing there".

When we visited Uluru the first time in 1997 we were very lucky that when we visited the Cultural Centre a member of the Anangu people - Rupert - took us on a guided tour. He struggled with English - which I thought was fantastic as it meant it wasn't his first language - and so a ranger tagged along as well to help out with the occasional translation assistance. Rupert was delightful and enlightening. I was absolutely enraptured by his stories.

When we were finally leaving the area my main thought was that we must plan to come again but next time with our friends as I was desperate to share the experience with them.

We returned with our friends in 2002 and had an absolutely wonderful trip - they too, enjoyed the area so much. Sadly, there was no guide at the cultural centre - I did enquire but was told that as much as they would love to have someone there they are just so shy it is difficult to get them to come out so to speak.

As white Australians we don't have too much in the way of Australian culture and I just feel that the Aboriginal culture desperately needs to be preserved, shared, appreciated and respected.

I was there in late June and was upset by the seemingly random closure of the climb.

I know it is closed for safety reasons as it is strenuous. But when it is closed no one goes and gets those who are up there to come down. It was windier on our way down than on the way up and still it was open. The concensus of those at the base waiting to climb was that reasons are arbitary.

I fully agree with some of the safety reasons and that it should be closed in extremes.

My concern is that the Aborigines do not have a good reputation in this country and closing of an icon will not help their cause.

Australia has a wonderful and diverse culture and no ONE culture should control what the others do. Women without head covering will offend certain Muslims. Should you cover your head at all times?

The debate of "us" and "them". "Their land" or "our land" will not aid in reconcilliation.

In direct answer to Keith. There is little pressure not to climb although the request is on signs and in brochures. It will be luck rather than desire as to whether you can climb the rock given the number of times they close it. When we went it had beenclosed for two weeks. Then three hours on our day. Open for two hours the next day etc.

Yes I did join to voice my opinion and the opinion of the fifty or so that I talked to on the rock. And anyone who says it is flat up there has not been there.

Try this website for some history. I have not researched the accuracy of the site.

http://outbackvoices.com/book-review...wns-ayres-rock