I love your response! I’m really not inclined to visit the monkeys and I imagine it’s too touristy anyway, so I’ll leave it be. With that in mind, I don’t know that the extra stop in Nagano makes sense.

I’m looking to consolidate more of the trip and will mull it over a bit more, but think I’m close.

So I discussed this with my husband, M, who would prefer to travel at a slower pace and accepts we won’t be seeing everything but will enjoy the experiences we do have. I’m consolidating what you all are suggesting and keeping it slow but still have a chance to explore where we can.

For now (itinerary # 16 on my list!)
Tokyo - 6
-Day trip to Kamakura
Matsumoto - 3
- possible day trips to Narai, Kamikochi
Okuhida - 2
- one full day exploring onsen towns, possible visit to Kamikochi
Takayakma - 4
- Hida folk village or Shirakawago
Kanazawa - 4
- possible day trip to Noto peninsula
Nara-2
Kyoto -5

Much as I’d like to see even more, our style is go slow and take our time. We aren’t planning to rent a car. And complicated trips or long trips between locations aren’t going to work for us. So this is my slow plan that gives at least a range of experiences.

Looks like it should do what you want.

Thanks! Though I’m afraid it also sounds like damning with faint praise!

I know we’ve restricted our trip a lot with our limitations and I wish we were younger and didn’t feel the need to slow it down so much, but that’s where we are these days if we want to travel.

At least you are traveling. I've been grounded since 2018, just very glad I got so much travel in when I could. Looks like I may be able to get out there again, perhaps next year, but I'm pretty sure I'll be traveling slower for shorter trips - no more multi-month RTWs, I fear. And really, that itinerary looks fine, just a bit longer than I would choose in Takayama and Tokyo

I’m glad to hear you’re almost ready to travel again! That’s great news. Honestly, long trips far away are harder and harder because of aging/health issues and exponentially higher rates for travel so our future plans, I suspect, will be different.

Thanks for your thoughts about Tokyo and Takayama. I’m sure we won’t have a hard time filling 6 nights in Tokyo and, if Takayama is as charming as people say, I think we’ll enjoy a longer stay there, too. I’m not sure where I would move that day if we stayed one less day in Takayama.

Going by what you've written about not wanting to move hotels all that often and imagining dragging luggage around, I'd just do Nara as a day trip from Kyoto. It's less than an hour by train. If Nara were in between Kanazawa and Kyoto, then it might make sense, but it's past Kyoto, on another line, so why not just stop in Kyoto, get settled into your hotel, spend a day or two there and then go to Nara on day 3 or so?

Thanks, progol. I am an object lesson in the value of not putting travel off until "later". I didn't care much for Tokyo, and didn't go back on my second trip, but lots of people feel differently. You could always add a day trip to Nikko if necessary.

Thanks, Jean,
It’s definitely a consideration. I included it as a separate stop since many have recommended it as a smaller/quieter place to stay before the intensity of Kyoto. But if I do that, where might I add the extra day without adding another stop?

My only other thought is to do as you suggest, and taking a day from Takanawa, add one more stop. But not sure where. Nagano after Tokyo and before Matsumoto? And again, my husband would prefer to keep the number of stops down.

>> where might I add the extra day
what extra day? As you have it you wake up in Nara, visit Nara, sleep in Nara. Other way is wake up in Kyoto, visit Nara, sleep in Kyoto. My answer to where you would add an extra day would be Hakone.

>> Nagano after Tokyo and before Matsumoto?
Was thinking about that order. One answer would be that it depends a bit on where you stay in Tokyo because of the rail options. Nagano first fits with the rest of your plan. If you go Matsumoto -> Nagano then to avoid backtracking your next stop would be Takayama via Toyama and you could continue on to Okuhida area the same day. Or daytrip to Okuhida from Takayama Or go up there from Takayama for the two nights which could be in the middle of the Takayama stay or at the end.

- possible day trips to Narai, Kamikochi
Kamikochi as day trip from M is back. I had suggested that but backtracked after realizing that it was longer than I thought. Am not sure I got it right, sorry. Can you find and post the travel times between the triangle of Matsumoto, Kamikocki, and Hirayu Onsen and between Takayama and those places? Kamikochi can be a nice stop on the way from Matsumoto to Okuhida if the timing is right and I think it is.

Narai-juku looks nice. This link mentions you can take a limited express and then change to a local train to get to Narai. That train connection might just mean crossing a platform, or it could be the same track or worst case take a bridge to another platform.
Narai Town - Kiso Valley Travel (japan-guide.com)

Like you, we travel slow. Our first trip to Japan was very similar to yours and I loved it. You have a nice mix of cities, small towns and countryside. The only question I have is 4 nights in Takayama. I guess if you do a day trip to some place that would work. We stayed 3 nights during a festival and found that to be fine. I may not have been as taken with Takayama as others seem to be. I liked it though.

Reversing Nara and Kyoto would save you an extra train when coming from Kanazawa.

Nagano would be along the way between Tokyo and Matsumoto as you say, but it would be just as easy with a single train from Tokyo to Matsumoto.

What about throwing the rest of your additional days to Tokyo or Kyoto, if you want less stops? There are plenty of day trips you can take from both. From Tokyo, you could go to Yokohama, Mount Takao, Chiba, etc. From Kyoto, you could get to Lake Biwa, Kobe, and Himeji, to name a few.

You could also journey west of Kyoto and end your trip with a couple of nights in Okayama, which is on the shinkansen line, or Naoshima, which would be very different from the other places you're visiting.

Naoshima would definitely be different. It seems complicated to get there or have I missed something?

I haven't done it myself, but from my research, it would be Kyoto to Okayama via shinkansen, train to port, and then ferry to Naoshima.

Yes, that is what I found when I looked for our last trip. Thanks!

I envy the length of your stay in Takayama, a beautiful city with a rushing river going through it. We enjoyed taking a Hida Cooking class there.
As far as Hiroshima, I didn’t think I would like it but did enjoy it. The huge emphasis on peace and omnipresent cranes as symbols of peace are my best memories.

Hi, all,
I really appreciate all your suggestions and am getting a bit overwhelmed! I don’t have the time to address all the questions, but wanted to mention some of our thoughts.. There are so many places that we’re not going to see, but we do accept that these are our limits.

Some of the places that sound great, like Nikko or Hakone, are not easy to travel from and on to the next destination in our itinerary without multiple changes and a lot of extra time. These also are (for us) not likely day trips for us. I looked at travel from Nikko to Matsumoto and there were 4 changes(!) over 4+ hours. Nope, not realistic. So I scrapped that.

We end our trip flying out of Itami, and I’d prefer to go to the airport from either Kyoto (60 minute airline shuttle) or Osaka (30 minute airline shuttle). Ending in Nara was actually a nice idea (thanks, tripplanner , though it does add extra time at the end which makes me reconsider that. So going to Okayama and Naoshima (which looks great, by the way) is probably more than we can do. We’d also prefer longer time in smaller towns so staying more time in Kyoto or Osaka is less appealing.

The one place I’m considering is Koyasan and only because there seems to be a seasonal bus that goes directly from Kyoto. If this still runs, but it’s not clear if it is or will be, it would make it doable to go there. As the trip back to Osaka looks pretty convoluted, I would actually consider returning to Kyoto for a last night or 2. This is something I’m still exploring but, if it’s as easy as it sounds, I think this would be great to do at the end of the trip. Probably just before peak color, too, but we’d probably see some nice color.

https://en.visitwakayama.jp/plan-you...t-highway-bus/

I was surprised that you thought Nikko too difficult for a day trip, but then I remembered that easier access to Nikko was one reason for staying in Asakusa, Fortunately, turned out that I liked Asakusa.

It’s not a difficult trip to Nikko from Tokyo, but it is a 2-hour train trip each way. For us, that’s more than we like to spend on a day trip. When I considered it as the next place to visit, I the found the trip contininuing on to Matsumoto to be difficult, with multiple changes and a time of over 4 hours.

But Asakusa is still a place that sounds interesting to stay. I just checked and we arrive in Haneda at 3:20pm, so even if it takes a while to go through the immigration/customs process, we’ll have more than enough time to get to a hotel at a reasonable hour.

Four hours is my daily travel limit based on lessons learned. I could go up to five hours if I felt it necessary. Otherwise, the plan has to change.

Navitime has an option to sort by Fewest Changes.

For fun, I took a look at Hakone Yumoto to Matsumoto and Navitime kept coming up with multiple transfers and 4 hr 3m travel time, but I knew there was a 1-transfer route (change from Odakyu to JR in Shinjuku). Sorting by fewest changes found that route and it was 4h 35m (and who wants to change railways in Shinjuku). But the shorter route was 3 min too long, anyway.

There is a JR Limited Express Nikko train from Tobu Nikko to JR Shinjuku. At least there was but I could not find it with Navitime. It runs/ran on weekends only and is all-reserved seats. Nikko was overrun in Nov 2019 with the line to see Tokugawa starting at the bottom of the steps of very long climb. This location, for a daytripper, would contribute to being templed out. Would have loved it 20 years ago.

Navitime for Matsumoto to Kamikochi came up with bus/walk routes but the walking part was 2 hours! IDK what I did but next time I tried that search it did not let me use Kamiikochi as a destination. I even tried it in a different browser but same result.

Jourdan is better than Navitime, I think. It found Spacia Nikko No.#4 (For Shinjuku) 1 h 56 m, limited express with no change of trains for tomorrow afternoon (from Tobu Nikko). It also has a sort by #transfers. But, best route to Matsumoto is via Nagano anyway 3h 57m with three transfers! Any way you go is going to be over 4 hours. Jourdan did find Kamikochi routes.

Jourdan only shows 5 results but you can advance by 30 minutes at a time.

I miss hyperdia.

mrwunrfl, you are wonderful! I really appreciate the time you take to play with the itinerary and the options.

I’m almost there and now it’s a question of where to allocate the days. And I’m pretty happy with it now. It needs a few tweaks but I think it’s very close.

Things I’m considering in the following itinerary, as we like a good balance of smaller places with larger cities.

1) Matsumoto 2 or 3 days? I like the idea of a day trip to Narai, possibly visit Kamikochi from here (or from either the onsen towns or Takayama.
2) Takayama - 4 nights? I know many people think it’s worth no more than 3 nights, but we love small cities and we can do several day trips from here. If we visit Kamikochi on the second day at Okuhida, we’ll arrive in Takayama late in the day.
3) Kanazawa - I initially had 3 nights here but it’s a big city and not at all sure I want to stay that long. I’m considering that 2 days be enough for the main garden, modern art museum and the market? While these are nice, the city doesn’t look as appealing as other places.
4) Koyasan - 1 night. With additional stop added in Kayotei ryokan, not sure I want an extra stop. But it’s doable with the direct bus from Kyoto. If we do go (and not sure we will now), I’ll probably break the stay up into 2 separate visits of 4 nights and 2 nights. 1 night would be enough as the bus leaves in the morning and returns in the later afternoon, about 2 hrs and 40 mins. Still, this stop will likely be eliminated as we now have a full itinerary.
5) Just discovered Kayotei ryokan by reading earlier planning threads. It looks lovely, very traditional, and fits nicely between Kanazawa and Kyoto.
6) Eliminating Nara as a stop. Itinerary #19 (you can see how many variations I’ve come up with!)

Tokyo-6
Matsumoto-3(2)
Okuhida/Kamikochi -2
Takayama- 4/3
Kanazawa- 2/3
Kayotei ryokan - 2
Kyoto-4
(Koyasan-1)
Kyoto-2

I really think I’m almost there.

Oh, dear. Never mind kayotei. Looks beautiful but my eyes deceived me and the rates are far behind my pocketbook.

progol, In Kanazawa we stayed at the Nikko and had a very good experience there.

Thanks, HappyTrvlr, that’s good to know.

0) you mentioned big cities, that first and longest stop is six nights in the largest megalopolis in the world
1) you can avoid backtracking by visiting Kamikochi on the way to okuhida. a youtube popped up about matsumoto and the people drove to okuhida. fall colors, probably early/mid-october, but at the top of the shinhotaka ropeway it was fogged in and snow. but coming down the ropeway had scenic views.
3) Kanazawa is a manageable size, really, less then 500,000 people. i think it gets referred to as little Kyoto, kyoto is three times larger. you would be there during crab season. there is a tourist loop bus. one full day is a minimum but two is better.
4) if you did that you could leave your stuff in Kyoto. i would hope that bus makes a stop at the ropeway up Koyasan and take it one way, at least
5) there are traditional ryokans at every one of your stops and along the way, and that don't cost 98000 yen per night for two. likely to find one in okuhida. there are a couple in takayama

I forgot to mention Gero Onsen. Gero is a famous onsen town about 50 min south of Takayama.

Progol, We had about a week in Tokyo, which was pretty hard to get a handle on in such a short time. I can't say I fell in love with the city but maybe that's cause I did not get to know it well enough. Due to the ageing issue, with concurrent minor ailments, we tried to keep the trip (2019) as simple as possible, with not too many different destinations. II had been to Hiroshima, and to Kyushu in the past, many years ago, and thought both were essential, in different ways, of course. But this trip was the first to Asia for my partner and I really wanted to keep it manageable. So we had: Tokyo (hotel near Tokyo Station..very happy with location, and with hotel); Kanazawa (Nikko); and then, since I really wanted to experience an onsen ryokan and the partner was squeamish about one with shared bathing, we chose Kayotei. It was quite an experience, one I will never forget, but as you said, the price was crazy high, I guess mainly due to the private in-room baths (actually on the terrace facing woodlands). Sleeping on the tatami mats was fabulous since I don't remember having done that in earlier trips. Well, fabulous until you needed to use the facilities during the night when the creakiness in both of us led to much groaning and much laughter from yours truly!! And not to mention the included dinner, seated on the floor, and the fish-centric breakfast. I am not sure partner would be all that eager to repeat the experience, and that is not even considering the price! (after that we spent about a week in Kyoto)

If you do change your mind and decide to take the plunge and visit Kayotei, I am here and delighted to recount further details.

One amusing thing happened when we alighted from the train in the station nearest Kayotei. We got off the train, dragging our bags; mine, of course was already heavy with ceramics and various foodstuffs purchased in Tokyo, not to mention the usual overpacking that I never seem to be able to overcome.
We alighted from the train and an elderly gentleman approached and took both our heavy bags and scampered along the platform, down the steps, and out the station exit. We assumed that this was the driver sent by Kayotei to collect us and bring us to the ryokan. But no, this man was a fellow passenger who evidently took pity on the clueless foreigners and thought to help us tote each and every one of our bags! He led us to the car pick-up area, set the bags down, bowed, and went on his way, leaving us with yet another memory of the kindness we so often encountered during our visit to Japan.

Thanks so much, mrwunrfl, for the additional ideas about Kamikochi. It’s definitely a place we will include but exactly where we’ll do it is still unclear, as I’m still trying to work out how to allocate the days. I’m planning to include the ropeway, too, as it looks like there are fabulous views and a dramatic way of experiencing the mountains. Thanks, too, for the info on Kanazawa - we will stay there for at least 3 nights, I think.

I don’t know if the Koyasan bus stops below the ropeway, but the convenience of the nonstop bus from Kyoto makes that trip doable for us. I wouldn’t do it otherwise.

ekscrunchy, much as I’d love to include Kayotei, I’m afraid it is just more than we are willing to spend. It looks great and I love its relationship to the crafts and other creative people in the area - between the location and the connection to crafts, I was sold. Except I must’ve seen what I wanted to see because when I checked the rates the first and second time, I saw very different prices! And thought, how affordable! Only later, when I looked again, did I realize I made a big error! Your description sounds wonderful, though, and, as people with aging/achey bodies, I’m also wondering about the ryokan experience! But of course, we do have to try it!

Okay, I think this is the basic plan, though I’m still toying with how best to allocate the days…

Tokyo-6
Matsumoto-3
Okuhida/Kamikochi -2
Takayama- 4
Kanazawa- 4
Kyoto-4/5
Koyasan-1
Kyoto-1/2

It looks like there’s enough to see and do in Kanazawa to warrant 4 days. It might be possible to do a day trip through the Noto Peninsula if we feel the need to get out of the city here. As I’ve said before, we also like small towns and cities, so, right now, I like the idea of 3 nights in Matsumoto and 4 nights in Takayama, but all of these are flexible. I’m also undecided whether to break Kyoto up into 4 nights/2 nights or 5/1, but I do think we’ll keep Koyasan now.

Nara or Koyasan? To keep it simple, I’m planning Nara as a day trip but not an overnight. But if I change the allocation of days, then I would consider a 2-night stay in Nara, but I’d probably eliminate Koyasan.

A four-night stay in Kanazawa would be 5 days.
Takayama to Kanazawa (via Toyama) is 6970, Hida L'ex to Hokuriku shinkansen on Day 1
Kanazawa to Kyoto is 7020, Thunderbird L'Ex on Day 5
That is 13,990 JPY total vs 14,260 for this pass
Takayama-Hokuriku Area Tourist Pass (japan-guide.com)

Paying the extra 270 gets a day trip from Kanazawa.
Shirakawago 1hr 31 min would be 2,600 each way
Kaga Onsen 25 min would be 2,060 each way

Kaga Onsen is on my wish list. The pass doesn't include Noto.

Interesting that this pass includes travel on both JR Cental and JR West. Nagoya to Inotani, which is between Takayama and Toyama, is JR Central. With other passes (JR West ones, I guess) you would pay for Takayama to Inotani and then use the pass from there on to Toyama.

Bus from Takayama to Shirakawago to Kanazawa on Day 1 would cost less than the above train route, so the pass would not be worthwhile if you chose that route, I think. You would still have 3 full days in Kanazawa and could do a day trip to Kaga Onsen.

>> Kyoto-1/2

Returning to Kyoto for 1 night doesn't seem worthwhile to me. I would probably go to Osaka for the night before a flight from Itami. Get some Osaka-style okonomiyaki. Or Nara would be an option.

(my other post went to the moderators and should appear above)

Again, it’s about convenience. It would make sense to go to Osaka but the return bus from Koyasan is direct to Kyoto. That’s why I’d consider going back to Kyoto rather than Osaka. Nara to Itami doesn’t seem to have a direct shuttle. I prefer to end in Kyoto or Osaka but I am still trying to avoid adding yet another large city to our trip, even if it’s only for a night or 2.

Me, too. I'm using both Navitime and Jorudan and starting to get used to them. At the moment, I'm mostly using them to price rides and figure out whether a JR pass makes sense. In our case, it's looking like "probably not." progol, that is the next fun part of planning!

JapanBusOnline has been useful for researching some bus routes/schedules (and potentially making advance reservations). There is a 2X daily direct bus from Matsumoto to Kamikochi (~1:40) that I have my eye on, but it is too early to book.

I thought about posting to a new thread about Navitime, Jourdan.

I went to the Alpico website and the reservaton link there went to Japan Bus Online. If you want to post your itin (just the stops, lengths of stay, travel days - first day being a travel day to the stop) i can help. Kind of a hobby of mine. Well, it was with hyperdia.

progol doesn't need a 7-day JR Pass, obviously, because of the lengths of stay. There is no way a 14-day pass would be worth it. Just the one regional rail/bus pass I linked above fit their itin, came close to break even. Found that after reviewing the rail passes described on japan-guide.

I think I mentioned a bus pass that might save a bit and fit their time in the Alps.

There might be a bus pass for the koyasan/itami travel, if that is kept in the itin. The Granvia Hotel in Kyoto station for one night would make those two bus rides super easy to connect.

found a Hirayu Onsent tourism page. good map. links to lodging. there is an english page
Stay｜Hirayu Onsen Tourism Association Hirayu Onsen Ryokan Cooperative Association [Official Website]

One place was mentioned upthread and it looks like it can be booked now through Oct 31.
【Official】Okuhida Onsenkyo Hirayu Takumi no Yado Miyama Sakuraan Reservation / Okuhida Hirayu Onsen Hotel Accommodation Information Hotel Spa - HOTESPA.net

Thanks, ms_go and mrwunrfl!

ms_go, the additional site for transportation is helpful. I've been using Google maps a lot and have learned to adjust the time, but otherwise, it seems pretty good.

mrwunrfl, thanks for all the links. I love the map centered on Hirayu Onsen! I'm inclined to stay in one of the nicer ryokans in one of the towns near the ropeway, Yarimikan (https://www.yarimikan.com/en.php). While a splurge for us, it's an acceptable splurge, and looks quite nice.

One thought - given that we're planning to stay in an Okuhida onsen and will take the ropeway, do you think we still should go to Kamikochi? It looks like there are enough walks in the area that we can have the experience of being in nature. We would only be going on an easy hike in Kamikochi, not one requiring serious walking!

I have also used rome2rio. I typed in yarimikan and rome2rio found it. I think. It says 27 min by bus every 2 hours to Hirayu Onsen. I find that a bit hard to believe, That is, am not sure the rome2rio location the same place as at your link

About that map: it shows the Hirayu BT.. It also shows the Ankandana Parking Lot near the top. The Alpico website says that it is a 10-min bus ride between the two. I mention this because it gives some scale to the map in terms of travel times.

Yarimikan is not on that HO tourist map. See the map, top right, the "To Abotoge"? I think Yarimikan is up that road. I think Yarmikan is in/near Shinhotaka Onsen (village). Google maps seems to confirm that and says it is a 27 min bus ride and 3 min walk from H.O.

Pretty sure Kamikochi is 25 minutes by bus from the Hirayu Onsen BT.

Yarmikan website access info (below) confused me at first. I think it is giving two travel times: 20 min from Yarimikan to the BT and another 20 min from there to Kamikochi. My guess is that would be by taxi (if taxis can actually travel to Kamikochi) to be only a 40 min trip.

Kamikochi
About 20 minutes to the bus transfer parking lot.（About 20 minutes to “Hirayu Bus Terminal”）
It is open from late April to November 15.
Access by regular vehicles is restricted to protect the natural environment.

>> do you think we still should go to Kamikochi?
(hmm, how to answer that direct question)

What I think you should not do is visit Kamikochi as a day trip from Matsumoto. I have more/less said that before. Your point about getting enough nature in Okuhida helps make that case. Stopping on the way or visiting Kamikochi from Okuhida makes more sense to me, given the travel times and backtracking involved with the day trip.

Kamikochi is really pretty. There is an easy walking loop and I would not be surprised to learn it was wheelchair accessible (based on what I remember there might have been a bit off to the left that wasn't flat, but none of it would be a "hike"). You could probably see it on youtube. There was a visitors center and you cross the nice bridge and there were a few restaurants and lodgings (and I stopped for a soak in a tiny bath). It was an enjoyable visit for a few hours and I would have liked to spend the night, but was ok not doing that.

Kamikochi certainly is optional for you. It could be a last-minute (or next to last-minute) decision.

I’ve looked at the Nohi bus schedules and I believe the bus from Hirayu onsen to the stop near the ryokan is no more than 25 minutes. It’s also very near the ropeway.

I like the map of HO because it shows so many things of interest and gives a nice feeling of the area. I did realize that the Yarimikan ryokan was not on the map!

That’s my feeling, too. I think we can decide at the time whether or not it’s “worth” it. I think we can easily do it as a day trip from Okuhida. It’s something that we’ll have as an option.

That's the place. Took me a while to figure it out. Nakaokogen-guchi bus stop, I think. From Takayama/Hirayu Onsen to Shinhotaka Ropeway | 濃飛バス公式サイト (nouhibus.co.jp)

def more often than 2 hours. Maybe the Alpico bus goes up there every two hours (from Kamikochi)