"Hearing that soap and water is best, is a meaningless statement." Geeez, Spygirl, why do you have to get so nasty with your comments. As it happens, Kathie is a nurse. Can't you accept another's suggestion without getting into a tiff? Some of your posts are helpful and pleasant & then you go off on these tirades. So unnecessary. What do you do for a living? Perhaps that colors your attitude....

Aloha! It's good to see the Hawaii enclave out in full force tonight.

You're asking for it Kathie ;-)

I should add, that one of the doctors I "heard" it from was at the ritzy travelers medical doctors clinic I go to in midtown Manhattan. I would trust their opinion as just a wee bit more knowledgeable.

Laurie -- if it's the same ritzy clinic I went to in midtown NY I wouldn't believe anything they said. They tried to put me on larium although I told them I had a condition that would have made it dangerous. And they were 100% wrong. Fortunately before I took the drug I checked with my internest and a specialist who were both horrified.

I doubt it's the same place. They've nevr even suggested Lariam to me. My husband takes it but he goes to a different place for his pre-trip consultations. How long ago were you in NY?

I lived in NY from 168-1997. They gave me this advice in 1992 when I was going to Vietnam.

Couldn’t agree more regarding washing hands, but I’m totally unconvinced about cooked poultry. So I ask: what if someone produced a sick chicken that tested positive for H5N1 avian flu and killed the sucker and chopped it up and deep fried some of it, and stir-fried some of it, and boiled some of it, and all of it was well cooked, then served up. Would you eat it? Hell No! Only a lunatic would take a risk eating that foul fowl. Why take a risk?

Gloria, even if it wee the same place, I'm sure the personnel has changed. The place I go to has always given me very good advice and I've never had any problems with them. They do a lot of research and are very well informed and always pass that info on.

TexasSlim, you're correct, I would not knowlingly eat a bird I knew was infected, even well cooked. I don't think I would enjoy it. But on the other hand, I was just in Malaysia and ate a lot of chicken. From what is known, if it's cooked well, there is no danger and I'll continue to eat it until/unless something to the contrary comes out. But, if you aren't comfortable eating poultry, then by all means, you shouldn't. Nobody should do anything they aren't comfortable with.

TexasSlim: from the Newsweek article mentioned by Janedee above:

"...a family in Vietname whose flock was ordered destroyed when it showed signs of avian flu - so they frugally slaughtered and ate the birds that didn't seem sick. Within a week they were violently ill. (They survived)."

The article doesn't mention how the chickens were cooked, but it really doesn't seem to matter. The family could have gotten sick from handling the birds or they could have gotten sick from eating the birds. It's not clear. This flu is such a will-o-the-wisp, so hard to grab ahold.

The article also says: "After incubating for eight years in East Asia....the H5N1 variant of avian flu suddenly and mysteriously expanded its range this year."

Well, I had a confab with my travelling companions and we've decided to err on the side of caution and postpone the trip until further information is forthcoming.

To all you living in or travelling to Asia, we will pray that the flu gives you a wide berth.

Well the flu is now in Europe and I suspect will be in the U.S. soon so from my perspective it won't much matter where you live. And Thailand at least has plenty of the tamiflu which the U.S. does not have. Based on how the thai government responded to the tsunami and how the US government responded to katrinia, I figure I'm probably better off in thailand if there is a pandemic. Or at least I'll worry if and when this turns into something that is spread from human to human. Before then I'll go by the CDC and eat well cooked eggs and poultry and won't worry about it. In a world where there are so many things to fear (I mean the US has mad cow disease but people are still eating meat) I just won;t give in to those fears. As I have often said -- I'm not afraid of dying but I am afraid of not living because of fear.

But as we have all said everyone has to know their comfort zone. Just base it on facts -- not a hysterical media.

Well said Gloria. Maybe the answer to the flu/mad cow/terorism problem is to go live in a cave and only eat what you grow. I can't live in such fear. I understand taking precautions and I do so, but I can't take it to such extremes that it impinges on my daily living.

A very good article from the NYT on travel and the avian flu.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/travel/30prac.html

Kathie-- I was just about to post the same article. Finally a clear and non hysterical article that sticks to the facts. What interests me is that the bird flu was in thailand last year but because our media didn't pick up on it no one cared.

You know, when I was just in Malaysia, the bird flu wasn't even on the radar over there. The big story was dengue fever. There are outbreaks all over and THAT was what the government over there was concerned with. There were even tv commercials on how to protect oneself from getting dengue. It makes one wonder why, all of a sudden, our gov't is so interested in bird flu. Maybe I have an overly suspicious mind where this administration is concerned, but I can't help but wonder, if things here were going smoothly, would the bird flu be such a big story?

Got my Nursing News magazine in the mail yesterday. Interesting, the bird flu has been around for a long time. There was an outbreak in the trenches during WW1. The article said "OK in the morning, sick at noon, and dead by dark" I don`t remember how many died, but a lot. It was gone by the next year I believe.

Laurie-- there were just commentators saying that B's speech next week on avian flu while much needed was also the sort of thing he should do politically to change the subject and to look like he's on top of stuff. I also wonder why the hysteria came along right after the katrina fiasco.

Pat, you are referring to the huge flu epidemic of 1918. It killed more people than combat did in WWI. Note that it is not the same avian infleunza virus that is of concern now; these viruses mutate constantly. But there is concern that the current avian flu virus may be similar in some ways to that virus.

All of the human influenza viruses come to us via animals, typically pigs or birds. Southern China and SE Asia are considered the "incubators" for human infleunza viruses.

It is because of the constant mutation that we have new formulations for flu shots every year. Flu epidemics are cyclical, and every so often there is a pandemic. We are "overdue" (statsitically) for a pandemic. Most of the time these pandemics are deadly for the very young and the very old. The pandemic of 1918 was deadly for the young healthy adults. Researchers are concerned about possible parallels between the pandemic of 1918 and what would happen if the avian flu virus mutated to allow person to person transmission.

The article says Bird flu was identified in Italy more than 100 years ago.Recently, scientists linked it to a strain that jumped from birds to humans in 1918 and killed young healthy fighting men at the time, during ww1. I`m sure we are referring to the same outbreak. It killed 50 million people world wide. There was an outbreak in Hongkong in 1997 too, that went from chickens to humans, but I don`t remember hearing anything about that. mutation is a big problem.

Pat, sorry, I wasn't clear. Yes, we are talking about the same outbreak in 1918, but I was just making the distinction that flu in 1918 and the Avian flu now are not the same virus, but are in the same family of viruses.

The outbreak of the Avian flu in Hong Kong in 1997 appears to be the first appearance of this particular strain of Avian flu. It was not widely publicised in the US, though the public health officials were saying the same thing then that they are now. The concern was that the virus would make the leap to being transmitted from person to person. The poultry markets in Hong Kong were all closed down and sanitized and hundred of thousands of chickens and ducks were killed in Hong Kong and in the nearby provinces to try to stop the virus.

In subsequent years, this strain reappeared in southern China and VN, and spread into Thailand and Cambodia and other countries in SE Asia (now identified in Malaysia and Indonesia, probably in Burma as well). It has appeared several times in the last few years after it looked to be under control.

It's important to remember that this strain has not yet mutated to allow for person to person transmission, which is what would have to happen for an epidemic. The cases in Hong Kong in 1997 were chicken to person transmission, as have all of the cases since with a few exceptions of very close person to person contact.

Hi all - Wondering if you can help on this topic. I'm not sure yet how comfortable I feel ordering chicken while we're over in Thailand in November. For better or worse, I've resigned myself to the fact that it's likely too hard to avoid all foods cooked with eggs.

My biggest concern is that I'll be eating at an outdoor stall and not know how to determine which foods contain chicken and which don't. Any help/advice? I know these boards indicate that a lot of Thai speak English, but didn't know if there was a phrase I could use, or something to that effect.

Thanks! - Pam

Pam, I don't think it would help, because what could you ask the cook really, whatever you ask will be greeted with a smile, you can't really try asking if the chicken has come from a safe area or whatever.
Anyway I had eggs for lunch yesterday and we had chicken tonight ( in Thailand ) , that's the way it goes, I am not diminishing any risks, I certainly would not sit fown in chicken muck on a chicken farm but I wouldn't do that anywhere anyway, if you are concerned then don't eat chicken, but the risks are just so tiny and minute they totaly pale in comparison with say getting serious food poisoning or something from seafood ( especialy shellfish ), getting any kind of bug when traveling ( France or Italy ? ), but that can go for anywhere, I am more concerned with general hygene , things like Dengue fever etc, people often ask about taking jabs going to certain countries but totaly forget that even at home their Tetanus shots should be kept up to date.
Taking unnecessary risks is simply crazy but the other side is you need perspective and a balance of risks involved compared with day to day risks anywhere ( Nile Fever is it I read about in the US ? ) , during the whole last SARS thing it still paled in comparison to the numbers who die by the minute from malaria, dengue fever and other diseases worldwide, Menengitas is still big is many countries I believe.
I am quite confident that at least in Thailand the Government takes necessary actions and in the past when in doubt hundreds of thousands of chickens were destroyed and it was highly efficient and organised in dealing with a potential risk.
I wish it was easier to find clear information with a balanced perspective. These travel warnings etc I am very sorry to say are often very 'one sided', something happens in one part of the world is treated a whole lot different to when it happens in 'another' part of the world.

Laurieco, I have a good friend who lives up north, couple of years back in heavy rains he waded just ankle deep, not too bad, back home, next day he was in a terrible condition in hospital, Dengue fever!! Took him ages and ages to recover. In Australia during the SARS thing a Govrnment medical spoekman reminded everyone that every winter in Australia they anticipate around 2,500 deaths from 'normal flu'.

Everyone needs to make their own decisions about what feels safe for them. I keep abreast of the infectious disease developments, as you can see from my posts.

I'm headed to Bangkok (and Borneo) in November, and I plan to eat eggs, chicken and duck. We know that the virus is killed by heat, so cooked foods are fine. While I love markets, I will stay out of livestock markets on this trip. I'm always conscientious about hand-washing, but I will be even more aware of it this trip. I'm getting my regular flu shot today. That's the extent of my precautions.

(By the way, I don't eat from street stalls - ever - anywhere in the world. I do eat at small local places and carefully observe food and water precautions. I do eat salads and such at some 5 star places, and use ice where it is commercially made.)

Kathie and James A: well said and very rational approach!

I'd agree with almost everything that has been posted. For my part, this thread has not been a means for me to spread panic or to encourage a particular political agenda. Being the major planner for our group I was concerned for my companions. The idea of going to Asia was nixed by a couple who are constant travelers, having been to New Zealand, Hawaii (twice), and Mexico this year. If I were going just by myself, I might still decide to go. As it is, we haven't really decided not to go, just to shelf the idea for a few months.

Furthermore, we were not planning on Thailand but going into the south of China and Vietnam. Having been to some of the places that we were planning on visiting, I had concerns about the hygiene. On a 3-4 week trip, we will have to eat in local places and drink local tea. There are only so many granola bars one can consume in that period of time - lo!

BTW, the History Channel had a very interesting program on last night. I caught it after it had started and when it was already into the Black Death period. Plagues have swept through the world at one time or another - we do share this earth with many other species, some of which find us wonderful hosts even if we don't want to be those hosts! Anyway, the show did indicate one unintended "benefit" from the Black Death - it broke the stranglehold which the Catholic Church had on Europe and contributed to starting the Renaissance.

The History Channel show ended with a lengthy scenario of worst case for the avian flu or some other pandemic. All travel would be stopped; schools closed, etc. In other words, it would be like the Black Death sweeping the world during modern times. Personally, I don't regard the History Channel as having any kind of political agenda and I, therefore, found this scenario very thought-provoking.

Maybe there is something wrong with me but neither I nor my traveling companion are at all concerned. We absolutely plan on going in January and will certainly eat chicken, duck and eggs. I will avoid live chickens but I did that last time I was in thailand for the same reason. If this turns into a pandemic I'll worry about it. But right now I figure there is a much better chance of getting west nile virus right here in the states or getting the regular flu which kills over 30,000 people per year here -- I DO get a flu shot.

I mean let's put this into perspective-- 62 people have died and all were exposed to sick chickens. More died of west nile virus in IL this year and no one is saying people should not come to IL. Am I missing something?

JamesA, I'm glad your friend recovered from dengue. To be honest, that's my biggest fear regarding travel to Southeast Asia (after a stomach bug that is). Mosquitoes carrying dengue are out during the daytime, unlike the mosquitoes that carry malaria. Since I always take Malarone, at least I feel I'm somewhat protected from malaria. But there is no protection from dengue, other than not getting bitten, and no matter how much I cover up and no matter how much Deet I use, I always get bitten anyway. The little buggers love me for some reason so dengue for me is a much bigger threat than anything else, including avian flu.

laurieco:
Do you where any type of perfume during the day...I know that attracts them.
Aloha!

finally someone talking sense, bird flu has been with birds since adam, ever thought the reason no pandemics is because of flu shots, of all the little bugs out there the mos is very scarey. i fully believe drug companys are loving this $$$$$$$$$$$$. There are some very scared people out there who will beleive anything. Go on holiday enjoy this planet befor Mr Bush Mr Blair and Johnny lap dog blow it up

Well, but Gloria, I think it needs to be pointed out that regular flu is a very very different strain from the extremely deadly avian flu-most people do recover from regular and common influenza strains-but that is NOT true of avian flu, and if it becomes a pandemic, it could wipe out millions-obviously far more than the 30,000 people or so who die of regular influenza (and who are mostly elderly or immune system impaired).

Because so little is known at this point about how the virus is transmitted, from animal to human, and human to human, I think it does behoove one to be very prudent about the chicken or egg question (which comes first?) in those areas where the strain is located, and where people have already died of it.

Hawaiiantraveler, no I don't wear perfume. Mosquitoes have loved me ever since I can remember. When I was a child, I would get completely bitten up while the rest of my family didn't. It's nice to be loved but this I could do without!

Well Bird flu is now in Canada so cancelling a trip really seems silly.

"Because so little is known at this point about how the virus is transmitted..."

Not true. We have lots of data on that question. I recommend the cdc and who websites for brief synopses of what we know. Check medical journals online for more detailed info. What we don't know is how virulent the strain will be if it mutates to be readily transmitted from person to person.

What I have stated is factually correct:

Scientists do not presently know how the avian strains of the virus are transmitted to humans-this taken directly FROM the CDC website:

"Most cases of avian influenza infection in humans are THOUGHT to have resulted from direct contact with infected poultry or contaminated surfaces. However, there is still a lot to learn about how different subtypes and strains of avian influenza virus might affect humans. For example, it is not known how the distinction between low pathogenic and highly pathogenic strains might impact the health risk to humans."

Meaning they do not now know whether, or how, an avian viral subtype may mutate into a highly contagious form between humans, thus causing a pandemic.

Accordingly, to state that they "know a great deal" about how the virus is transmitted is stretching it, to say the least, and there is nothing on the CDC or Mayo Clinic website to indicate anything to the contrary.

And nobody said anything about cancelling a trip to Asia based on avian flu (at least, not at this point). But one should realize that SE Asia is a breeding ground and originator of highly infectious and deadly animal to human viruses. In the case of avian flu, that means exercising good judgment concerning eating chicken, ducks and eggs, and not going to farms, realizing that birds that do not succumb to the virus continue to excrete the virus orally and through feces for nearly two weeks after becoming infected.

Ah, Sandy-- it's people like you who make me ashamed to be an American. For that matter it makes me ashamed to be a member of the human race. But I am sure that people like Hitler, pol Pot, Stalin and members of the KKK would agree with you.

well they had their tax papers conference in oz and at the end of it all they all come out saying no more scare mongering that was the only thing the so called experts could come up with and guess what there is no more deaths than usual from bird flu just dont lick the poop and you will be ok. Its just that the worlds over due for a big sickie....ever thought it might be mother natures way of keeping the population in balance.hehehehe

If you click on SandyO, you will see it has only 4 posts, all today, all nasty. Could this be that Japan hating nutcase that surfaces every now and then with a different screen name because it constantly gets booted off? By the way, I call SandyO "it" because it is not deserving to be classified as human, animal or vegetable.

Go away it, we don't want your kind here.

Very well said, Gpanda! >:D<

SandyO" I wouldn't worry too much about the US or Australia getting hit.

Statistics from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute:

Total military spending in the world was $900 billion for 2003. Of that half was being spent by the US as it's "declared" DOD (Department of Defense) budgets. [Not included were the war in Iraq expenditures, which amount to about 1.1 billion a DAY today].

To gain a better perspective of what this massive sum means, you can compare the US military expenditures with the expenditures of other nations. Statistics also given by the Swedish institute:

US military spending is more than the military spending of the next TWENTY-THREE nations combined! In fact, the US and its allies - Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and South Korea account for from 2/3 to 3/4 of all military spending.

US military budget is 8 times that of China; it is 29 times larger than the combined military spending of the 7 countries the US regards as "enemy states": Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan & Syria (these 7 states spent a total of 14.4 billion in 2003).

The 7 political enemy states PLUS Russia and China spend 116 billion a year on their military or 27.6% of the US budget (2003 statistics).

The top five military budgets are:US, Japan, UK, France, and China.

As for arms transfer: in 1998 total arms transfers was 118 billion. The US was and is the major supplier. Between 1995 - 1999 the US alone supplied almost as many weapons as all other nations combined.

So, SandyO, no nation is going to want to commit suicide by attacking the US or one of its allies, especially a "rogue" nation that does not have nuclear weapons.

Oh, BTW, just the nuclear missiles on the US submarine fleet and not counting any other nuclear weaponry, just the submarine missiles can wipe out the ENTIRE POPULATION of the world FIVE times over.

So, feel safe, SandyO. You can feel safe because there are billions of people around the world who are worried about what the US will be doing with its massive military might. "Defending freedom", "promoting democracy" in their own country?

To everyone else: Sorry, for hijacking this thread by posting something which has nothing to do with avian flu.

Sandy, the Avian flu has thus far killed very few people. The concern is that it may mutate to become readily transmitted from person to person. If it does it will not be confined to any one continent, and has the potential to kill many millions of people. So be careful what you wish for in terms of divine retribution - the divine may not be on your side.