Please, people. Only buy full-fare refundable tickets!
 

So, in the last 2-3 days alone, I've read multiple threads on this board and on flyertalk.com about how the airlines are screwing them. Not getting her sister to Okinawa on a reward ticket, not rescheduling him because he punched in the wrong date and not realizing it, not giving her and her husband refunds because of a medical issue, etc...

I have a very strong suggestion for all those people. Buy a full-fare refundable ticket. Don't tell me how expensive they are... Plenty of you keep saying how bad the airlines' services are comparing to years ago. Well, if you adjust for inflation, your full-fare Y ticket probably is still cheaper than it was 20+ years ago. So, pay up and stop complaining. Many airlines will even give you complimentary first-class upgrades, or at least put you in front of the upgrade list.

Also, please <b>do not</b> care about FF miles and FF awards. Since you can't claim them anyways (as many of you believe), why even bother? FF awards didn't exist 25 years ago, and you weren't complaining, were you?

Anyways, with more of you guys paying full-fare Y tickets, the airlines may be able to earn some money and improve service for all of us. I will be forever grateful.

So, let me beg all of you. Next time you fly, buy a full-fare refundable ticket. You'll be happier, I'll be happier, and the airline will be happier. Isn't that a &quot;win-win-win&quot; situation?

:D

While I might not be running off to buy fully refundable tickets, I have to agree with you regarding the prices of airline tickets today, versus 20 or 30 years ago. I still have my first every airline ticket in it's original AA boarding pass jacket... ok, so I'm a pack rat.

In the 60s, I paid r/t JFK/SFO/JFK $314. Since then I have made this same trip so many times I can't count and only once did I pay a tad more - believe it was $325...and yet today one can often get a non-refundable for way less then what I paid so many years ago.

Folks should, either, purchase trip insurance to cover non-refundable whatever, for justifiable reasons, or pay change fees of $50-$100 each.

The airlines are in business to make money, and with many prices as low as they are, it's not surprising what's happening to the industry. I'm with you on this rkkwan.

I would be with you if the ticket prices had any consistency or relationship to the reality of the cost of a trip. As long as the airlines use ploys like discounts for advance-purchase tickets and then -- relatively speaking -- overprice full fare refundable tickets, it would be flat stupid to do that. But you would howl in derision at anyone who paid $500 for something others get at $239. just to ensure refundability. And what other industry gets away with slamming you with such amazing penalty fees?

What you're really saying is people should stop whining if airlines are unpredictable about their policies, have changed how they treat people for the worse, or people have mishaps in their lives.

What many of the people you're so contemptuous of are saying is that they feel abused by the industry. Which they are.

I don't feel contemptuous of the industry in the least. As convoluted as the system is, it provides incredible value to people willing to do their homework. There is some risk in non-refundable tickets, but it is well-compensated. I couldn't have seen a third of the places I've visited under the economics that existed years ago.

We only travel once or twice a year. So we save in advance to purchase first class tickets if the flight is more than a few hours. The seat is a lot more comfy. Mostly we purchase the &quot;A&quot; fare or the restricted first class fare.

kwan, let me ask you. Are we safe from being bumped with a restricted first class fare? So far for the past several years flying this way has been fine. Do you see any problems we could fall into by purchasing this type fare..such as a bump or anything else?

<b>soccr</b>,

if the fares were realistic then this Fodor's forum would probably not exist. The $200 fares should be happy that there are people paying $1000 fares (THE REALISTIC FARES).

I'm with <b>rkkwan</b> on this one. The airlines are willing to fill the empty seats at cost, but they DO put restrictions on these. If you decide to go the cheap route, REALIZE the consequences if something goes wrong and live with it. If you can't, then buy the realistic fare! Simple as that!.

Great post <b>rkkwan</b>!



And this whole idea of &quot;what other industry?&quot;?, well... try to buy a laptop at BestBuy, CircuitCity, etc and return it couple of weeks later. It's possible, AFTER a 15-25% restocking fee. WHY, because people abused the system in the OLD days (guilty as charged). Buy a nice laptop with DVD player, take it on vacation and return it 2 weeks later. The airlines are not exclusive to penalty charges. Other industries adjust accordingly as well. The cheap fares allow many people to see the world, but they do come with rules and regulations. I think it's a fair trade-off for many people.

You, <b>soccr</b> should look at the benefits of the cheap fares, NOT the cost of the expensive fares as they are the REAL ones.

Thanks for all the responses. Basically, I'm just a little fed up this week with a whole bunch of people - many of them frequent flyers - whining about how a certain airline mistreated them. THREE cases of trying to attend an important wedding when they don't allow any hiccups in the schedule, and then expect the airline to accomodate them or compensate them with big dollars - while flying the cheapest fare or a FF award ticket!!! Simply amazing.

Anyways, many of those situation may be better taken cared of if they've bought a full-fare ticket to start with. And if one wants a refund, buy a refundable ticket. Simple as that....

Enough whining on my part. Now we can go back to the regularly scheduled program. :D

Isn't it just another example of &quot;you get what you pay for&quot; and those griping are those who want more than what they paid for. I will continue to buy the lowest price ticket I can find, and realize that then I must be the one taking the risk and the fall if I need to change. Over time, it has more than been cost-effective - the money I save has been more than offset by the very few times I need to pay a change fee.

I still think that the gambling paradigm shouldn't be the analogy here. And I agree that some of the &quot;whinging&quot; (one of my favorite Britishisms) about special perks goes over the top, although the whole medical/death situation is one in which the industry has become seriously Scroogelike. I'm sure their rationale (aside from their basic economic problems) comes from past abuses, but with documentation?

But the contempt for passengers in general is palpable, and rather than fix the system in general, they don't just nickel-and-dime them -- they $100 and $250 them. AA, you're apparently in no position to shake fingers at people you think abuse the airline system ;-), but do note that the actual price of Dells and other laptops has come down across the industry -- retailing just doesn't have the same structure and challenges that transportation does. But seriously, would you really pay $2000 for a $1000 laptop just to make sure you could return it?

I think both AAFF and rkkwan are tarring with the same brush both abusers of the system and people legitimately disappointed by an airline. It may be partly because you both are in the position of being able to fly often, to many places, and often in premium situations -- which is the position of many by hardly all Fodorites. Indeed, rkkwan even talks about people who are frequent flyers who should somehow know better, as if being a frequent flyer should somehow make you accustomed to mistreatment, bizarre pricing, and punitive policies.

But the fact that there IS a lot of whining AND the industry is in trouble should suggest something more than that passengers are just all spoiled brats.

... many but hardly all Fodorites....

And before AAFF corrects my question about buying a laptop to say, &quot;well, what if the laptop actually costs $2500.?&quot; That in itself tells you how messed up the system is.

1. I totally agree that airline pricing is often absurd and illogical. But it's also been this way for a long time. There's nothing surprising about that.

2. Yes, a frequent <b>discount fare</b> flyer should know about that, along with the fact that you can't get a refund on a non-refundable ticket, and there are charges for changes. That's exactly my point of the whole thread. <b>If one doesn't care to learn the rules, one can always just buy a full-fare refundable ticket.</b>

3. My family and I have always flown discount fares, and we are grateful for the business (or otherwise) people who pay full fare as well as the bizzare airline pricing structure. But have we been snapped with change fees and penalties? Of course! But those rules and clearly stated, and have you heard me complaining about them? NO! In fact, one time, we <b>couldn't be happier</b> to hand $75 per itinerary to CO to redeposit some Onepass miles in order to issue new BusinessFirst FF awards.

Anyways, maybe that's just my philosophy. When I see something absurd or bizzare - like airline rules and pricing - I like to learn about them and take advantage of the knowledge. But at the same time I know who are paying the bills for the airlines, and that's certainly not me. I realize there are others who just don't care or refuse to learn. There are two ways for them - 1) complain and complain; 2) buy full-fare refundable tickets (and don't play FF games). The purpose of my original post is to tell those people option #2.

rkkwan you are RIGHT on. I have paid change fees, and continue to pay them from time to time. Always happy to do so since I normally buy tickets at very low prices. Usually stick with change fee vs non refundable.

Would also like to see an option for all those grumblers: $75. fee for dinner and a few free drinks. Then how many would complain about rubber chicken or having to pay $4. for a beer on a LAX-NYC flight that they paid the whopping fare of $279. return. My guess is that they would NEVER buy the option and hence would not be able to complain on this board.

I didn't see a reply to the question posed earlier in the thread:

Author: El_Swainer
Date: 02/04/2005, 09:55 pm

Message: We only travel once or twice a year. So we save in advance to purchase first class tickets if the flight is more than a few hours. The seat is a lot more comfy. Mostly we purchase the &quot;A&quot; fare or the restricted first class fare.

kwan, let me ask you. Are we safe from being bumped with a restricted first class fare? So far for the past several years flying this way has been fine. Do you see any problems we could fall into by purchasing this type fare..such as a bump or anything else?

* * *

Answer: No, there is no particular problem with this. Involuntary bumps happen occasionally, but they're not at all common. A lot of people are tuned in to the bumping game and they are happy to volunteer for compensation. The few times I've seen involuntary bumps come up have almost always involved small capacity planes. If you have advance seat assignments and you check in on time, your chances of getting involuntarily bumped are very, very small.

On many flights, you can check in online 24 hours in advance. It's convenient and it can get you out in front of the herd. Can things still happen? Sure, but it almost certainly wouldn't have anything to do with buying the kind of tickets you describe.

rkkwan, if you couldn't be happier to pay a penalty, then go in peace without your money. But that doesn't mean others have to be happy with it, nor does it give you some special status to chastise people who are irked nor to urge them to pay more just so you won't be irked by their criticism of the airlines.

Flyboy thankyou for addressing my question. I had been wondering if a restricted first class fare is an inferior product such as a discount coach fare is inferior to full fare coach. My wife and I can save and splurge on a restricted first class fare but we could not afford a full fare first class. Thanks for your input.

The airline industry is unique in that the bread and butter customers are the ones that pay the highest prices - business travellers. The low fare game is in place to attract the fringe flyers, namely vacationers who can have other options available.

If I get a call this afternoon to be somewhere tomorrow, then i need to be there. Might be returning in the afternoon and might not know when i'm returning. My employer pays for this kind of service.

When I plan a vacation this summer I have time to plan ahead, have choices of destinations, can change dates to fit a fare sale or i can opt to drive somewhere. The airlines will work to obtain my fare to fill the plane.

I want to have everything go just as planned in both cases, but in the first case it must go as planned. In the latter i would likely have some flexibility.

Yes, i guess its a case of getting what you pay for.

&lt;Also, please do not care about FF miles and FF awards. Since you can't claim them anyways....&gt;

I have used FF miles over the last several years to get award tickets worth MANY THOUSANDS of dollars.

FF award travel is clearly a benefit.

Dick - My family and I have claimed over 300,000 miles for award travel in 2004, including international trip, business class trips, last-minute trips, etc...

But if you get the tone of my original post ;) you'll see what I'm trying to tell those people who whine about not getting the FF dates.

[I don't want to name names, but it's <b>on this board</b> just within the last week that a fodorite says he/she cannot find a single Florida-Houston award for the whole month of Feb on Continental, or something like that. I logged in to continental.com as a non-elite, and found that at least for about 20 of the 28 days, there were standard 25K awards available for MIA-IAH. And that's for just one airport!]

Anyways, when you quote me, please don't leave out the part that follows directly: &quot;<b>(as many of you believe)</b>&quot;. You're misquoting me if you leave that part out! Hahaha... :D

It may be qouting you out of context..but it wasn't misquoting...LOL

As for FF awards, I think in the last several years I have booked award travel that would have cost me over $40,000. if I had to pay.

Consider using consolidators and trying to purchase &quot;cheap&quot; tickets on INTERNATIONAL routs...

Just last month I flew Alitalia to Israel, paying $738 RT. I got the ticket from my travel agent who is also an Alitalia consolidator. I checked the same exact flight on line, and the cheapest I got was $1,078. The FULL coach fare for that same exact flight was about $1,600....

See, we the &quot;poor&quot; people, who still NEED to fly overseas to visit an old mother and a sick father in-law --- benefit TREMENDOUSLY from the ability to purchase those &quot;cheap&quot; tickets... Saving HUNDREDS of Dollars.

...While spending tens of thousands on the best college education for our kids.

I am with rkkwan on this one. Have you ever had theatre tickets and been not able to go and then complained that the theatre wouldn't honor them later? Do you routinely expect people to feed you for free when you're out on a public bus or train? Do you deliberately buy a 36 inch tv and then get irate when it is indeed 36 inches and not a 54 inch? Do you expect wine and mixed drinks to be free when you are at a restaurant simply because you're there? These are a few of the things that boggle the mind! You buy a seat for an event-a flight. You are paying to hurtle through space at 500 miles per hour on a certain date and only that date. No where else do people expect so much that they do not pay for. Airlines used to do all kinds of things, then Southwest made the rules. People get angry because now everyone has to follow them. Next time you get mad about what isn't there anymore, call Southwest and say &quot;hey thanks!&quot;

FF miles are fine, you just NEED to be flexible. I have cashed in $2500 worth of tickets this month alone. I may not have got the exact times I wanted, but close enough.

I agree with rkkwan's comments, esp about the FF tickets. I have been fortunate enough to build enough miles to actually use (over $2000 savings!)But they are freebies - totally at the discretion of the airlines. I have to fit into THEIR rules and schedules. How? Be flexible and plan very far in advance. And always remember they are bonuses, not entitlements.

I agree with soccr and mamamia on this one.

And in my opinion, some of you are sounding obnoxious and elitist. I've been travelling for so many years - I'm on a plane all the time. And I rarely see customer service so inadequate as at the airport or while in the air. It's all about the bottom line with airlines. And while I rarely bother to complain, I can't believe that you all would actually defend this system - and say that because it's been like this for so long, we should accept it and not ever expect anything better.

And for the record, in the last 5 years, I've never been able to use FF miles. They make it nearly impossible. And the only reason why this is particularly annoying is because the airlines offered these programs in the first place; incentive to continue using that airline. So you pay the interest rates, you put everything on the card (paying it off at the end of the month, ofcourse) - and in the end, there are no rewards. That's what pisses people off. It just reminds them of yet another scam.

How are we elitists? From what I'm reading, most of the people who've responded to this thread, myself included, fly discount coach. Also, I don't see any of us being obnoxious here. [Well, maybe except me in my original post - but it was meant to be provocative. I deliberately chose that tone.]

Anyways, you seem very unhappy with the FF programs. That's exactly my point. Don't bother with them. Don't bother signing up - that will save you lots of brain cells. Or if you do, donate all of them to charities.

<b>By the way</b>, almost all airlines have some kind of double-mile awards that have lots of availability. If you fly business class internationally, they are good deals even at that rate. 200K miles to Europe, 240K miles to Asia. Excellent deal when a business-class ticket to those destinations often cost $4,000+.

You are elitists because you have clearly reached premier-enough status not to get into some of the troubles that confront more infrequent travelers do -- and you get treated better, which is part of why you went for premier status. And there is also an essential &quot;elitism&quot; in telling people who have to watch every penny to buy really expensive tickets or shut up if they don't like how they're treated. &quot;They don't have bread? let them eat cake -- they don't have flexibility in affordable coach or they don't get treated well? let them buy expensive tickets or be quiet.&quot;

What she said.

<b>Cassandra</b>,

If it wasn't for the high fare paying customer, the ones that have to watch their pennies to travel, would not be able to fly at all. If all things were equal then the average fare to Europe would be around $2000-$3000 per(the real fare). If you think that the $500 fare makes money for the airline? you are dreaming. At best it covers the cost.

Is that what you want?

Ah... So, I see that some of you aren't happy the airlines have multiple-layer fare structure, and that they treat their best customers differently.

I can see your argument, and we can discuss this forever which is the &quot;right&quot; way for a company to conduct its business. Maybe you are correct that it's more &quot;fair&quot; that instead of having some people paying $1,000 for a coast-to-coast domestic roundtrips with all the perks (chance of upgrade, refundable tickets, bonus frequnet flier points, preferred check-in), and people paying $200 for the same seat with nothing, we should all pay $600 for the same ticket.

That's a fair argument. But ask yourself honestly if you'll be happy then when you need to pay $600?

And BTW, you can indeed do that. While Southwest Airlines do have cheaper fares, their most expensive tickets are only $299 one-way coast-to-coast refundable anytime, no restriction, no nothing. And nobody gets first-class upgrades, nobody has seat assignment. And I don't think they have an &quot;elite&quot; program in their Rapid Rewards program. Also, no bad airline food to complain about. Life is so much easier there.

And I have to say that WN's a better model too. They have been earning money every year, when other airlines have been bleeding millions.

So, here's an additional suggestion for those people who complain - <b>please please please fly Southwest or other low-cost airlines whenever possible,</b> even if their fares may be higher than the discount fares elsewhere. [Meanwhile, the remaining elitists among us can fleece off the &quot;majors&quot; until they all go bankrupt.] And we'll all be happy.

You two are obnoxious on this point. That whole &quot;if it weren't for us big-bucks people, you wouldn't be able to fly at all&quot; is also obnoxious and not entirely true. If it weren't for the legions of those who fly coach and can never use their FF miles, you wouldn't get your upgrades and fly for nothing in Business or First. I don't disagree that it's a screwed up system, but the subsidy isn't from top down. And where is it written that if you don't pay a premium price, you deserve to be treated badly? Notice too, the discount airlines don't fly out of all airports. And finally, you notice that price wasn't the focal point of a number of these posts -- it was how policy was carried out.

I think rkkwan's original post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek and has been misinterpreted a little.

Look, everyone wants to be treated as well as possible, even &quot;better than average&quot; on average. I too have noted that some folks b!tch about airline service without mentioning (or realizing) that as a percentage of average disposable income air travel has become way cheaper over the years, and probably would have even if Southwest hadn't come along. If you want to see this phenomenon in its most graphic form, look at the proliferation of budget carriers in Europe.

In those cases, you pay for everything, including the &quot;magazine&quot; in the seatpocket, if you want to take it with you. But people know those are the rules, and that if you want to fly on a legacy carrier in Europe, you'll get free stuff only by paying more for your seat.

In North America it seems people want it both ways - cheapo seats, free stuff <i>and</i> good service.

I myself would gladly cough up the extra $25 or $50 for a (now) $300 flight if I could have a seat that's an inch wider and three inches farther from the seatback in front of me. (Reduce seats by 15% to make &quot;MRTC&quot; and add 15% to the price.) That way, if I have to work on the plane, I can do so, the benefits of which are way greater to me income-wise than the $50 extra I'd spend on the seat.

Others may disagree; for them that $50 is a day's car rental on vacation or cab fare to their hotel. And statistically (evidently) the yield-management computers in the airline say it's better to capture that market share than it is to cater to my need to work on the plane. It mystifies me, frankly, but who can argue with the statisticians? :-?

I have faith in the free market system on this one. Somebody is going to have the corporate cojones to put out a product that caters to pax that are willing to pay a few percent more (not 1000% more for the front cabin) for a comfortable seat and decent service (including pillows) and when the market shifts to them you will see all the others moving toward the light. My betting on who will be the first to do so in squarely on Southwest. Build the routes and loyalty, let the legacies self-destruct trying to make themselves over into LCCs, let the Euros break the bank on cruiseliners that can land at a dozen airports total, eat their lunch on short- and mid-haul workers' expresses with legroom and in-flight internet and decent coffee. Worth $50 to you?

&lt;&gt;soccr,

I never said that one group supports the other. It doesn't. What I said is that if everybody was paying the same fare for the same exact service the $500 fares to Europe would be history. If that's what you want then I can't argue with you. The question is this. Do you really want that?

BTW, I'm NOT a high fare paying flyer. I'm just like the rest of the crowd here, always looking for bargains, but the difference is that I fly a great deal of miles a year and the airline wants to thank me for the busiess. Isn't that a normal business practice?

Gardyloo, you said you &quot;have faith in the free market system on this one&quot;. Oh, if only the airlines had the liberty of the free market system for labor when they do their hiring. But instead their hands are tied by
wages held artificially high by labor unions that seem to have much more power than they should. Imagine if there was a true free market for airlines to hire their employees, the airlines might actually be able to afford to give that great service at low prices.

You probably ought to check facts some - union wages are becoming less an issue in the light of bankruptcy-threatened renegotiations, givebacks, etc. More crucial nowadays is fuel price hedging and fleet rationalization. Oh, and those pricey pillows people keep sneezing into.

Don't the majority of elite status flyers and routine business flyers achieve that perk through actual business travel? Businesses that sell to others.

The cost of those flights isn't recouped through the cost of products and services to people like myself, I wouldn't think. Otherwise I wouldn't feel all that appreciative of getting to share that flight after all - as I'd already being paying for my ticket and theirs.

I think we're finally getting to the main argument <b>against</b> me. I am not an economist or a business person, but I do think I have a fairly good understanding of how the economy works.

- Business people paying full-fares are subsidizing the casual flyers who pay discount fares.
- The fares are paid by the company.
- That cost is passed onto all customers of theirs. [Or as reduced profits, or increased losses.]
- Since business travel occurs at many many companies that all of us are customers in a way - for example, Microsoft, GE, ExxonMobil, etc - that cost eventually is passed onto all of us.
- Therefore, if you don't buy discount ticket and fly, you're subsidizing those who do. In other words, those of us who fly discount fares (including myself, AAFF, and others) are actually leeches of the world economy and should be condemned. ;)
- Or you can say that this kind of fare structure is inherently unfair, and is unhealthy to civilization.

So, there you go. I'm arguing against myself now. :D

The idea that tourist class somehow bears the bulk of the cost of operating a plane is an oft-repeated delusion.

First, I believe all US airlines now have discontinued the practice of giving first class seats for miles on domestic flights. To get a first class seat, you have to pay, with cash, or a combination of cash and miles.

Lets take a look at some actual figures. I went to Continental.com and asked for prices on a flight from Newark to Paris in mid april of this year. Heavily restricted economy tickets were offered at $496; the unrestricted front cabin fare was $9090. A typical plane is the 777-200, which has 48 front cabin seats and 235 economy seats. If all seats were sold at the prices given, they would take in $116,000 from tourist class, and $436,000 from those in front seats.

I appreciate that some of the front cabin seats are sold for less, or even given to employees, but there are also discounted seats and deadheaders in tourist class, so the effects should not have that great an impact on the disparity in results.

I don't expect champaign at beer prices, and I know there is a higher ratio of FAs to passengers in the front cabin, but despite the less than ideal working conditions in tourist class, I have never felt poorly treated. I get the same treatment as anyone at the gate and the ticketing line (We are elites, but we got the same treatment before being exalted). I get what I paid for, and I get where we're going almost as quickly, and as I pass through the front cabin on exiting the plane, I look around and feel sort of glad I didn't have to share a cabin with those pigs who made such a mess.

I think you meant <b>international</b> not domestic, and I believe you are talking about <b>upgrades for miles</b>, not award tickets which are available for miles only without co-payments. :-)

AAFrequentflyer, you are, of course, correct, and I thank you for reining in my rant.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it's far more complicated than the coach cabin seats selling for $XXX and the front cabin selling for $X,XXX. I'm taking a flight to Paris later in the month. While there are essentially only two classes of seats, there are three fare classes up front and nine in coach. The point is that the 235 coach seats in the example cited will absolutely NOT sell at anything resembling the same price to each other and neither will the seats in the front cabin. The general thought that business travelers pay a larger share of the costs is true, but some of those people are in expensive coach seats. I flew to London last week for $358 rountrip. To get the same tickets a week and a half before the flight was several times more.