Delta 767 from Atlanta to Madrid, Do recliner seats stink?
 

Hi there, I was wondering if anyone has flown on Delta's 757-200 or 767 to Europe in business class? I have flown biz class on Continental, Air France and Northwest, all had lie flat seats. I see that Delta currently only has recliner seats (they get flat seats on some planes next year). Can someone tell me their experiences with this aircraft and how you thought the recliner seat was vs. the lie flat seat? My husband doesn't like the lie flat seats for sleeping anyway, but I usually find that the planes that have them are much nicer and more spacious inside. Any thoughts?

I prefer the Northwest and Air France seats to Delta, but the Delta seat is pretty decent. Pretty comparable to the CO seats on the 767 and the 757 (haven't flown the CO 777 in J).

Aside from the recliner issue, some don't like the width, which is only 18.5". I am decent-sized and it didn't bother me, but you notice at first. Otherwise, I don't think the cabin feels any less spacious than the widebodies on Northwest and Air France. It beats a CO 757. The seat pitch is 60", which is competitive and feels much less restricting than the 55" on CO.

Beyond the cabin, the rest of the product is pretty good. I would say DL has (much) better food than any of the others you mentioned. The pillows and blankets are really nice as well. The wines are comparable and the booze selection is significantly better than the others. Service is friendly and quite good (AF is the worst on this point).

Thanks for the info! I've been reading that Delta has the best business class product, at least they were voted so recently, which is surprising to me considering the antiquated seats. I must say that AF's new seats are quite posh but the food was nothing short of disgusting, save the wine and cheese. Continental's food on the 777 is magnificent. So I guess I'd rather get a decent meal than try to sleep on an angled bed where you keep sliding down! I just wish the seats didn't look so old, even on Delta's website the seats look like dinasours and that's their own marketing photo! Thanks for the info again!

Flat bed seats are only on Delta's 777LR (think Shanghai,Mumbai,etc.) for right now but things are supposed to be changing on other equipment in the next year.

<i>I must say that AF's new seats are quite posh but the food was nothing short of disgusting, save the wine and cheese.</i>

My sentiments, exactly. I was decidedly underwhelmed by the food on AF. But the seat is a really nice seat and might be the best lie-flat (not flat-bed) seat I have been in.

Just want to say that Continental doesn't have lie-flat seats on any of their planes right now. What you sat on Continental is a cradle/recliner seat.

Rkkwan: Actually that's incorrect, Continental definitely has lie-flat seats, I flown CO 5 times in lie-flat seats.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding the terminology?

&quot;Lie Flat&quot; seats are not the flat bed seats in international first class. They are 170-180 degree recline. Recliner seats still have a bend in the leg and do not lie flat. Continental definitely does not have recliners on the 777-300ER, they are lie-flat seats.

Here is CO's 777-200, note the description at the top, &quot;lie flat seats&quot;

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Con...ng_777-200.php

Definitions of the different seats:

Recliner Seats: These seats do not offer the significant recline of the Lie-flat and Flat Bed Seats, but still offer excellent space and comfort.

Lie-Flat Seats: While airlines often market these seats as having 180 degrees of recline, in their fully reclined position they are slightly angled and do not lay completely horizontal. Passengers often find these seats to be extremely comfortable for relaxing and working, but not conducive to sleep when in the fully reclined position because of the awkward angle.

Flat Bed Seats: When fully reclined, these seats are completely horizontal, creating a bed that is fully flat. These seats always receive high accolades for being comfortable both as seats and beds.

Suites: These seats offer the utmost in privacy and comfort. Each suite is essentially its own mini-cabin which includes a fully-flat bed, work station and television.

http://www.seatguru.com/charts/business_class.php

Sorry that link didn't work here's CO's map http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Con...ng_777-200.php

I fly CO all the time. The 777 seats on CO is <b>not</b> lie-flat. Let me repeat, <b>NOT</b> lie-flat, despite what CO's marketing team want you to believe. Yes, I've flown in it, and my mom flies in it all the time.

Lie-flat has to be <b>flat</b>. CO's 777 seat come close, but it is not flat.

You are incorrect. This is not Continental's marketing this is the airline industry's definition.

You do not know the proper terminology. You are confusing totally flat first class seats with flat/angled business class seats.

Here is the INDUSTRY DEFINITION:

LIE FLAT SEATS: While airlines often market these seats as having 180 degrees of recline, in their fully reclined position they are slightly angled and do not lay completely horizontal. Passengers often find these seats to be extremely comfortable for relaxing and working, but not conducive to sleep when in the fully reclined position because of the awkward angle.

FLAT BED SEATS: When fully reclined, these seats are completely horizontal, creating a bed that is fully flat. These seats always receive high accolades for being comfortable both as seats and beds.

If you click on this link and scroll down to continental you will see that they have angled lie flat seats.

http://www.flatseats.com/Reviews/A-Z-Business.htm

BTW, there are plenty of errors on seatguru. One cannot just accept everything there.

In fact, Continental itself call its seats &quot;near flat 170-degree&quot;:

http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...first/777.aspx

But anyways, if that's &quot;flat enough&quot; for you, that's fine. But that seat does not fit the definition of &quot;lie-flat&quot;.

You can believe what you believe. But I am correct, and you are not. You can also check how many posts I have about Continental I have posted on this forum.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, which is about DL.

BTW, I am totally clear about the terminology. And so do you.

But do you don't know about Continental's seat. That's the question. Not about terminology.

So you are saying that the link I posted, the 3 links I posted above are lies? Misinformation?

Perhaps it's the case that it's YOUR interpretation of how the seat feels to YOU. It's clearly in black and white print on a variety of websites that these are angled lie flat seats. This sounds like your own subjective opinion of the seats.

Your point has been noted. Now hopefully there is someone else who can contribute some real information to the thread regarding the seats on Delta's 767 in business class.

Any website that says CO's 777 have &quot;lie-flat&quot; seats are incorrect. Period.

<b>YOU<b> quote it yourself. It has to be 180-degrees.

Did <b>YOU</b> look at Continental's picture and description of that seat?

How can &quot;near-flat 170 degrees&quot; equal 180-degree?

170 = 180??? Huh?

Give me a freaking break.</b></b>

Lie flat seats range from 150-180 degrees. There are a variety of lie flat seats.

Please take special notice Rkkwan:

<b> I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR &quot;OPINION&quot; ESPECIALLY SINCE IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY QUESTION. IN ADDITION TO HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ORIGINAL QUESTION, YOUR INFORMATION IS PARTIAL, FLAWED AND NARROW THEREFORE IT IS NOT USEFUL TO ME. YOU ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING ANYTHING POSITIVE TO THE SPIRIT OF THIS FORUM BUT RATHER YOU ONLY CONTRIBUTE HOSTILITY AND NEGATIVITY.</b>

Additionally, if you are so sorry that you hi-jacked my thread then <b>GET OFF OF IT</b> and let others have a chance to contribute.

Others can read this thread and decide who's being negative here and/or who started the negativity.

I highly invite anybody to click on my screen name or search my screen name &quot;rkkwan&quot; and see what I've contributed to this forum over the years.

But before I finish with this thread, I do want to explain to others why I post in this thread in the first place. It's because some others may read your post and assume CO have a 180-degree lie-flat seat when they decide on flying them. And that's a seat they will not find on CO right now.

It's a public forum. While of course the main purpose of this thread is to learn about DL's seat, when I see some wrong or misleading information posted here, I cannot not comment on it.

So, yes I hijack your thread. I posted a short 2-line comment. But you are the one who posted all the definition.

But I promise, if you start a new thread to ask about DL and if you don't mention CO's BF seat, I will not talk about that there. :p

&quot;Others can read this thread and decide who's being negative here and/or who started the negativity.&quot;

Yes, thankfully this is true.

GiuliaPiraino,
I have been following fodorite threads for some time now and I post occasionally.
Airline site is one of the sites I follow most closely.
While it may be true that rkkwan did not address your original Delta question, he did address the issue raised in the thread - that of &quot;lie flat seats on Continental&quot;.
rkkwan, in my opinion, is one of the most knowledgeable and impartial posters on this site.
He is particularly familiar with Continental. I highly regard his opinion and value his advice.
I only know him from his posts.
Your personal attack against him was unwarranted - this is just my personal opinion (on a public forum)

There is some semantic confusion over &quot;flat&quot; and &quot;horizontal.&quot;

rkkwan is correct about the CO seats.

The distraction is unfortunate, and rkkwan has provided a good deal of information to this forum.

In this instance, however, GiuliaPiraino has a valid point about the expression &quot;lie-flat&quot; as it applies to business-class seats. In current terminology, lie-flat does <b>not</b> horizontal. Lie-flat does mean that the seat extends so that there are no bends in the seat. Many lie-flat seats are at an angle, such as Continental's, and some are in fact horizontal (such as United's new seats).

While the distinction can be seen as one of terminology, it's extremely useful to know the difference if sleeping on a horizontal surface is important to you. American, for example, recently introduced their new seats and the describe them as &quot;lie-flat&quot; -- but you'll be very disappointed if you expect those seats to be like the horizontal business class seats on BA, VS, SA, et al.

rizzuto - We are not debating the terminologies between &quot;lie-flat&quot; and &quot;flat bed&quot;. There is no disagreement. We all agree that CO's seat is not horizontal to the floor.

The issue is that the seating/sleeping surface of CO's seat is not a flat surface. To me, to everybody on Flyertalk, and to Continental itself; the sleeping surface resembles a recliner/Lay-Z-Boy. You can see in the picture that I link to, on Continental's own website. Again, this is the link:

http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...first/777.aspx

As you can see, there is an angle between the piece of cushion where your back lies and where your thighs rest. That's your 170-degrees. And then, the cushion where your lower legs rest angles further downward. So, three different pieces - three angles. Classic definition of a recliner.

Compare that to AA's, which can be seen in this flash page:

http://www.theflagshipexperience.com...page.html?en_2

Click on &quot;Sleep&quot;, and you'll see what a &quot;lie-flat&quot; seat looks like at full sleep. It's a flat surface. No bumps, no different angles among the pieces.

The difference between the two is very apparent.

Continental itself knows its seats are not lie-flat. Or else, it won't call it &quot;near-flat 170 degrees&quot;.

While I use seatguru.com all the time and find it in general a very useful tool, they are wrong to call CO's seat lie-flat, even if they put add the qualifier &quot;with 170-degree recline&quot;. To most of the CO flyers, the comfort level between CO's 767's 156-degree and 777's 170-degree recline isn't that much. If 170 is &quot;lie-flat&quot;, then maybe 156 should be &quot;lie-flat&quot; too? But seatguru calls CO's 767 a &quot;standard seat with legrest&quot;.

I see, rkkwan -- you are absolutely correct.

As I said before, I always listen to rkkwan - he knows his stuff.
It begs the question why couldn't Continental get those seats that are &quot;almost&quot; lie-flat to be really flat. They take up just as much space as the true lie-flat. Why couldn't they adjust a couple inches more at each joint to be flat? Same with AA lie-flat seat fiasco. They are flat – but why couldn't the mechanism raised them to a true horizontal level? It wouldn't take up any more room.
Just plain dumb IMO for both seat designs

Paulchili - When CO introduced the current 777 BF seats, they were one of the best business class seats in the industry. Even now, they're one of the widest you'll find. &quot;Lie-flat&quot; wasn't in the vocab. It's just that times have past.

Changing anything on an aircraft isn't that easy, and it's not just changing the cushions. The seat manufacturer has to get involved, and probably have to get the seat design certified. CO's seats are still fairly competitive, which is probably why they decide not to go through all that trouble.

Anyways, CO have already announced their new flat bed BF seats. They were supposed to start appear in late 2009. But with their next two 777-200 and 787 deliveries from Boeing pushed into 2010, I think it'll be 2010 before we'll see those seats.

rkkwan,
I suppose I can see that one more easily as they are older seats.
But AA? They are quite new, developed in the age of &quot;lie-flat&quot; seats, they are in a shell - all they have to do is go a couple inches higher on the foot end. Not exactly rocket science.
To OP- sorry for this &quot;Off the topic&quot; rant.

Paulchili - It is not that simple to put flat-bed seats without taking up significantly more room. Airlines try many ways to do flat-bed in business class to minimize the space taken - including backward facing (BA, the new UA), herringbone (VS, CX, AC, etc). But even those still take more room than the recliner or lie-flat.

Lie-flats are efficient because one's foot is underneath the head of the person in front. You cannot just change the angle, like you suggested.

The only type of flatbeds that an airline can keep the density are the ones DL will put on its 767s, and CO will put on its 757 and 777s in the future. DL has a staggered configuration, and CO's will be slightly angled towards the windows. But both use the same idea that one's foot will be underneath the elbow rest (or a shelf) between the seats in front. These designs take a while to get realized, and AA decided not to wait for them.

Rkkwan-you definitely could win &quot;airlines for $500,Alex!&quot;

I see what you mean.
I assumed that because they are inside a &quot;shell&quot; they would be independent of the seat in front of them. I guess the foot part still slides under the shell of the seat in front of it.
I will fly in J LAX-LHR on AA in January so I will see it first hand (the next segment is J on BA LHR-JNB - that will be a treat).
Thanks for the patience in explaning it.

Here's a picture of AA's 763 with their new lie-flat shell seats:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ameri...-ER/1293469/L/

You can see the cutout where you feet will rest. That's how you can have a seat pitch of 58&quot;-60&quot;, which is just 5 feet or slightly less.

Perhaps the airlines should consider seating like this:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air...ng_777-200.php

or like this:
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Cat..._777-300ER.php

But I guess they want everyone in straight rows so they can make sure their not trying to drink their own alcohol.

<i>Perhaps the airlines should consider seating like this:</i>

Several carriers have opted for that style. Delta has it on their 777LRs and will roll them out across the 777 fleet. Virgin also has the same seat, as does Air Canada.

This is a common design, but it results in far more capacity loss than the angled lie-flat seats, the new designs like CO, or the front-back design BA has. To that end, I would think it will remain restricted to higher-yield destinations.

Besides, you should read some of the whining about these seats on FT and elsewhere - &quot;It stinks when traveling in pairs&quot;, I miss my window, yadda yadda yadda&quot;. No seat is perfect and they will all have their compromises.

Hey....You are rocketing through space at nearly 600 MPH, sitting or reclining (lie flat/lie angled) in a chair...Get over it.

<i>Hey....You are rocketing through space at nearly 600 MPH, sitting or reclining (lie flat/lie angled) in a chair...Get over it.</i>

I am willing to put up with a lot of indignation when flying coach, because I think the price is fair for the transportation. The price for biz is so high, whether paid with cash or miles, that I think it is only reasonable to pay strict attention to the details. When you are paying the kind of money it takes to sit up front, then I understand the concern about the amenities.

I am with you on that one all the way travelgourmet.

The herringbone definitely takes up more room than lie-flats or recliners. For example, DL's 777-200LR has 43 herringbone flat-beds and 233 coach seats.

Similarly, Air Canada's 42/228. That's 24 seats in the section between Door 1 and Door 2. Air NewZealand put 26 of them in the same space.

In contrast, Continental's 772ER sits 50/235 with 32 business class seats in the front cabin between Doors 1 and 2.

That herringbone seating takes at least 15% more room, so the airline has fewer seats they can sell, and need to charge a premium.

For me, the horizontale seat in herringbone layout is a great option. I recently flew NRT-YYZ on AC, and I found it significanlt easier to get into a comfortable sleeping position than on any of the angled lie-flats I've flown (LH, TG, LX, NH, SQ Spacebed). And I'd take any of the angled lie-flats over the recliners (old UA, LX on 330s), in a heartbeat.

<i> &quot;The price for biz is so high, whether paid with cash or miles, that I think it is only reasonable to pay strict attention to the details. When you are paying the kind of money it takes to sit up front, then I understand the concern about the amenities.&quot;</i>

I agree, it's obnoxious that these tickets cost $200,000, well that's the amount we had to spend on our credit card to get them. So I'm not willing to have a dumpy old Delta recliner when I can have an angled lie flat, especially on an 11 hour flight. Heck I was inconsolable when I saw Air France's pathetic toiletry kit, CO definitely has them beat there. Bottom line is, yes, it's a lot of research and bother, but it's also a lot of money and a lot hours in the air. To me it's worth it to try to get the best seat for the miles I'm using and the dollars I've already spent.