is south africa safe?
 

I have been ready to book a trip to south africa acatually was going to book the airfare monday and do separate private or group tours since i couldnt find the right package but now 2 people ,friends have told me they consider south africa very dangerous and tourists and people who live there are held up by gunpoint in cape town,johanasburg etc..just calling a taxi so i am afraid now to take my son . both of therse people have traveled to south africa in the past year. what do you think? anita

I think your two friends are nuts for telling you that.
Crime is everywhere, including South Africa but look at the numbers: in 2006 there were 358,096 visitors from America, 307,003 visitors from Asia and 1,381,881 visitors from Europe. (source: satourism.net)
How many crimes against tourists have you heard about? It does happen but read the forums of all the people who have come back without being held by gunpoint for calling a taxi, mugged, robbed or anything else. Yes, crimes do occur but if you take precautions you'll be fine, but that would apply to any large city in any country in the world.
Take your son and have a great time, South Africa is a beautiful country.

I think any city is as safe as you want to make it...but when every business, home, hotel, gas station, car dealership, florist, mall has a fence around it, topped off with barb wire I think you can come to two conclusion. There is either one helluva a fence salesman in Joburg or it is not the safest city in the world.

But Joburg is a small part of South Africa. I would consider South Africa very safe.

I realize you're only trying to gather information to make an informed decision, but no one on this board has the ability to predict if you'll be safe or not in South Africa. Or London. Or China. Or Disneyland. Those who have gone to SA and come back in one piece will tell you it's perfectly safe. Those who have had problems or know of others who've had problems will tell you you should fear for your life.

All I know is every time I've gone on a trip that wasn't to Europe there's always been at least one person telling me how dangerous X place was and how very brave I was. I've come back alive and happy each time. As have millions of visitors to South Africa.

While I know what response this will bring, I have to point out that South Africa is not like every other country in the world in regards to crime. Danny Jordaan, CEO of the 2010 World Cup recently discussed the crime issue and used the following 2006 statistics from Interpol for Murder rate/100,000 population:
Japan: 1.05
Great Britian: 1.65
Canada: 4
USA 5.61
South Africa: 40.5

Here are three recent articles discussing crime:


http://www.news24.com/News24/South_A...210747,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_A...3702%2C00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/...191648,00.html


In spite of this, I still recommend visiting SA to friends and family, but warn them to be cautious and to be very, very cautious in Jo'Burg. I have no doubt that you will have a fine vacation and be happy you went.

PS. Sorry if this is an edited copy of a previous post. I tried to post an early version and it looked like it was sent but doesn't seem to have been received.

Yes, South Africa has a high crime rate, particularly in the cities. But if you take the normal precautions and don't put yourself in stupid situations, then your chances of being a crime victim are substantially lowered. Furthermore, unlike other parts of the world, American tourists are not generally targeted for kidnappings.

I just went in August with my family and I didn't feel uncomfortable at any point. Our TA arranged for transportation to/from the airport/hotels. They were great, parking the car, walking us into the terminal, and guiding us to the proper line(s).

In Cape Town, we hired Selwyn to tour us around the Cape and the winelands and took advantage of the hotel's drivers to take us to/from dinner each night. Based on Selwyn's advice, we only used the ATMs in the V&A Waterfront and only during the day.

In Jo'burg, we hired a driver for the day. When we needed an ATM, he parked the car and escorted us into the bank.

Finally, we don't dress like tourists, and I carry my DSLR in a large, cheap purse that zipped up instead of a camera bag that screamed "expensive camera."

As long as you are alert to your surroundings and smart about where you go and how you get there, it's unlikely you'll experience any crime.

My husband and I visit South Africa about every 2 to 3 years. We rent cars, drive (all by ourselves) to wherever we want to go, and generally behave the way we do in Chicago or London or Paris.

SA has a very high crime rate, but very little crime is directed against tourists. I read news from SA regularly, and I think that in the last 20 years, I have heard of three incidences of life-threatening crimes against tourists, and one of those was against a tourist in Durban who refused to obey police advice to leave the area where a riot was taking place. Most life-threatening crime in SA is among criminals who are fighting over criminal stuff like drug-selling territory or control of certain kinds of businesses.

There's a high rate of burglary of homes. This doesn't affect tourists, obviously. There's a high rate of car high-jacking, but the cars most wanted by the car-jackers are luxury cars, Beamers and Mercedes.

You might get pick-pocketed, you might get mugged, but it's unlikely that you'll be held up at gunpoint.

I would love to correct my typo of hi-jacking!

p.s. Where in SA did those two friends of yours go, and what crimes were committed against them?

We just got back from a trip to Namibia and South Africa. We had made arrangements with our B & B host to pick us up at Jo'burg airport. We would not have gotten into just any cab.

We rented a car at the Cape Town airport and drove for a week. We always kept the doors locked and the windows up per our travel agent's suggestion. We didn't have any problems in the winelands or our two days on the Garden route.

Looking back, we should have returned the rental car on our way back to Cape Town. It's not that it's so dangerous during the day, but we kept getting lost and there are lots of hills. We did take cabs at night and our B & B host there said it wasn't safe to walk at night. They have a hop-on, hop-off bus that I wish we had used. If you book both the red and blue routes, you can use the ticket for two days.

We were at the V & A waterfront on a Sunday, very crowded, but we felt safe.

A good travel agent should place you in a safe area and you can book tours and not have to drive.

SA is a beautiful country. I moved here in April from California and in terms of a place to visit there is nowhere like it. That said it is an extremely dangerous country. Before moving here I visited on a number of occassions and generally found that with some precautions it was ok for a visitor. To live here is another matter. I recently moved to a so-called "security complex" in a good suburb of Pretoria which I felt would be a safer place to live with my family than Jhb. Two nights after we moved in, somebody came in whilst we were asleep and took numerous electronics items from downstairs. My concern is that if they had come upstairs to where my two daughters and wife were asleep who know what happens. The incidents of rape is very high here because many of the new South Africans feel that raping a virgin is a cure for AIDS. the problem is that the government through its reverse racism and complete failure to stand up to crime is encouraging this kind of thought and action. And because the majority of the people here are like sheep, the ANC will always be in power and SA will continue to deteriorate from what it used to be-a first world country in Africa to a third world crime ridden hellhole. Not much of a future here unfortunately.

And the latest in the news is that an american exchange student was raped at the University of Natal in Durban today.

Laguna, with America being such an enlightened and forward thinking country with no racism or crime, I am amazed that you would lower yourself to live in South Africa. Personally I feel safe here every day of my life. I have never (touch wood) been mugged, robbed or tampered with. South Africa is going places and the ANC is doing a fine job of taking our budding democracy to new heights.

There is crime in South Africa, yes,just as there are honest friendly people with a positive outlook on life.

Safety wise you shouldn’t walk alone at night, look too much like a tourist and just be sensible. Like you would when you travel anywhere.

Laguna, please accept my sympathy about the invasion of your home. That happened to me, quite a long time ago, and I know how much it shakes you. It took a couple of years before I was able to completely lose my feeling of insecurity.

Poppins, Ditto bigtime to all that you have said.

Tuckeg, I think that time has come that you dont just quote statistics but rather analyse them too. For instance at a guess I would say that 40 of the 40.5 murders/100,000 that you quote do not take place in any area even remotely close to where you will find foreigners or tourists. Furthermore a HUGE % of these murders are gang related and are within gangs and do not involve the outside public. You get stats and other stats however just mouthing these stats means absolutely nothing when it comes to harsh practicalities.

Laguna if it so bad in SA why are you still here? By the way I have lived here for not par but for my whole life and I disagree with you totally about the statement "To live here is another matter"

Anita19, If you visit SA you will, just like 99% of all tourists who come to this country, enjoy a wonderful crime free experience. Yes you could land up in the 1% category of problem however please tell me in which country of the world this 1% does not exist in. Its a norm and SA is no different. So if you take the normal precautions visit us and you will have a vacation that you will never forget. If you dont believe me just read the comments of those who have visited SA on this board.

Hope that you visit us and that you have a wonderful time doing so.

Very proudly part of the wonderful ((r)) nation of South Africa

Alright Selwyn, I promise never to muddle up any discussions about crime in South Africa by posting any statistics by anyone, including respected international organizations. It is clear facts have no place in the discussion and from now I will just post anecdotes like "I have visited South Africa and have never been robbed" or "Crime is everywhere" or "I didn't feel unsafe in South Africa but did in Los Angeles". Hope that meets with your approval. Perhaps someday, when South African crime rates compare favorably to the rest of the world, statistics will again be allowed. Please copy Danny Jordaan with your memo (I don't think he is a regular Fordor's reader) so he won't make any more public statements about South African crime statistics and its effect on tourism and the 2010 World Cup..

Tuckeg,

I dont regard Danbny Jordaan as a person to whom one should listen to when it comes to crime or crime stats. Seeing that you are so keen to want to quote him or for that matter have me let him know my thoughts please go to

http://www.proudlysa.co.za/level2/media.asp? include=../docs/news/2007/august/20070822_007.html

where you can see what the man you are quoting is really saying.

Seems as if somebody has certainly got their stats in a twist! :) I say again one gets stats and stats and simply regurgitating numbers in a selective manner with no interpretation is the worst way to discuss any statistic. (or for that matter news report)

In a nutshell Anita19 Danny Jordaan is saying "Please come to SA and as a visitor you will be as safe as can be". I would strongly agree with this but I dont need Danny Jordaan or a batch of numbers to tell me these facts as I have lived in SA for my whole life and know that the above is correct anyway.

Very proudly part of the wonderful ((r)) nation of South Africa

Poppins,
I am not in fact American but lived there for 8 years before marrying a South African and moving here. I have not said that I don't like SA. I do like it and in many respects prefer it to the US in terms of people and scenery. That said there are issues here which are huge and which will not go away. To claim that the ANC is "doing a fine job" is unbelievable when you have the highest crime rate in the world, the highest AIDS rate and thousands leaving the country every year for a new life overseas. Ie a skills shortage which will be long-term a catastrphe for SA. How you can claim you feel safe here and need to act "just like anywhere in the world" shows unbelievable ignorance.

hi, anita,

what you need to know is that as a tourist you will be safe. i can only say that we visited with our kids for 12 days in July and we felt as safe as houses, despite the attempts of many South africans to tell us otherwise! nor did we meet any other tourists who had had any problems at all.

we got in taxis, walked around cape town, hired a car, and even broke down and had to mend a flat tyre, all without incident.

it's a wonderful place and you should have a ball.

regards, ann

In my opinion, SA is safe for tourists. Yes - take precautions, but don't confuse headlines or statistics with actual danger to you on a 2 week holiday.

The advice from the UK government (the Foreign Office is not renowned for its devil-may-care attitude) is that millions of visitors safely go to South Africa every year. There is violence, but mostly restricted to non-tourist areas, and most request for help concern lost documents.
www.fco.gov.uk

Selwyn,

I can't get your link to work and don't have time to play around to see what's wrong with it so I have no idea what your talking about. As for statistics and interpreting them, let's look at you comments:

"I think that time has come that you dont just quote statistics but rather analyse them too. For instance at a guess I would say that 40 of the 40.5 murders/100,000 that you quote do not take place in any area even remotely close to where you will find foreigners or tourists."

If that is true, it should be easy to find data to support your "guess" (funny how your idea of analyzing data is to guess), where is it? What kind of areas are these? You take tourists into townships, so it can't be there. You have told Fodorites it is safe to travel anywhere in Cape Town (at night no less) so it can't be there. It can't be out in the bush because tourists go there. Where is this killing zone? My "guess" is that is not the case. My South African friend was murdered in front of a group of tourists at his tourist lodge.

"Furthermore a HUGE % of these murders are gang related and are within gangs and do not involve the outside public."

Don't you think the same is true for the other countries mentioned? Do you think all the crimes in Japan are directed at tourists? If the crimes against tourists are the same percentage of crime in each country, then the country with the highest crime rate (South Africa) will still have the most tourists related crimes.

If you have any statistics related to tourist related crime in South Africa, post them. If not, anyone who listens to your "it's just as safe as anywhere else in the world" mantra does so at their own risk.

I repeat what I said, I recommend South Africa as a tourist destination, but crime is a serious issue there and special precautions should be taken, especially in Jo'Burg. Unless the situtation is turned around soon, I fear in the not to distant future we will be reading posts describing some very unfortunate events involving tourists.

Tuckeg

Im a 33 year old south african born in Johannesburg and stays in Pretoria for the past 30 years.

South Africa is just as safe as anywhere in the world that has crime of some sort. Yes we have a lot of burglaries and the murder statistics arent that great but 99.9%of the murders in this country is gang related and tourists are not affected. This should not scare people in to not visiting this wonderful country.

We have the most beautiful oceans and coastlines in the world. Our marine life is diverse and you can swim with a great white shark or even tickle a crocodile's tummy if you wish.

Our wildlife is diverse and you can see the big 5 anywhere in the country. The people are amazing no matter where you go you will be greeted with a smile and people will help where ever they can.

Some tips to stay crime free and safe in sa.

1. Dont look like a tourist - if possible avoid cameras around your neck try to blend in.

2. Dont carry large amounts of cash on your person and if you have to dont flash your money in public - this can make you a target easily. Rather carry a small amount of cash in a wallet that you can take out without looking obvious.

3. When driving lock all your doors and dont let valueble items lie around in your car- lock everything in the trunk. If you are lost go to the nearest gas station there is usually a map of the area and the staff are always keen to help with directions. You might encounter street vendors at some intersections just keep your windows closed and dont make eye contact with them they will soon move on but they can be very persistant.

4.Dont visit townships like Soweto on your own rather go with an organised tour group.

5. Before going out at night ask the hotel or guesthouse if it is safe to do so and where they recommend you go. In Gauteng there are shuttle services available to the entertainment complexes at Carnival city, Emperors palace Sun City and Gold Reef city -ask at your hotel they can arrange safe transport for you.

6. Never give money to street children or beggars. Unfortuanatly they have mastered the art of looking hungry and you instantly feel sorry for them. There are shelters and homes available for these children in all the major cities but they choose not to go there because of drug abuse so you will only be aiding their drug habit.

7. Avoid atms during night times and use atms in shopping centres or at banks - try and avoid atms that have lots of people loitering around and if anyone should jump in front of you offering help just firmly say no thank you take your card and walk away this is a big scam in sa. They offer to help but obtain your pin and swop your card with out you noticing it. South Africa is big on credit cards and debit cards and all the big names are accepted here so dont worry to much about atms.

8. Leave your valuble jewelry at home. If you are wearing lots of gold chains and rings it is asumed that you are rich and it might make you a target - we have loads of diamonds and gold here rather come and buy some.. :)

9. Our public transport is not tourist friendly at all. If you are not sure go to any travel agent or ask at your hotel and they will suggest a trustworthy taxi service or shuttle. NEVER get into a minbus taxi. This is not a safe matter or transportion. You might get misunderstood and you will be dropped of at a destination 600kms from where you wanted to be.

10. Jhb is not a bad place but certain areas in jhb should be avoided. Never under any circumstances go or venture near Hillbrow. This is the crime, rape, drug, murder hot spot of Gauteng. JHB is a very big city and you will be safe in most areas.

11. Plan and get a good guide to accompany you through our country. We have so much to offer and by getting a guide you will not miss out on any or the treats this country has to offer you.

Im just writing this as info you all probably know things like this. Come and enjoy this great country of mine im proudly South African.

Seems to be some conflicting advice here. On one hand we are told that tourists are not targeted and are very safe and then that tourists should make an effort not to look like tourists. If tourists are really safer than normal South Africans, then normal South Africans should dress like tourists.

I think it is pretty sensible to try to not stand out of the crowd wherever one is.

Well said Tuckeg

I spent 27 years in South Africa and have to agree with Tuckeg and laguna.I honestly think Selwyn is delusional about the crime situation in South Africa but then again his business depends on his''positve'' outlook.

I have worked in townships for more than five years and have seen more violent crimes than most.On any given night there would be at least 5 rape victims,6 gunshot wounds and at least 6 penetrating chest injuries.This is of course much different than the paradise township Selwyn visits.On my first night as an intern I inserted 7 intercostal drains for stabbed chest injuries.I suppose this exactly matches the record of any Canadian intern on their first night.-seeing that South Africa is no different than anywhere else.

South Africa is a mess and if the South Africans keep denying it they are no better than Zimbabwe.

I am selling my house there and will be moving my mom over to Canada to live her last years in a country that values human life.

I really enjoyed Martiee's comment about JHB.Don't go to Hillbrow! as this is the rape and murder capital of JHB,BUT what she forgot to tell you is that Hillbrow and oh! so safe Sandton is what?...a ten minute drive apart?????.I suppose the criminals do not cross these imaginary borders?????

My only remaining wish is that I can also bring our beloved domestic worker and her family to Canada.

Selwyn,I expect to be called racist again,as this has been your only pathetic defense in the past.

"3. When driving lock all your doors..."

The following was told to me by a Joburg guesthouse owner:

- Never hear loud music in your car or use your iPod - always be aware what is happening around the car.

- Never get your car in a situation where you can't drive away quickly, e.g. keep enough distance to other cars in traffic jams or in front of robots, and always keep the car in street direction when waiting in front of closed property entrances.

safarinut,

May I point out a huge error in your mail in that you are 100% incorrect in saying that I need to promote SA to maintain my business. I am most certainly not dependent on my business at all and do not need to maintain it. I have been formally retired for the past 13 years and have been tourguiding in SA for the past 10 years for fun as well as to try and help build my country. If my business had to close down tomorrow morning it would have absolutely no effect on me financially. Where it would have effect is on fellow South Africans (you know the sort of people who live in the paradise townships that I work in <sic> ) whom I help through my tourguiding and that truly would be a pity.

As far as I am concerned the rest of your mail does not warrant answering as I have answered all that you speak of in past Fodors threads already. Thus if you are so keen to find out more from me just use the Fodors search function to find your answers.

Very proudly part of the wonderful ((r))nation of South Africa

<<- Never hear loud music in your car or use your iPod - always be aware what is happening around the car.

- Never get your car in a situation where you can't drive away quickly, e.g. keep enough distance to other cars in traffic jams or in front of robots, and always keep the car in street direction when waiting in front of closed property entrances>>

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DO IN CANADA SEEING THAT SOUTH AFRICA IS NO DIFFERENT THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

Good for you Selwyn!!!

Let me see you now giving everything you earn through your ''fun'' business to your beloved township-because...you apparently don't need your ''business'' for financial reasons.You can still have alot of ''fun'' !!!???

Good night my friend and...remember to lock your doors and set your alarm.

Safarinut,

Quite right. Close on to 60% of my profits go to community projects in Kayamandi with particular emphasis on education. I earn more for the folk in the township than I do for my own self.

Sorry cant comply fully with your request in that I dont have an alarm and the only doors that I lock are my car door and home front door. I suppose you leave your doors open at night in Canada and if that is the case good for you. My suggestion is stay there and enjoy the pleasure.

Very proudly part of the wonderful ((r)) nation of South Africa

I'm bored with this.

it's obvious that SA has a higher crime rate than many other places, but equally obvious that the vast majority of tourists are unaffected by this.

I have locked my car doors driving through Brixton, [south london], and been "dipped" on the tube. did I stop going to London?

I managed to spend 12 days and nights in SA completely unscathed. Do i think that sa's crime rate is better than london's?

am i going to stop going to Italy or the US because an english student was recently murdered there and one of the suspects is american?

in New York, am i going to walk through central park at night?

let's all use some common sense.

regards, ann

Well said Ann.

Hope you come back to visit us one day.

Very proudly part of the wonderful ((r))nation of South Africa

I am staying and yes,you are right,I am enjoying every minute of it.

Why only 60%???-wont it be more ''fun'' to give 100%????

Good night and don't forget to lock your front door...and oh! your car.

I said the same thing as annhig in my first response to the OP. SA's crime statistics are high but that I still recommend tourists travel there and that the OP should go. Funny how Selwyn disagreed with me and agreed with annhig.

Ann,

RE central park at night is safe if you stick to the outer perimeter (6 mile loop). People run in the dark all the time.

Hari

Tuckeg,

I most certainly did not disagree with you regarding your suggestions re visitors travelling to SA. What I disagreed with is your blind usage and following of whatever stats you see. All you do is quote what others say and I take issue with this mechanism of helping others with advice. If you could not access the first link I sent you then go to http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...0502373C230866 where you will see that Danny Jordaan is saying the EXACT OPPOSITE to what you have quoted in this thread not that I believe that Danny Jordaan is an authority to follow anyway.

In the tourguide world we would label you "a regurgitator" in that it seems as if all that you ever do is quote other peoples stats or reports without any form of analysis or description. I most definitely disagree with this manner of distributing information and that is all that I disagreed with as far as you are concerned in this thread. My thoughts have not changed.

Hope this clears things up from my point of view.

Very proudly part of the wonderful ((r))nation of South Africa

Selwyn,

Your reading comprehension is very poor (of course I knew that from a previous thread where you embarassingly confused two posters even after many people tried to tell you you were wrong). I did not indicate Jordaan said anything about a danger to tourists. Here is what I said:

"Danny Jordaan, CEO of the 2010 World Cup recently discussed the crime issue and used the following 2006 statistics from Interpol for Murder rate/100,000 population:
Japan: 1.05
Great Britian: 1.65
Canada: 4
USA 5.61
South Africa: 40.5"

Now how does the article you quoted show "Danny Jordaan is saying the EXACT OPPOSITE" of what I said?

The latest murder rates clearly show (and you can't "analyze" your way out of this) that the posters before me who said crime in South Africa was like anywhere else in the world were incorrect. How can you say that a country that has a murder rate 8 to 40 times that of those countries where most tourists are coming doesn't have a crime problem? Do you think that nuclear power facilities in other countries are attacked by armed gangs of robbers:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200711140098.html

Since you choose to label me, I will label you, you are what we call an ostrich. I can imagine you on the Titanic telling all who would listen that those giving statistics on how much the water had risen were regurgitators and you had analysed the situtation and all was well.

I can imagine you on the Titanic telling all who would listen that those giving statistics on how much the water had risen were regurgitators and you had analysed the situtation and all was well.

The only thing that makes me regurgitate is some of your views on crime in South Africa.

Tuckeg

I live in Johannesburg and have been following this thread with some interest.
I do not wish to prescribe to anyone on whether or not they wish to visit South Africa (a beautiful and wonderful place).
However, for me (and regardless of the country involved) it always comes down to one simple question: Do you wish to holiday in a place where you are always distrustful of the people you meet and alert to becoming a victim of crime?
The above question should be read in connection to Johannesburg. I cannot speak for Cape Town (which some people say isn't really part of Africa -- Time magazine, Nov 19 2007) but when I am there I do feel safer and could happily live there. This might explain the correspondence from the gentleman in Cape Town.
Finally, you shouldn't read too much into the crime stats because a lot of the crime is committed in areas you will not be visiting (ie black townships).

Ostrich....,well maybe,but his thoughts on the crime situation makes me think about the fellow governing a country just north of South Africa-unable to admit that we have a serious problem.

Selwyn has a good heart and is doing alot to help build the new South Africa,but his inability to admit to the crime situation is just shocking.

Yes,go and visit South Africa,one of the most beautiful places on earth,most of you will return home safe-just know you are visiting one of the most dangerous and violent countries in the world.

Heres my two line final response to the ORIGINAL QUESTION of this thread because that is what this issue is supposed to be all about:

Anita19,

In answer to your question I believe that if you visit SA you will not find it to be dangerous nor will you have any problem with regard to crime thus making your visit to our shores a wonderful vacation in total safety for you and your son.

Hope that you do visit us and that you enjoy your stay in SA.

Very proudly part of the wonderful ((r))nation of South Africa

Anita - where will you be visiting? Will you spend your time in Jo'burg? If you will land there and almost immediately (read within 24 hours) head out on safari then all this ridiculous argument is completely beside the point. How much crime happens in the lodges?

Tuckeg and Selwyn, you guys need to drop it - this same argument comes up in every posting about SA.

Anita - safety is not guaranteed anywhere in the world - just take a look on the Europe forum where folks worry too. Just take the same reasonable precautions you would any time you travel and have a great trip.

Momliz,

You are quite correct in your advice to "drop it" and if you look at my last mail you will see that via the words "final response" I have done just that.

Thanks for the good suggestion. Appreciated.

Very proudly part of the wonderful ((r))nation of South Africa