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Which cities, which NY neighbourhoods?
In the last few years we gained much valuable info from Fodor fans for holidays in Italy and the UK, so for our big one - the USA - we're trying again.
My wife and I - both well over 60 - are travelling to the USA - for the first time - to follow the Presidential election '08, something I've always wanted to do. I know that is a long way off, but we want to take our time planning something special. We are coming about 1 Sept and leaving just after election day - about 9 weeks. Where to stay in New York? My wife has stated that a New York visit is to be not less than two weeks, giving us a good chance to do many of the usual tourist things. We will get a self-catering apartment, but where should we go? One apartment rental firm divides the city up into: East Village, Greenwich Village, Midtown E, Midtown W, Tribeca, Upper East Side, Upper West Side and Uptown. Which should we choose and why? All thoughts would be gratefully received. Of our remaining time, we want to drive in the Zion National Park area for a week and spend the last week - self-catering apartment again - in San Fransisco. This leaves five weeks or so and we like the idea of a week in each of 5 other cities. Which should we visit and why? Once again, any views that Fodorites have would be very welcome. |
Regarding NYC neighborhoods: Midtown would put you closer to most of the classic tourist attractions, but Greenwich Village and the Upper West Side would give you the most feel of being in a neighborhood, which you probably want for a longer stay. If you want a neighborhood where you'll feel comfortable, you'll probably feel too poor in the Upper East Side, too white uptown, and too young in the East Village. But like most cities, neighborhood borders can be ill-defined (especially by estate agents), and neighborhoods can change drastically from one block to the next, so come back here to check specifics before you sign anything.
If you are interested in getting the full impact of the US, especially a national political campaign, then you must visit very different parts of the country; you will find the underlying political climate very similar in NYC and San Francisco. I strongly recommend that you include a city in the Deep South (Atlanta, Birmingham, Nenphis) and one in the Midwestern "flyover states" if you want a full experience of the political process. |
Sorry, Nenphis ---> Memphis
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anon: Do you mean "too old" in East Village?
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Yes, I sure did.
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I'm not sure what you mean by following the Presidential election. Do you want to see the candidates speak in person?
The states with the largest number of electoral votes in the electoral college(and therefore most important to the outcome of the election) are California New York Texas Florida Pennsylvania Details here http://www.senate.gov/reference/reso...df/RL30527.pdf As to neighborhoods in NYC, in your shoes I'd consider splitting a 2 week stay in 2 different locations, one uptown (probably upper east or upper west side) and one downtown location... that, depending on your tastes and apt. availability. Don't know which rental firm you've contacted. Nyhabitat.com has done well for several Fodorites. www.apartments2book.com is a London co. who, I've heard, gets very good prices for NY places but many of their apts are actually apt/hotels with the benefit of daily maid service etc. Just remember agents don't always identify a location totatlly accurately. They will use the most glamorous definition ;) and certain neighborhoods will have more/better apts. available than others. For best value and comfort, I'd pay as much attention to the apt itself as to the neighborhood. One idea that might interest you is staying in a "hosted" apt. (ie staying with someone in their apt.) If you get the right host, you can get a real inside view of things. citylightsnewyork.com is a co. that arranges this. I've seen several people rave about staying with someone in Murray Hill (midtown, east 30s). I'd just strongly urge you not to use a firm called Woogo also trading under the names urbanstay or yourstay. |
To live like a real New Yorker without breaking the bank - and given your ages I would suggest either the upper west side or the village. Both are very diverse, walkable, have tons of great inexpensive restaurants and cultural attractions (museums uptown, off broadway theater downtown) and will be much more affordable - and real - than midtown.
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One other note - although NYC is diverse in many ways - if you;re following the elections you'll find NYC unlike most of the rest of the country. Most areas are VERY heavily democratic (in my district last election the congressional candidate that came in second was Socialist Worker and the Republicans usually don;t bother to field a candidate) and most Reublicans here would be considered Democrats or liberals in a lot of other places.
The two elimination issues are reproductive rights and strong gun control - without supporting those issues someone's chance of being elected anything is practically nil - Democrat or Republican. |
The states with the greatest populations, and hence number of electoral votes, are not always the most interesting to be in. If a state is almost certainly going to go for one candidate or the other, then both candidates will likely pay less attention to that state, and more attention to states that are "swing" or borderline states -- the ones where the polls show that investing their time, money, and energy could influence enough votes to change the outcome in that state.
Because of this, sometimes the medium-sized states, or those with less-pronounced politics, end up getting the biggest advertising budgets per capita and celebrity campaign visits. |
Most Presidential candidates never even show up in NYC to speak- the Dem's have us, the Republicans don't bother.
They all come here to fundraise-but that tends to be private. |
A stop in the home state of the candidates could be interesting.
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Thanks to all who have replied to my questions. The answers were most useful, particularly the idea of spending time in two NY neighbourhoods.
On the other question, could we disentangle the election issue? We can follow that from anywhere in the USA and I would not be expecting to see any candidates. Can we get opinions on the city question? Given that we are planning visits to NY and to San Fransisco and have 5 more weeks to allocate to 5 cities, which cities should we consider.....and why? |
If you are coming here to follow the Presidential election, you have the best chance of actully seeing the candidates and how they present themselves through advertising by visiting the important "swing states" -- that is, states with large electorates that may swing left or right, and therefore are hotly contested by the candidates.
In recent years, those states have included Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida, sometimes Illinois. I live in a state that reliably votes Democratic, and during the last Presidential election, I never saw a single ad for either candidate on TV! Neither Bush or Kerry thought it was worth spending any time or money in my state. Beyond the Presidential election, understanding American politics requires getting away from the coasts. Some places I might visit to better understand how Americans think are Phoenix, Denver, Atlanta, Seattle and Houston. And while San Francisco is pretty, it is Los Angeles that dominates American culture. No doubt you will want to spend some time in DC as well. Just about any New York neighborhood will do, but the upper west side is one of the few places remaining in New York where I still encounter strangers wanting to strike up a conversation in a cafe or coffee shop. While you are in New York, see if you can find a way to get inside a television newsroom. That will really open your eyes about the American political process. In fact, you might think about contacting some of the major TV news organizations here -- CBS News, ABC News, NBC News, CNN -- and tell them what you are planning to do. They might want to follow you around and do a running story about you over the entire course of the campaign. |
The reasons I suggest Phoenix, Denver, Atlanta, Seattle and Houston is that all are places with large suburban cultures where people are trying to pursue a new American Dream, and that is how Americans make visible their political thinking, by trying to grab onto what they think is their piece of the pie.
In the swing states, it almost doesn't matter which city you visit. Some of the more interesting ones are Miami, Orlando, Philadelphia, Cleveland and Chicago. |
Oh -- and how could we all forget?
You'll never understand what America is today unless you visit Las Vegas. It's become our signature American city. While you're there, try going to church as well as the strip shows, visit the public schools and the casinos where their parents work. |
Once you say <i>"could we disentangle the election issue? We can follow that from anywhere in the USA and I would not be expecting to see any candidates."</i> I don't know how you'd like us to pick cities. If not on any basis related to the election, are you looking for most tourist worthy? There are also a lot of cities I think would be worthwhile to see, but not sure I'd want to spend a whole week there. You've got to give us some other measures.
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If you really think that the election campaign can be experienced independently of your location, then you're going to learn a LOT about the American election process!
You can watch the US national-newscast television coverage by investing in a cable or satellite television connection and save yourself the cost of the trip. The only way the trip will be related to the election campaign is if you travel to different regions and locations that see the candidates and campaign issues from different perspectives. If you can't explain the concepts of "electoral college" and "red and blue states," then I suggest that your next bit of trip research should be to learn all about those fundamental aspects of US elections. Many of the cities that have been suggested here (including Denver, Las Vegas, and Seattle) are thriving and growing rapidly, and have many new residents (moving into the growing suburbs mentioned above) who lived somewhere-else until recently. The reason that in one of my earlier posts I mentioned the "flyover states" is that you'll get an interesting insight into American culture by visiting a city that's relatively stable, too. |
This thread is getting confusing. Let's go back to the original post. What exactly do you mean by "follow the presidential election '08"? Since you've always wanted to do this, you must be able to clarify it for us. Do you mean observing the mass media (TV, newspaper), talking to your neighbors. what is it that you expect to do or experience here that you couldn't do at home?
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I love this post! Interesting concept, and great answers full of super, detailed info about NYC.
Not to do with the election, but it seems to me you might want to visit New England before/after NYC. It's a great time of year to visit the NH/Maine coast, or take a drive through the Woodstock/Queechee area of Vermont. A rather central area to these places is Manchester/Concord area in New Hampshire, which is also a little over an hour to Boston or Boston's "northshore," which is an interesting and picturesque area. Good luck with your trip, Tassie! Sounds great! |
From OP: "On the other question, could we disentangle the election issue?" and "Given that we are planning visits to NY and to San Fransisco and have 5 more weeks to allocate to 5 cities, which cities should we consider.....and why?"
Since you have replied asking to "disentangle" the election issue, but you are still wondering about other cities, I'd ask what sort of cities do you like? Many people will recommend Las Vegas, but some people (myself included) detest Las Vegas. Similarly, I don't know why anyone would go to Phoenix (unless it was to see the Arizona countryside which is lovely, or to visit my in-laws, but Phoenix is boring and awful). But this is a matter of opinion and what you are looking for in a city. I'd recommend Boston to any first time USA visitor as I think of it as both historical and hip. Too many US cities are just sprawlville places now without anything much unique about them (seen one you've seen them all). So, you might have to more clearly define what it is you want to do here. |
How about attending a Labor Day parade--especially interesting during an election year.
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The other thing I don;t think anyone has mentioned is that you seem to be concentrating on the Presidential election. Often some of the senatorial and gubernatorial elections are almost as important - and even more exciting. (A president with a completely uncooperative senate can hardly be effective.)
And it's kind of hard this far out to know which will be the most important ones - again - back to that swing state issue. And the issues are often very diferent from those "official" issues of the national election. (There are states where the presidential candidate is vital to the election of the local people - and other states where the local candidates do everything to distance themselves from the national candidate - due to particular regional/local issues.) I will agree that although NYC is the center of news media - both broadcast and print - it's not the most exciting place - since most races are foregone conclusions. (Here it's the democratic primaries that will bring out the big bucks and nasty slogans.) |
wliwl,
I wasn't recommending Las Vegas and Phoenix for any other reason than to fulfill tassietiger's request to focus on the political side of America in 2008. I didn't say I liked them. But they are politically more representative of the forces shaping America than Boston. |
This whole exercise has been very informative. Can I say two things?
First, in 2008 I shall be an Australian political scientist at the end of my working road. In answer to the question from 'Anonymous', I just want to be in the USA to follow an American Presidential election 'on-site' - through newspapers and TV. It will be so much better than trying to follow it at home. However, I do like 'Nessundorma's' suggestion of contacting a news organisation and will follow up this idea. Second our holidays are typically self-catering stays in cities where we potter about for about 1-2 weeks. It is not to everyone's taste, for we undoubtedly miss a lot, but it suits us - we can sit for an afternoon in Venice in a square drinking Italian beer, make three visits to Musee d'Orsay in a fortnight's stay in Paris, spend a full day at Castle Howard or most of a day a the Bempton Cliffs bird sanctuary. We don't race around! So back to US cities. We have New York and San Francisco pencilled in. Which five other cities should we see if this turns out to be our only visit to the USA? 'Dreamer2' referred to the state of Vermont. If one of the cities turns out to be Boston, would we be close enough to do some leaf-peeping in Vermont? |
Hi tassietiger,
Near the end of April of this year, I am going to a family gathering which has no less then 4 executives of U.S. national media, 2 of them TV for major networks. Would you like to exchange e-mails and I can sound them out about possible interest in you as a media star? Back to your question: Which US cities besides NY and SF? For pure enjoyment, Chicago (best architecture) Southern California (it's all one big city from Santa Barbara to San Diego and it's got the best weather), Seattle (best food), Maine (OK, it's not a city but it's got the best scenery on the east coast) and Las Vegas (it's the most despicable). And we assume you are going to Washington just to get the real aroma. |
ttt
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Forgetting about the election, from a vacation point of view, if I were picking 5 cities I would be happy to spend 1 week in (perhaps including day trips ;) ), trying to spread them across the country, I'd pick
Washington DC Savannah or Charleston Chicago Portland San Diego I'd visit Boston from NYC and LA from San Diego. |
That's a pretty reasonable list of cities. Except that visiting Boston "from NYC" isn't very practical, since it's a 4-hour trip each way.
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What, no mention of New Orleans? Besides the fact that it is a singular U.S. city due to the confluence of French, American & Afro-Caribbean culture, the issue of levees should be a key issue in the upcoming presidential election.
And BTW, the food & music are great! |
Don't know if you have your answer regarding NYC neighborhoods or not, but I would vote for the Upper West Side. Manhattan is so easy to get around that it's not worth staying in two neighborhoods. Why trouble yourself? The Upper West is very neighborhoody,has lots of restaurants and excellent grocery shopping, not to mention being close to Central Park and Riverside Drive. I would not recommend Midtown at all. It's mostly offices and downtown while great doesn't have the parks and can be more touristy.
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Do you always start planning your trips two years in advance? Well okay - here's my two cents:
There is no need to live in two different neighborhoods in Manhattan - the city's efficient public transit system is part of its charm. Avoid midtown (mostly business, theaters, and tourist traps) and Uptown (less safe and no major nearby sights). The "upper sides" are high-end but generally less character-full than the downtown neighborhoods. San Francisco is also a wonderful city to visit though I recommend renting a car for part of your stay to visit the wine country and the coastlines to the North and the South of the bay area. You probably will not want a car for the city itself because parking can be extremely difficult. If you have no problems navigating steep hills I recommend the Cow Hollow area for great local restaurants, good weather, and views of Alcatraz and the bay. The Fisherman's Wharf and Union Square areas (not to be confused with Union Street in Cow Hollow) are over-touristed so visit but don't live there. As for the rest of your vacation, I would focus on the "swing states" where advertising and candidate visits will be most visible. From Manhattan, Philadelphia is only a short train ride away and is full of great historical landmarks (as well as lots of grime and crime issues at the outskirts - be careful). It is a very Democratic city but because of the conservative western half the state of Pennsylvania will likely be an important swing state. From Philadelphia you should take another train ride further south to Washington DC. You could also take time to enjoy the small towns and amazing fall colors of New Hampshire during early October. New Hampshire's primary will be long past but it has been a swing state for the last several elections. Looking beyond the North-East, Miami is a very characterful city in a state which will get a lot of attention. Other swing states are in the northwest (I slightly prefer Portland over Seattle but like both) and the southwest (Las Vegas is a given but I also like the small towns of Taos New Mexico and Durango Colorado). That adds up to more than 5 choices but you still have two more years to narrow down the list. Save the warmest cities for the end of your trip. Good luck and have fun! |
I would definitely add Santa Fe or Tucson, and maybe San Antonio. Charleston or Savannah for sure. Seattle or Portland. So that makes three/four. Maybe New Orleans. and/or Miami. Maybe Vegas if you will not be too grossed out by all the tack. These are a few of the cities which, in my opinion, have the most character and unique flavor. Very different than
Tasmania, I would think! |
I second exactly what mclaurie proposes-but possibly adding a St. Louis or Kansas City and at least one driving road trip within 300 miles of the Mississippi.
If you are serious about the political science aspect, you need to realize that news coverage across the USA is not equitable in several aspects, nor do many rurals listen to national news networks. I live in two states, IL & MI, and the "news" between these two is 180 degrees different upon the same event- just in the tone of approach from city to rural, before the "facts" are even broached. Most of your planned vacation, IMHO, is a great vacation and experience but in relation to political happening is like watching the Civil War from Vermont and thinking you're living it. This political polarization is strong and centered not only upon self-identity (USA) issues. The Democrats will not win unless they chose a candidate who has a great appeal and connection to the working class (under $30,000 household income)belief system- which includes some quite religion based ethics as an ideal. This is just my opinion, but I have been right about the last 4 Presidential elections. You would need to be in smaller markets to get another and less altered view if you are doing serious political science considerations. |
I agree with staying in the Upper West Side or in the Village when in NYC.
While you're visiting Zion, be sure to also visit Bryce. I strongly suggesting spending another week there to see more of the "west" -- maybe fly in to Denver first, then drive around the "Four Corners" area (New Mexico, Arizona... come on, the Grand Canyon is still not to be missed!...) then up into Utah for the national parks. I've done this and it was spectacular; definitely a big part of experiencing the USA. Also I suggest visiting the following cities: Boston (for the historical feel, strong New England culture, drive up to see some leaves), Los Angeles (very different from San Francisco, great everything!), and Washington DC. |
Just a quick thank-you to all who answered my questions - we have lots to think about and assess. I suspect that closer to the time I'll be asking more!
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