WalMart- Destroyer of Small Town Downtowns
 

Is Walmart a destroyer of small town America? I've seen it in disparate areas of the country in my auto travels this year. Wooster, Ohio. Easton, MD. Eastern North Carolina, dozens of towns along RT. 258 made desolate by strategically placed WalMarts in bigger towns like Greenville. Fishing for opinions and information.

As a tree lover I find it funny that Walmart says it gives to the environment. I bet they have cut down millions of trees for Walmarts all over the world.<BR><BR>Yes, they do ruin downtowns!

And your travel related question is?

I think so-and as to travel---as I travel across the country I am seeing the landscape change from small town squares and downtowns to little towns full of for rent and sale signs and a big ugly Wallmart with a huge parking lot.Driving through rural Illinois one time, noticing in all the farms and fields-a Wallmart looming on the horizon.

Shane, there are probably better forums to ask your question but, to respond to Paul's query just above, there is a travel component to all this.<BR><BR>Part of the joy of travel is seeking out the different and unusual. Speaking for myself, I travel to learn and to broaden my horizons. One of the downsides of America in the last decades of the the 20th Century was the national proliferation of "big box" chain stores, of which WalMart is just one example. WalMart does to small towns what Home Depot does to the local hardware store and Borders does to the neighborhood book seller, just to choose two examples. Because they're ubiquitous, they become numbing, and make areas look alike that ought to have distinction.<BR><BR>But you can't legislate WalMarts out of existence. Paris and Rome, for example, legally forbid hypermarkets (roughly akin to WalMarts) from within their city boundaries. Their goal is to preserve the small shops that give those cities their character. But what do residents of those cities do? Flock in their cars to the hypermarkets that lie just outside the city limits.

Now the court square's just a set of streets<BR>That the people go round but they seldom think<BR>Bout the little man that built this town<BR>Before the big money shut em down<BR>And killed the little man<BR>Oh the little man<BR><BR>Alan Jackson - "Little Man"

Bingo, Neal. With a wife and 3 kids, I do all my travel by Honda van. Driving through downtowns made desolate by Walmart is part of my travel experience.

"made desolate by Walmart"?<BR><BR>Huh?<BR><BR>Don't you mean made desolate by Walmart's customers? Let's not pretend this is the fault of ole Sam- no, it's the fault of every customer who wants a large selection of bottom-end products at low prices.

I agree with Larry. If people wanted the mom-and-pop stores downtown, they would buy at them and not go to Walmart.

Read Bill Quinn's "How Wal*Mart is Destroying America" to get a picture of the negative influence WalMart has on the country. And don't think I'm some way-out socialist. I have views that would make Rush "The Motor Mouth Pumpkin Head" Limbaugh blush. But my days at worshipping at the false altar of absolute laissez-faire capitalism ended when I grew up. Wal*Mart is a corrosive influence to the small town and to the environment as well. If you want confirmation of the damage Wal*Mart does, call the city offices of Nowata, Oklahoma. Wal*Mart moved into Nowata, drove out of business the small town shops, built a super-Wal*Mart in Bartlesville, boarded up the Nowata Wal*Mart, and has left Nowata with almost zero corporate property tax base for the town. That's desolation ... and mean. Gives honorable businessmen a bad name.

Shane, you've now had your opportunity to climb up on a soapbox and preach to the masses. Thank you for illuminating us. But at this point I now throw my lot in with Mr. Rabe: this ain't a dump-on-the-godless-corporate-soul-destroyers forum, it's a travel forum. Time to move on.

Of course we are the makers of our own undoing. Blame WalMart if you like, but blame also Ford, Exxon, RCA, Key Bank, Congress, your school teachers and Ike for enabling a prosperous, mobile, acquisitive global society where obtaining stuff as cheaply as possible (stuff including plane tickets, gallons of gas, and other "travel" items) is given priority over character, tradition, history, or community. <BR><BR>Depending on State law, most local governments support big box retail not for the property taxes they generate, but for the sales taxes they produce, or the State income tax generated through the creation of the jobs. Believe me, when you're a local government leader faced with rising costs and chronic taxpayer revolt, having Wal- or K-Mart sniffing around your edges is an intoxicating prospect.<BR><BR>On the other hand, many small merchants have found they can compete by stocking items not available at the big boys, or emphasizing customer service. Smart merchants can compete, evidence the many towns where big-box retail has actually helped downtown redevelopment, through forcing the merchants to act smart, sometimes for the first time in years. It's not entirely a lose-lose scenario.

John is right -- how many of us complainers have Wal*Mart stock (safely within our 401K mutual funds)? hmmmm....<BR><BR>

It's not just the WalMart customers (although I agree that we need to do more on our own to keep small business afloat)--WalMart has a very aggressive, take no prisoners, legal team. What small towns go through trying to keep WalMart out is horrendous, even if the majority of the townspeople don't want Big Sam and his Big Box in town. The lawsuits can cripple a smalltown budget, which is why more than a few have caved rather than keep up the fight. Vancouver, WA, (which isn't a small town but still couldn't afford the legal assault) tried to fight off WalMart and eventually had to give in. And as the French say, "apres moi, le deluge." Now the east side of Vancouver has turned into Big Box country, with nightmare traffic jams, loss of small businesses (except chiropractors, you can still find one on every corner) and so on. Shane, if you want more information, contact The Columbian newspaper in Vancouver, WA. <BR>WalMart as whole illustrates many of the bad things about American consumerism--an emphasis on quantity over quality. Most Americans have closets bursting with not terribly attractive, not well fitted clothes made by cheap labor. It's the fast food concept applied to clothing and housewares. <BR>Yes, this is a travel issue as well as a political issue.

I read very recently that the island of Barbados has approved and will soon have a WalMart...I can't remember which New York City newspaper this item appeared in, but it was only in the past few days.

It's not hard to make the link between the growth of suburban sprawl and the lack of connection most of us feel with our communities.<BR><BR>I travel all over the U.S. on business and over the past 10-20 years many of the cities and towns have begun to look exactly alike and without soul.

I humbly submit that WalMart (and any of the big chain stores) does not do anything to destroy small towns. It's the PEOPLE that destroy small towns!<BR>Suppose that WalMart opens a store on the outskirts of town, and nobody goes there to shop. Then it would be WalMart that's driven out, not the small shopkeepers. But the vocal minority (and it must be a minority, must it not, else there wouldn't be a problem?) seems to love bashing big business, even though the problem (as they seem to think it is) is precipitated by their friends and neighbors. So stop whining and expecting the government to fix the situation. As far as I can tell, the various local governments are representing their constituencies very well, as evidenced by the support these stores receive once they're built.

Les- I hearby banish you from this forum. You make far too much sense.<BR><BR>I encourage those who are whining about Walmart to read your post over and over again until they finally get it.

Well Les and Larry, what's your response to the people who DIDN'T want a WalMart in their town but were forced to accept one in light of an endless legal battle that would have crippled the community's limited budget? That's the "the people", that's WalMart shoving its store down the people's throat. And even if the small town inhabitants DON'T shop there (they don't), the clueless hordes come from towns up the road, clogging up local streets (WalMart promises that won't happen but it usually does) and causing ongoing traffic jams for the neighborhood.

I heard that Vermont has enacted legislation that prevents WalMart from expanding into that state. Is that right?<BR><BR>Something else that you might not know about WalMart: I don't think they own the property their stores are located on. Basically, they come in, establish the store, use up the building, then about 10 years later, move on to a new location in town, leaving the owners of that shopping center holding the bag. Think about it. How many "old WalMart" shopping centers do you know of? In my tiny town, there are 2. KMart, however, is still in the same location. We're too small for a Target.

In my travels I saw an angel dancing on the head of a pin! This raises the question: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I am grateful that we have this Travel Forum which affords me the opportunity to post this travel-related query. I look forward to resolving this matter by day's end. (They sell angels @ Walmart, don't they?)

S:<BR><BR>I know what you mean about abandoned former Wal-Mart stores. I have seen several. Rarely does it get replaced by something that draws as much attention. And the stores in the same shopping center left behind by Wal-Mart often suffer because of it. <BR><BR>I can recall an instance in Madison, Georgia where the town successfully kept Wal-Mart away, if I am remembering it right. They have a very busy courthouse square area (where part of "In the Heat of the Night" TV series was filmed) that they wanted to keep busy. But it took quite a lot of doing on the part of locals. In many towns, people aren't willing to spend the time doing it.<BR><BR>I don't think Wal-Mart is totally evil but I do think I've seen enough. My brother-in-law read last week that they intend on building more new stores this year than they have in all previous years of operation combined. ACK.

Yes, yes, yes, Walmart has destroyed some downtowns. So has KMart, Target and the basic shopping mall. But where else can you buy panty hose and a shotgun in the same store?

Walmart wants to shove a super Walmart down the throats of scenic Kent Island, MD. Plans are to put it at the foot of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. Though I am sure the poll wasn't absolutely accurate, the Bay Times did a phone poll of the county- something like 92 % of the people did not want a Walmart. But Walmart's fighting to go ahead anyway. If Walmart wins, Acme goes out of business. Acme, which pays living wages. And Walmart doesn't. Ask anyone who works for them.

If being a consumer is all you have going for you, join the rah-rah gang for Walmart. But if you love your neighbors and your community and your friends and wish to conserve land you regard sacred, you should be against Walmart.

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but the small towns in the deep South were in decline as far back as the late 60's, and that was long before Walmart.

We lost our monkey thread FOR THIS???

Sorry, that response was supposed to go on the 'Key West' thread.<BR><BR>

Where is your personal responsibility in this??<BR><BR>Isn't it the responsibility of citizens in a town to patronize their local businesses? If they chose to shop at Wal-Mart don't they have that right?<BR><BR>This is still America. If you dislike Wal-Mart, vote with your wallet and don't shop there. But don't complain or deny someone else the right to do so. <BR><BR>By the way, if Wal-Mart can sell products at a significanlty lower price level than the local merchant, doesn't that mean that the people in town increase their purchasing power.<BR><BR>Otherwise, it sounds like you support high prices and an inefficient economy.

Oh, come off it all! Can't you see that the WalMarts and Meiers and Lowes are the future of America? <BR><BR>Aren't they the trendsetters in land developments? (And abandonment.) How about that rampant capitalizm? (On inferior, homoginized sales items.) And they have been the "made in the USA" flagwavers for a decade! (When they haven't been pulling off those "made in Mexico, China, or forced labor camp" labels and replacing with yellow happy-face stickers.)<BR><BR>But the big contribution to the trend is that they will "hire" ALL those laid off dotcom employees or General Motor workers -- but at the part-time level (up to 35 hours per week) so they won't get benefit packages. Minor little things unnecessary to "the little people" like health insurance or disability, don'tcha know?<BR><BR>But I'm getting too somber for the happy escapisms of this travel forum. Back to travel daydreams of Maui timeshare owners!

Mr Killjoy,<BR>It sounds like you don't like our country very much. Our free-enterprise system of capitalism, is seemingly overwhelming your senses. <BR><BR>Perhaps you might consider relocating to a country like Sweden. Their system of Socialism might appeal to you. I gather you don't mind 80% tax rates?<BR><BR>Alternatively, you might try France. Their labor unions are very good about preventing corporate layoffs by demanding full employment. Of course, when they company has no choice but to close down, like Roeun-Poulonex, because it can't restructure, that 10% unemployment rate could become a problem when trying to find another job.<BR><BR>Or you may want to consider Sub-Saharan Africa. Their inability to have any kind of economy will prevent problematic decisions on things like finding a job, feeding your family, voting, self-determination, etc, etc.

Teddy Roosevelt and William Howard Taft were very pro-business. But they saw that something was amiss when someone like John D. Rockefeller could corner the oil market. So they scrapped laissez-faire for the good of the people and the good of the economy. They busted up the trusts. Today, Walmart is trying to corner several different commercial markets. Unless we want to doom our kids to being $ 7 an hour clerks with no health insurance, we should fight the Walmarts.

In the name of economic efficiency, maybe we should hand over Yellowstone Park to Disney (sarcasm). Turn over the Washington Monument to American Airlines.

Phil, do you mean Rhone-Poulenc?<BR><BR>I think they are still around under the name "Aventis" (www.aventis.com)

Forgive the spelling and yes I do mean Rhone-Poulnec.

Well, there is NO WallMart in Key West, is there?

Sounds like I'm in the minority because I LOVE Walmart. When I moved to Chicago it took me a while to find one as there are none in the city and the closest is on Touhy Avenue in Skokie. The problem is even when I make that 40 min. drive (at least once a month I might add) just to go to the the Walmart its just not the same because it's is not a Super-Walmart like I was used too. Complain if you want but Walmart especially the Super Walmarts are convenient. Convenience is the name of the game and it is one stop shopping. I can drop off a precription for glasses when I get first get there (they have their own optometrists) go buy all my supplies, then on to the side that is full-size grocery store, deli and bakery, get my medical prescriptions filled, sit down and eat at the full-service restaurant even get my oil changed and tires rotated. By the time I leave I have all of my errands done without going place to place in and out and checking out several different times. For a busy working girl, there is nothing better than one stop shopping not to mention that their prices are lower because they buy in bulk. Evidentlyy I'm not the only one who likes them either, every time I go I have to drive around and look for a parking space as the lot is always full!

Shane wrote: "Unless we want to doom<BR>our kids to being $7 an hour clerks with no health insurance, we should fight the Walmarts." Well, Shane, who is "we"? If you mean all those who think as you do, and they number enough to make a difference, then voting with your feet will indeed be effectively fighting WalMart. However, if the numbers are insufficient to achieve the effects you desire, then what you're advocating leads me to believe that you feel you're a better judge of what's best for the people than they are. I happen to think that I'm smarter than you are, and therefore would like to be able to make my own choice. I'll bet that very few people on this forum think that you're smarter than they are (can we see a show of hands?). Can you spell "elitism"?

I again ask -- where is the TRUE travel related question in this?<BR><BR>Isn't this a troll started by people who are completely certain that they alone know what's best for the consumers and residents of an area, and that only they should have the authority to decide what stores people can shop at?<BR><BR>If the residents of a community freely choose to buy at WalMart instead of their downtown merchants, I see no reason to tell them otherwise. If, after a WalMart opens in a town, its residents freely choose not to shop there and instead choose their downtown shops (with higher prices, less selection, fewer hours of operation, stingier return policies, and a total refusal to base promotions on anything but family connections), the WalMart will close down. People who drive by won't support the WalMart (of course, they didn't support downtown merchants, either).<BR><BR>I'm not fond of consumerism, and even less of the consequences of shopping malls throughout rural America. But I'm MUCH less fond of people telling me that they, and they alone, should decide for me where I can shop.

Dear Shane, instead of "dooming" your kids to $7/hr jobs, you should instill in your kids the ambition to be the CEO of companies like Walmart, if they choose. Or if your kid came home with a job paying couple of hundred thou, would you throw him out as an infidel? Or are you teaching your kid 'us vs them' mentality, which will guarantee he will be doomed to a life of envy and hate?<BR>Oh yeah, and xx1 up there, I really hate it when all those "other" cars come and use "my" street. It's so inconsiderate of them.<BR>In the meantime, inspired by the above socialistic drivel, I have looked into all the web sites of the box retailers, and in an effort to boycott travels to any town in which one is located, have determined that I must move to _____? Where? And when I find that place, I must never leave it. (I sure did like buying my food at Costco. It was so much cheaper. Oh well)<BR>