"My husband's parents were extremely permissive (to the point of almost being negligent, I believe), but he turned to be a responsible, hard-working, moral person."

Karens, I am not picking on you when I say this...

There are some children who come from the most abusive/impoverished homes (or no homes at all) and their success in life has <b>absolutely nothing to do with their parents</b> -- they are what we call <b> resilient</b> in their development.

My heart goes out to the family of that girl. This is something no one would want to happen, and the not knowing of what happened to her must be the most stressful situation the parents have ever been in.

I think BamaKelly has wonderful insight and hits a home run on many issues. The suburbs do see 'a lot'. Esp. between the time school gets out and the parents get home from work.

Hug your kids tonight and be thankful they are still around.

bamakelly, I find your response to be so hind-sightedly clear that I can't stand it.

Your friend 'could not feel worse' about what happened. They should feel bad because as a chaperone they DID NOT DO THIER JOB!!!!!

As I wrote in another string there were 40 ADULTS on this trip, not just 7. What the hell were they doing?

Surely parents need to teach their kids how to get along in this world by the time the kid is 18. But with 40 adults along with the kids they DID have the expectation that their kids would be paid attention to.

I am P.O.'d at the adults who went along on this junket for a good time but did nothing to protect the kids.

mm

I traveled with a friend when I graduated from high school (as stated in my much earlier post on this thread). I was 17, she 18. We managed to fly alone to Florida, get from Daytona to Orlando, and fly back home again without getting into any trouble. I'm not sure how it would have been had I gone with a large group of unchaperoned teens!

But you know, I don't care how well you're brought up, how many jobs you have had, how mature you think you are. Every teenager has the possibility of getting into trouble.

I grew up in a tough neighborhood. By the time I was 18, I had been exposed to (and almost talked into getting into the exposer's car), followed, beat up, dealt with a peeping tom, etc. By 18 I had eyes all around my head. I still do. I could smell a dangerous person a mile away. When I would go away with friends for spring break, I was the den mother, not allowing my friends to go off alone with guys or walk anywhere without one of us, etc.

I walked everywhere or took city buses. We weren't protected by school bus rides and parents driving us to the mall. If you wanted to shop, you took a bus downtown or walked to a neighboorhood store. I knew what streets to avoid.

I worked many jobs as a teenager, could clean the house, cut the lawn, do laundry, etc.

Despite my very good street smarts and my ability to work, I still managed to do some pretty stupid things. I cringe when I think about them!

I work on a college campus, and let me tell you, some of the 23 year olds who you would think are mature enough to go off on their own are more IMMATURE than some of the younger students.

There are no perfectly right or wrong answers to this!

mm--There have been many conflicting news reports about the number of studnts and number of chaperones on the trip. However, there were in fact only 7 adults on the trip. Because I used to teach in a neighboring system, I could actually name them all for you, as three of them are acquaintances and one is a personal friend. 4 teachers/coaches were from the middle school and high school and 3 were their spouses. 125 students went to Aruba, and 124 returned. But you can believe whatever you want to.

My post was in hindsight, and one of my points was that we must learn from these mistakes, which is always something we learn from hindsight. It's also a constructive way of dealing with a tragedy instead of a destructive and condemning one.

And, yes, my friend does feel absolutely terrible that he did not do a better job of chaperoning the students, for starters having a curfew at all, let alone enforcing one. It's the first trip of this kind that he's ever been on, much less with students, and the chaperones did a really poor job of actually chaperoning. I hope it makes you feel better that they are now painfully aware of that fact.

As I said before, I think this story is one of many mistakes, made by several groups of people. I think we'd all prefer to think that we'd have done a better job as parents, chaperones, friends, eye-witnesses, but in fact, all we can do is learn from this tragedy and others like it, place clear limits on our children according to what they can handle, and hope they use good judgement when we're not around.

seetheworld - I totally agree with you! In fact, just last night I was watching a Dr. Phil re-run, and he had on a remarkable young woman who was poised and achieved much academically, despite having lived in a nightmare of a home. I didn't catch all the details, b/c I was flipping back between Dr. Phil &amp; Game 7 of the Heat-Pistons game, but her father was abusive and at one time was homeless and living on the streets. That she could hold herself together and perform so well at school is amazing.

Many of us succeed despite our parent's mistakes, as large or as small as they may be. Despite some's self-opinion, I don't know any &quot;perfect&quot; parents, nor do I know any &quot;perfect&quot; kids. I know many whom I highly respect, and I do try to learn from them.

Hi bama,

MSNBC consistently says 40 adults while CNN reports 7. CNN also says 100 students while MSNBC just says more than 100.

As pointed out many times none of us know for sure what went on down there.

I do not mean to be critical of you and I apologize if I came off that way. However, I'm still upset with the chaperones.

I hope they find her alive.

mm

p.s. is &quot;Bama&quot; a nickname for grandma or a reference to Alabama?

mm--no problem. I just wanted to get the facts straight. The national news is reporting many conflicting stories. The local news (for once) seems to be the most correct, and since it was such a large group, many people around here know others who actually went on the trip, etc etc. The biggest problem seems to be that no one on the actual trip even really knows what happened. The local station, nbc13.com and the website al.com. seem to be the most reliable reporting (with the Birmingham News online). Everything they have posted seems to be the most accurate.

As for the chaperones, I completely understand your frustration. I would hope that is not the norm for such trips, and I would hope that this makes chaperones do a better job in the future. As a many-time school event chaperone, the whole story horrifies me on many levels.

Bama is a nickname for Alabama. :)

Horrible, tragic story on many levels. I am praying for that girl and also for the family.

Every 18- , or 9- or even 6-year old is aware that it is absolutely insane to go off with someone you don't know, let alone in a foreign country &amp; especially a beautiful teenager going off with 3 men. It would be nearly impossible to chaperone someone who was apparently determined to do whatever she wanted. My daughter is a high school teacher. On last year's senior class trip to Mexico (she did not attend), one of the girls was entertaining two young men in her room and after getting very drunk, she fell off her balcony &amp; was killed. This was a well-chaperoned trip &amp; the girl was IN HER OWN ROOM.

It is so sad, but terrible things happen when people, not just kids, don't think that they can get hurt or worse.

There is another young woman, I think 21 or 22, missing in Cleveland. She was with friends in a bar and decided to go home early by herself. No one has seen her for a week. There were 2 young women early 20's here in Columbus murder
ed. One vanished from her apartment and her body was found a couple of years later.Aanother young woman was entering her apt. with groceries when 2 men grabbed her, robbed her, locked her in the trunk of her car and set it on fire.

We have these horrible tales in the suburbs near Chicago constantly.

We just had one with a young male who was an extremely spoiled young man, Asian-American, son of two Doctors with a fabulous future assured before him. He went on a ride by himself to get some pot or pills; everyone was flabberghasted who knew him.

He was hyjacked with his expensive car, taped/bound &amp; put into his own trunk. Hr actually called 911 repeatedly and they continually played in our own news for days. But they couldn't trace him in time. He was found murdered. He was 18.

In my neck of the woods it is the very privledged youth that are making some very bad judgments.

JJ5-I agree, but I also think some young women are either extremely trusting or naive. In the case of the young woman vanishing from her apt., her neighbors heard a scream and thumping noises and never bothered to call the police. As parents perhaps the best thing we can do for our daughers is enroll them in a self-defense class, our local rec center offers them as does the Y.

As to Aruba, I wonder if they thoroughly researched the tour company before they booked them. Are they a member of the tour group association? Or, just a fly by night outfit that takes the money, books the trip and doesn't care? I have been a group leader for numerous adult and teen ski groups and we always had information what to do in case of emergencies etc. and packets of stuff to read. One tour company even gave the trip leaders 2 way radios to use. Sounds like this group of chaperones didn't have a clue. They should have had a buddy system, curfews etc. And, I would have made darn sure everyone was present and accounted for before I left for the airport. Being a chaperone/tour group leader is not fun, even with adutls you have problems. I had one adult who was staying in the same room as her boyfriend and caught him with another woman. Talk about a problem. And on ski trips you always have someone getting hurt etc. IMO, the tour company should have given the chaperones better insturction.

CNN also did a story on the dangers of vacationing and letting your guard down. They cited Jamaica, which has one of the highest murder rates in the world. Margaritaville isn't crime free any more.

&quot;&quot;As to Aruba, I wonder if they thoroughly researched the tour company before they booked them. Are they a member of the tour group association? Or, just a fly by night outfit that takes the money, books the trip and doesn't care? &quot;&quot;

I do not think the problem lies with who sold them the vacation. Everyone needs to take personal responsibility.

When I buy a car, they don't give me a speech on drunk driving, nor should they, it's my responsibility to know right from wrong and make decisions.

As a former Group Dept Manager at a wholesale tour operator I have personally booked these types of groups to Aruba in the past. The hotels have chaperone requirements ranging from 1 per room to 1 per 20 students. The travel agents that called us actually would get upset that they required them at all, parents too, they just want to send them alone...and we always have parents calling us that have no clue when flights come in, etc. They are not involved and most seem to not want to be. How the actual &quot;groups&quot; operate is their business and they are responsible. I personally would get calls from kids in their rooms at the hotel with complaints about the plumbing and I would have to say &quot;go to the front desk and tell them&quot;,...no common sense sometimes.

We have also had customers get into trouble who are adults, intoxicated usually, etc.

I personally think this could of had a better chance of being prevented with a buddy system or roll call, it seems like no one noticed or kept up with each other very well.
I do not think the problem lies with who sold them the vacation. Everyone needs to take personal responsibility.

Joan -

Of course I made some bad decisions at 18 or 20. I still make some bad decisions. Everone makes bad decisions. The point is that they were not bad decisions that were life threatening.

And it's not my parents fault if I make bad decisions now. Nor was it their fault if I made bad decisions when I was 18 or 20 - becaue I was an adult - granted a young one - but an adult by then - not a gullible child.

I'm sure I did things they would have felt were bad decisions - but I did them with my eyes open - having weighed risks and not doing anything that was putting my life in danger.

It seems to me that this child had no idea of what risks she was taking - but was simply incredibly immature and gullible.

(When I was 15 I was meeting a friend for an afternoon movie. I had gone into the city earlier to go shopping and was going to meet her in front of the Music Hall - which still showed movies then. While waiting I was approached by a very well-dressed man with a briefcase saying he thought I was pretty (I was young and attractive but - believe me - no danger to Christy Brinkly) and had the potential to be a model. He gave me his card and suggested I go with him to the agency for an interview and to have head shots taken.

I laughed at him and told him to try it out on the tourists. He said you would be amazed at how many young girls it worked on - and admitted they were recruiting them for adult films.

I would suggest that not only would this young woman have believed him - but her parents had probably never even warned her about things like this.

I did discuss this with several girlfriends at dinner years later - and almost all said the same had happened to them - if not the we think you can be an actress variation.

Every parent needs to teach their daughters about this stuff - and the realities involved in becoming a model, actress or singer - but half the time I think the parents are as gullible as the girls.)

I'm dumbfounded. Why are people blaming everyone EXCEPT the individuals who actually abducted her?!

Assuming she's not another runaway bride and lets hope maybe she is and this will have a happy outcome blaming the mother/chaperone/tour company is just wrong. They are the victims. Very much like accusing a rape victim that they MUST have done something to deserve the attack. Shame on you.

You might be right, jette, but the reports all indicate that she went with them willingly.

jette, no one is saying that those individuals are not guilty. Yes, we all know that very bad psychopathic people exist and also opportunistic villains as well as mentally ill who can harm you greatly under dellusional beliefs or whatever.

We know that. But some of these kids really, truly are so naive that they don't have it register or translate into any degree of reality into their behaviors

We had a young gentleman in one of our local high schools who on a field trip to Yellowstone &quot;hopped&quot; into a hot spring because he thought it would be fun and a great show off feat. He died.
Someone must have always regulated his bath water for him. And I don't mean to be cruel, nor do these posters. Life can be very cruel, and it can be unforgiving.

There were no bad men to blame in the case of the hot spring. And this is certainly not the same, but the mindset is fairly similar- pure naive and impulsive behavior.

Unless you talk to some of these very protected people each day, as I do, you might not comprehend the depths of the trust levels to anyone who seems to have authority or &quot;coolness&quot; factors, or the lack of maturity in tons of social situations.

No one is blaming the victim here. And yes in an ideal world a young woman should be free to roam wherever she chooses unmolested. But we don't live in an ideal world and what many posters are commenting on is the lack of &quot;street smarts&quot; that seem to have been demonstrated here. It is very sad that a young woman is missing. It is also sad that many young people are not given the tools to handle worlds that are different from those they are accustomed to. Many adults demonstrate the same lack of awareness that everyplace is not the same and that not everyone behaves as they would or as they would hope.

Wednesday-I don't know about you, but when I purchase a car I know I am buying from a reputable dealership who will provide good service after the sale. In the case of tour companies, one that books Ohio State Spring Break trips ended up going bust and tons of kids were left holding the bag. And there was another one that went belly up and stranded kids in Cancun. If I were putting my kid on a plane, I would make sure they were on the up and up. And the tour companies should provide chaperones a list of their responsibilities and what to do in case something happens. Chaperones are there for a reason, not to party. It is a liability issue.

Jette -- she went with the 3 locals willingly, but the 2 guys they have under arrest are not connected to the locals they have cleared (at this point, at least). In the event that the ex-security guards took her unwillingly after the locals dropped her off at her hotel, it may in fact be that she was a victim of crime.

That still doesn't justify her getting into a car with the locals in the first place, and it doesn't justify her friends allowing it to happen, nor the chaperones not requiring everyone to check in, but there may be more to the story --like abduction--that we hear about before it's all over.