Yes, karen, and do not have any second thoughts about the strict complaint. Be proud that you have the constitution to live with principles and consequences. They are the real love you can give your child, not presents and material things.

And as karen noted, very gallantly, I think because I do think it is against the main stream especially in suburbia and urban families- is that WORK itself is often the key.

Be it in fast foods, sales, landscaping etc. the lessons learned from 14-18 are priceless. And preferably NOT with a parent's business where they can get all kinds of perks.

But, in most cases Jr. or Miss is too busy taking lessons, doing sports, or playing with hobbies to have to work for anything that they might desire.

All those things are fine in themselves but without a work ethic coupled with the endurance to finish a job until the end, the child just stays a child.

Ah, c'mon, nytraveler, that is incredibly harsh. You don't even know what happened to this poor girl, and you are assuming if SHE went off, HER PARENTS are to blame?

You see, I'm reading 2 different opinions here. If you do not let your child go travel by themselves, you are a strict parent and your children will never mature. (However, by being too strict a parent, your children may be naive and get themselves into a situation that this girl in Aruba MAY have gotten herself into.)

But, if you do let your children go on a school trip - you are then still to blame?!

I think any kid of 18 has heard ad nauseum "don't talk to strangers". They've also heard "don't drink and drive" and "Just say No". And we all know how much 18 year olds follow THOSE rules. The many stories told in this thread show just how much that kind of advice is followed.

I don't want to presume anything but just reading the little you wrote, but I assume you don't have children?

nytraveler, do you have children?
One thing many people learn who have children is that often the most important things are outside of our control. One learns not to judge unless one has walked in another's shoes. Parenting is a lesson in humility for most. Also, one hopefully learns compassion.

All we know about this girl is that she is a bright and very accomplished girl. She probably made a bad choice and has paid dearly for it. Most children survive their teen years in spite of occasional bad judgment. Most parents experience some degree of fear as they let their children drive cars and go out with friends. We know we have to let them go, so we cross our fingers or pray for their safe return. Most of us are lucky, thank goodness.

I'm in total agreement with NYTraveler these parents are off the charts!

We have two adult daughters that we raised to distrust strangers and question authority, always. We also had their protection and safety as our utmost priority in their growing years and this continues even now.

There are so many parents today, who have no clue about their children's safety or how they are raising them.

#1. Parents of killers in Columbine Colorado. No clue that their sons were building bombs in the family garage to kill students and teachers. DUH!

#2. Parents of Jon Benet Ramsay...no clue that they would not hear someone breaking into daughters room several hundred feet away from their master bedroom. DUH!

#3. Parents of Samantha Smith in Utah...no clue that a derelict hired by them to work on their house (cheap wages) would ever think of breaking into their home (no locks on doors) to kidnap their daughter for sex.

#4. Parents of an 18 YO girl who would allow her to go to an a week long unsupervised vacation in Aruba with apparently no clue that she was capable of drinking in a bar and going off with 3 strange men at 2 am in the morning! DUH! DUH! and DUH!

Give me a break!

As a former 12th grade teacher, I think a little bit of everything everyone is saying here is true. Some 18 year olds are able to handle a solo trip out of the country. Some 18 year olds are able to live on their own, sucessfully, straight out of high school.

However, as a former 12th grade teacher in the suburb that neighbors Mountain Brook, where the girl was from, I have to say that a better generalization is that they cannot handle trips of this sort on their own. One thing we keep forgetting is that this girl, responsible, well-intentioned, and sweet as is,went on a senior trip to ARUBA. I seriously doubt they were going there to take in the educational aspects of a foreign country, experience the culture, or learn about Aruba. Let's face it: they chose Aruba because it's an exotic, sexy place where the legal drinking age is 18. Almost the entire senior class went, though it was not officially school sponsored. The kids chose the chaperones they wanted to attend with them: four cool teachers. Three of them brought spouses. All of them had their trips paid for by the parents of the students. I know one of those chaperones, and he couldn't feel worse about what happened. He was back at the hotel at the time that it happened, thinking that the kids would all turn in earlier than usual that night since they had a flight home ahead of them. When they awoke the morning of the flight home, everyone thought Natalee was with someone else. It wasn't like they forgot her, hid her, or just miscounted the kids. This group of friends thought she was with that group of friends, and in the end she wasn't with any of them. The car she got in with the 3 locals was with 3 locals who'd been hanging out with them virtually all week long. She didn't REALLY know them, but in her 18-year old mind, they weren't strangers, either. This may not have been the first time that week someone rode in the car with those guys either. If it turned out okay the first few times, they probably thought nothing of it by the last night they were there.

Furthermore, Aruba had a hard time knowing what to do once she was reported missing. They aren't used to these types of crimes like we are. They don't have Amber Alerts and organized forces who know exactly how to handle a missing persons case from the get-go. In this arena, they are largely underdeveloped. Another reason why this may have beena poor choice for a destination for a bunch of reckless 18 year olds.

Now don't get me wrong. I think what happened was not just a tragic accident, but rather an accident waiting to happen. Her parents allowed her to go out of the country with minimal (at best) supervision. Sure, kids go off to college and live on their own unsupervised. But they are at least in a country they understand, in a more real-world environment they know a little better than one where pary and celebration and let-it-all-go-for-a-week are the rule of thumb. The chaperones had no plan of action for real emergencies. Most had never even been on a trip like this before, and most, including my friend, are incredibly naive about what kids this age are into. And, believe me, in that seemingly perfect little suburb, they are "into" a lot.

I think the bottom line is that we do have to teach our children, from a young age, what it means to be responsible. But we also have to set limits for them so that they aren't put in positions that they simply cannot handle. What each child can handle differs greatly from person to person, regardless of their parents. I know many people who have two children who are polar opposites when it comes to responsibility and decision making.

We can only do the best we can do, and I am sure Natalee's parents have done the best they can. But we can also learn from each other's mistakes. In my opinion, there were several huge mistakes in this case, on the part of her parents, the chaperones, and the other students, which together were a recipe for disaster. Let's just learn from this and hope--pray--our own children learn better judgement and make better decisions and stay out of harm's way. We have to model those traits first, though. It starts with us.

bamakelly, thank you, thank you, thank you, for saying what I was thinking. Well done.

Yes, to all the duh's above.

And yes, there is a hard dichotomy. And it may seem terribly, terribly judgmental and harsh. Of course, I feel for her parents and all the crying parents that I see in my job. And I have walked a 100,000 miles in a parent's and in a grandparent's shoes. It's never easy. To some it may feel easy and natural, but it has never felt that way to me. You have a job. And it is NOT to make your child happy. Your job is to give your child the gift to survive and find his/her own happiness coupled with self-worth and a value system which makes them an excellent healthy (mentally and physically) contributing citizen of their community.

It's amazing how many good people are parenting out there and don't understand or even want to comprehend the difference.

You are not your child's friend, you are their parent. It's a far deeper role, and more important role.

Of course, most of us have had a child go wrong or make wrong choices. Blame, after the fact, means little. Consequences before the fact makes a difference, and means a lot. Maybe even a LIFE to be lived itself.

But you do drastically change the "odds" when you role model and demand a work ethic, values/choices for people over things, time for others- not self activities, and consequences in possessions and use of them from all of the above. It is not easy, and it not for everyone to be a parent.

And just because you can afford to give them help for college or whatever material things they need to achieve, does not mean you MUST. Every kid is different, and some need to work physically first or maybe always- sorry!

Also those that chose not to parent should not be stigmatized for it. Believe me, they pay for all the mistakes as well. And sometimes not only with their tax dollar, but with their surrounding crime rate too.

OMG, this thread has turned cruel. I totally agree with Karens and Orcas, and think some of you have gone off the deep end.

As a frequent school chaperone, I will tell you that short of placing a piece of tape on the door so you can see in the morning if the "seal" was broken, there is no possible way to keep track of what each and every child is doing post curfew. My daughter has had a trip roommate who left the room for about an hour every night around midnight, presumably to drink or smoke. Another chaperone discovered a couple freshman at the hotel pool after it was supposedly closed. How in the world can you enforce personal responsibility on a class trip?

My kids' school searches all bags/suitcases before they leave for senior trip (to DW). I find this outrageous, and can't imagine that any kid who wants to drink, or get into some kind of trouble, wouldn't find a way, regardless of whether his bags were searched prior to leaving. As described above, kids can sneak out of a hotel room if highly motivated.

Placing "blame" on a chaperone or parent is pretty far-fetched, and I'd go so far as to say that "blame" placed on the victim is pretty useless as well. It's the luck of the draw that more kids don't suffer greater consequences for stupid, immature actions. Thankfully, most get an opportunity to learn from their mistakes.

As a parent, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

To those that accused me of not having kids (I don;t - but have helped raise my beau's two daughters - who are both very mature, inteliigent, focussed young women despite the idiocy of their nutball mother and her neer do well toyboy husband) or of blamng parents for everything.

In fact - yes - parents have to accept a huge responsability. there are certain things not in your control (specfic diseases or mental problems or proneness to addiciton) but most kids problems don;t fall into this category.

IMHO most problems are the result of the parent's inability to understand that their job is to prepare their kids for real life - not cocoon and protect them - but teach them the skills they need to survive in the real world. And an 18 year old who would behave this way - this is the life equivalent of a high school graduate who can;t read. It is a massive failure on the parents part. Wether due to their lack of intrerest or their incompetence or their own naivete really doesn;t matter.

The problem is not that they weren;t "strict" enough and let her go - the problem is that she was - at 18 - way too immature to be left alone - and that is their failure.

IMHO all kids need jobs - from the age of 13/14 on even if just babysitting or mowing lawns - so they start to leran some hard lessons about real life. It helps them mature tremendously - and makes the rest of their life much easier. Then perhaps we wouldn;t have so many 18 yers olds without the sense of a 10 year old - or 25/6 year olds who behave like adolescents.

nytraveler, I hope you are talking to the police in Aruba as you apparently have intimate knowledge of the circumstances of this girl's disappearance. And also, if they catch the guys who did it (assuming that guys did do "it"), I hope you will be ready to testify for the defense, as it is so clear that the blame lies with bad parenting and bad judgment.

Just did some more looking on the internet on this. The two men who are being held are not the three men who took the girl from the bar. These three men say they dropped the girl off at her hotel. It is unclear if there is any connection between the two groups of men, at this point. The two men being held worked as security guards in a hotel that was closed next door to her hotel. This may have been a crime of opportunity, as are many crimes, and let us hope that we are never the victims of such crimes (and, if we are, that we are not blamed for having brought it on! Or our parents, ohmygosh!)

My 16 year old son is in New York right now with his high school choir (the students range in age from 15-19). The rules were made crystal clear before they left and the kids were welcome to back out if they found the rules too restrictive. Drug sniffing dogs were at the buses as they loaded up for the drive to the airport--fine with me. The kids' hotel room doors DO have tape across them after curfew each night--fine with me. They are not--under any circumstances--to leave the hotel after 'coming home' each night, except with one of the chaperones--fine with me. Even though it may not sound like it, the choir director is treating them like responsible young adults on this trip--they have free time to shop, etc. in various parts of New York (ALWAYS with the buddy system), for example, but with years of experience, I think she's trying to remove any temptation that would spoil the trip for any one teen, and consequently, the rest of the group. I have the highest amount of respect and trust for my son--he's an awesome young man--but he is a teenager and they sometimes do dumb things for no good and apparent reason! I remember a few instances of my own way back when...

My heart aches for the family of Natalee Holloway--our kids sometimes think they're invincible, no matter how much we lecture, advise or otherwise try to pound it into their heads that it's a big, bad world out there. Any parent of teens knows what I'm talking about, which is why, with two teenagers in our house, frequent touch-ups with L'Oreal have become the norm for this mom.

bamakelly...great post. You were able to touch on areas that others, particularly those without high school age kids might not understand.

As far as the girl in Aruba, that is simply every parent's worst nightmare. Every parent does their best to parent their kids in the way that seems right to them. No matter how they raised her, they did not deserve this outcome. And neither did she.

nytrav:

To me you don't have to have offspring to have an opinion on 18 yr olds, we were all once 18 and have experienced that age. At 19 I was living 220 miles from my hometown working for the FBI and living in D.C. Couldn't just go over to mommy's house whenever I wanted to and had to cope with the big bad world out there and getting by with my own money and luck. Great experience.

Again, nobody in life is guaranteed an easy road. A female my age (40) could get abducted no matter how safe I am in a new area. I see many times how even married couples go on vacation and are still missing - it happens to everyone. Life is just one big crap shoot and most of us are still around due to luck.

bamakelly, excellent post.

Orcas, the hotels on either side of the Occidental Allegro are the almost brand new Radisson and the Hyatt on the other side. Neither would be closed and the next hotels on either side of them would be quite a ways away from the Allegro. I wonder what their actual location was?

I think we are all kind of on the same side of the fence here, just approaching it in different ways.

Orcas -

Obviously I don;t know all the details of this story. None of us here does. But the outline is perfectly clear. This young woman was not kidnapped by force or at gunpoint. She was not stolen out of her hotel room. she was not innocently walking home and pulled into a dark alley.

She voluntarily got into a car and drove away with 3 strange men. And I stand by my point - for an 18 year old to think this is a safe thing to do shows an incredible lack of maturity (for even a 10 year old to do would show an incredible lack of maturity) and life experience.

It was her parents job to see that she knew better than this - just as it was their job to see she went to school and learned what she needs to know. They are no less responsible than if they allowed her to graduate high school without beng able to read.

Lots of people have said - teenagers are so immature - they'll do anything - they don;t kow any better. And it's true - teenagers who have no life experience are like that. It's true some people make better judgements than others - they never really do grow up. But teenagers that have more life experience are much less like that - and make fewer bad judgements. And sadly - many teenagers have to be pushed and proded to get this experience - which is the job of their parents.

Apparently these parents made no effort to give their "child" any life experience - or if they did try were remarkably unsuccesful. And that's why I lay this situation at their door - if they knew she was so immature they should not have financed the trip. And - if they didn;t know she was so immature - where have they been all these years?

Two essentials to raising kids - good parenting and good luck - unfortunately, we can't control the latter. All of us who have raised kids can think of multiple nightmares that either did occur or might have occurred because of the luck part of the equation.

nytraveler wrote:
"But the outline is perfectly clear. This young woman was not kidnapped by force or at gunpoint. She was not stolen out of her hotel room. she was not innocently walking home and pulled into a dark alley.

She voluntarily got into a car and drove away with 3 strange men."

Yeah, but you left out the part where the three men returned her to her hotel, and the two men who were arrrested were security guards working nearby. Also left out the part about the group partying with these three locals for the entire preceeding week.

Hey, anything to make your point, right?

The REST of the story:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in700050.shtml

bamakelly - I appreciate hearing your insights. There's a lot we don't know about this case yet.

nytraveler - are you telling us that at 18 or 20 you never made inappropriate decisions? If you did - could you tell us where your parents went wrong?

And, I assume, that after you helped your boyfriend raise his kids, that these kids have never made a questionable choice?

I suspected you did not have kids, b/c raising kids teaches you a lot about humility and never saying "I would never.." Perhaps you can also tell us how you helped teach your boyfriend's kids about compassion and being non-judgmental. (I can't help but cringe when I read the description of their mother. Remember, your boyfriend married her, and had several kids with her, right? Should we judge HIM on his choices?)

While I agree that I think many parents are too lenient with their kids, I try not to judge. My husband's parents were extremely permissive (to the point of almost being negligent, I believe), but he turned to be a responsible, hard-working, moral person. His brother's a doctor with 2 kids, so his parents must have done something right.