Bokhara, spinal fluid leaks? Good idea.

Scarlett - yes, that's what my cousin's problem is.

Always enjoy your posts, BTW :)

Get the dude off the road. How would you feel if he killed someone and you hadn't taken action to prevent him from driving even though you know he's impaired? You don't have to confront him directly. Ask for help from his MD.

Vickib2: . Here's what I can offer. If you want more let me know and I can email you addt'l info. I work with the elderly/gerontology/assisting families with downsizing/driving concerns/living situations so here's some good sources for you that I hope will help:

Good sources for pamphlets and booklets that will help you assess whether or not they need to be assessed regarding their driving -
AAA and AARP (and many offer elderly driving assessment courses - with no "recourse" - they can't take their license away or report them - this is to encourage them to come - to just have a class and driving session and give them hints to minimalize an elderly persons chances of accidents: such as: backing out of parking space is difficult when older/ neck turning/rotation/etc - so instead always park where you go straight thru to other opening and are facing out - or, if right or left turning is difficult for you, go right, right, rights to avoid the left turn, etc.

Both AAA and AARP have pamphlets, info on their web site, videos, etc.

Also, many hospitals offer a driving assessment program, call and see if one near you does. AND, if you are really concerned after a bit of research, you can enlist the aid of their physician (and there is an entire booklet on this put out by the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration (NHTSA) - which they did with physicians - and a physician can report to the registry that a patients license be revoked OR sometimes they listen to their Dr. if they have a wonderful realtionship with him, which happens to be how we got my mother in law to stop, I called and told the Dr. my concerns, he assessed her next visit, and suggested to her he'd prefer she no longer drive and she listened.

ALSO: check out TheHartford.com - Hartford Financial is a huge leader in elderly insurance/options/driving/etc. - they have an excellent brochure on what to look for, how to assess their capability, how to approach them, little by little hints, etc - the brochure also includes a WONDERFUL Driving Proxy: very similar to a health care proxy, but they appoint someone who they will trust is right when they tell them it is time to give up the keys. - you may start with this and lea dup to the no driving over a 6-12 month period perhaps, at least it will plant the seed w/out immediatley pulling the keys. I love all their booklets and pamphlets. Many done in conjunction with MIT

Also for excellent articles:
safeaging.org - www.iii.org - todaysseniornetwork.com -
ocfamily.comm (and there was a wonderful archive article from Sept 05 on the Sandwich Generation and assessing our elderly parents/driving/etc
DOT (US Dept of Transporation) MANY free booklets
NHTSA - (National Highways Traffic and Safety Adminisration) - web sites.

Actually, the elderly do not have more accidents than any other group like many think - they have more fatalities (to themselves, not others) but this is more likely b/c of their frailty in recovering from an accident.

A high percentage of elderly are very cautious on their own/ they won't drive at night, they won't go on the highway, or in bad weather, and there is even more they can learn about cutting their chances - and just always remember, how hard will it be to lose your last independent means? they are thinking, we will be dependent on others just to go to the store - this is a real concern for the elderly. what are the other options in their area?

There are also things you can do to their cars to make them safer and help with mobility.

American Society of Aging is also a useful organization.

One reason the research and info on this seems to be everywhere is b/c the boomers, are entering the "elderly population" this year and our elderly population will be the largest ever and driving, social security, health care, is all going to be stressed to the max over the next 15 years. THis is why there is so much research being done on alternate housing/transporation/etc because the numbers are going thru the roof and our birth rate declined and we need to figure this all out within the decade or less.

You also need to remember, work slowly and gently with the elderly. THey have likely already lost much - their health, some of their independence - energy - so it is understandable they may feel all anyone wants to do is take things away from me....

And, many elderly also feel, I would rather go in my sleep or be gone before I hit the floor, but I'm going to go moving and stepping out until my last breath - so I wouldn't worry about the air travel, etc - the driving can be a definite issue, but research a bit and I don't think you will be quite so anxious.

Yes, sometimes their foot slips on the brake, but in reality it is still the teens that have the worse record all around.

Also, start looking into what alternate transportation is available in their area - subway, train, bus - I should also mention your first stop can always be your local Council on Aging or Senior Center to help you find a driving course for them or any other info on transporation in their area.

So look at some of these sites, and if I might suggest, if they are not members of the American Society of Aging, that might be a nice gift. they have a wonderful magazine, special reports, etc and if they receive that info, they may make the decision on their own - but if not, it would be a great thing for you and your hubby to join and you can sign up for their email newsletter which is one of the better ones I get with plenty of info for my clients (which are all elderly).

You are good to even notice, to be concerned, but be concerned and research and be patient and remember - our children are watching how we are with their grandparents - that's where they'll learn how to be with us !!! And, open discussions with your daughter regarding your health care proxy, advanced directives, maybe do a driving proxy yourself with her - and pave the way for your whole family !!

Sometimes the grandkids have a better track record of convincing their grandparents than the adults.

Many men and women have trouble facing their parents mental or physical decline - so the rest of us need to find ways to support and help them as they come to terms with their own emotions through it all.

So, my suggestion is, order some of these free pamplets, brochures, etc - do some reading, share it with your husband and other family members, and some articiles, magazines with the grandparents, and together see if you can begin to address your concerns.

And remember to let them know, your goal is to help them continue to be active, productive, happy - your concern is always their safety and their health so they can continue being as independent as possible for as long as possible.

Good Luck !! Hope some of this helps !

Well, Thank you, Bokhara! :)

I had that problem after the birth of my first child..so I remember the headaches ( who wouldn't !!) .
George Clooney had an accident while filming Syriana and was getting these headaches for months. After a lot of tests, they finally found that his injury was causing spinal fluid to leak .. they did a surgery, he is a new man .. well, same man, no headaches :)

vickib2, I'm glad you noticed my input, at first I didn't think you had read it. I too have frequented those websites, but they are so incredibly frightening. I thought my husband was having bad times, til I read the other stories. I was surprised to find that clusters are NOT migraines. Of course you know about triggers (alcohol and moving from the Florida heat into the A/c in my hubby's case). Have faith - his are gone for now (two years!), and your daughter will get better too!

I never heard about the spinal fluid. Wow. My husband has not had an injury though that I can think of.

Thanks to all Fodorites! I learn so much here.

I recently traveled with my 93 yo grandparents to a wedding. It was a short flight (1.5 hours) so I figured how hard could it be. Answer, much harder than I thought. Security was fun with those two - one is hard of hearing and frail, but in otherwise good health. The other is in the very early stage of dementia. So off went grandma right through security and toward the gate, while Grandpa shuffled through the secondary screening because he couldn't grasp the concept of removing all of his change from his pocket (he must have had $40 in nickels and dimes) and kept setting off the alarm. I'm in the middle, shouting for Grandma who couldn't hear me, and keeping an eye on grandpa who is nervous and a bit put off about the pat down.

Southwest initially would not give us early boarding passes because my grandparents aren't children, and didn't have a disability. They eventually relented when I explained that if we boarded with everyone else, boarding would take an extra 10 minutes because my grandparents top speed is not very speedy. If we ever had to do an emergency exit from the plane, being behind my grandparents would have deadly consequences for someone. They (grandma & grandpa) would probably be trampled.

In flight was ok except for when grandpa was shamelessly flirting with the flight attendant (old habits die hard I guess), and getting off the plane as a group was yet another adventure. Off went grandma, while I tried to help grandpa get his "grip" (his luggage, lol).

Until I flew with them, I really hadn't thought that their age was as much of a limitation as it turned out to be. Once they were away from home and outside of their comfort zone, it was very apparent. This will most likely be their last trip. Grandma told me that it was harder than she thought it would be, and grandpa is getting so confused, it just won't be an option any more.

Your husband and his family need to sit down and discuss this. It is really hard to see, and hard to deal with, but it is their reality now.

kmpordagee,I enjoyed your story immensely, although I'm sure it wasn't funny to you at the time. I can just see Grandma sailing through security and then heading for her gate while Grandpa is still trying to root out that last penny from his pocket.

My mother-in-law sets off the alarm because of the metal in her knees, and she always gets terribly upset that she still must be searched, even though she has a "letter from my doctor" to show. I was not aware until she told me that she actually has to be patted down, and an inspector "puts her hands up between my legs." !!!!

The shooting of the mentally ill man by air marshalls recently was so shocking to me. MIL often has to hurry to the bathroom, and I can see her rushing frantically up the isle. Thank goodness she can hear well and would hear any commands.

I am a white-knuckle flyer and I often have wondered aloud "what do they do when people have anxiety attacks and just HAVE TO GET OFF THE PLANE RIGHT NOW?" And now I know.

Vicki

Escargot, I forgot to say thank you so much for your extensive and thoughtful reply. I am going to print it out and give it to my husband (although he will probably read it and say "what's this got to do with my dad?") My husband's hero has always been his dad and they have always been very close. My FIL was the best man at our wedding.

Bokhara, I do not think my daughter has ever had spinal x-rays! I will double check this, and if not, I will have her add it to the list of "what do you think about this?" suggestions that she shows her doctor.

And Joan, you are right -- cluster headaches are actually not considered to be migraine headaches.

Vicki

Vicki, I totally understand what you are going through. Everything you talked about in your original post (minus the part about flying on a plane) could have pertained to my parents.

It is upsetting and frustrating on many different levels. Especially if you are the only person that lives near them. If something does happen, you (or in your case your husband) will be the person to take care of everything!

You worry about them and care. You don't want them to sit home and never do anything. Yet, you can obviously see the dangers of traveling around with all those illnesses and disabilities. And add to the mix that you will probably be the one to take care of them!

I don't want my parents to just sit home, but sometimes their actions affect me on a big scale. There are decisions they can make to make things easier for everyone concerned, without totally taking away their own freedom.

I won't bore you with all the reasons and their illnesses, etc., but one example is that my parents should NOT leave the house when it's icy outside. But they do. If my mother broke her hip, she could NOT have surgery. I say take a cab on a day like that, and when you call ask the driver to come to the door and help you. Throw him a few extra bucks.

Believe me, she could afford it. (I know, because shen she spent four months in ICU and my father couldn't do a thing for himself, I took care of her banking, etc.)

Some people gave you really good advice. Some people have never been in this position so cannot fully understand where you're coming from....
armchair quarterbacks!

I have recently thrown my hands up in the air and said "To hell with it."

Good luck to you...

Oh, and I would check with a chiropractor or accupuncturist for your daughter's headaches!

Oh Buffalogirl, I could have written your post.

I've read this entire thing twice.

You have no idea the things I have tried to discuss and accomplish with my siblings AND my parents. MY hands are up in the air, as well.

I even had a handicapped accessible house ready for them to move in to if they choose that option. But they chose to not chose and they are STUBBORN.

kmpoudagee's story is similar to every venture we undertake. I missed my daughter's graduation from college because I was trying to get my mother into a bathroom she could access. And that was just a minor problem that day.

She's been in a wheelchair for 17 years and he can't hear. They also are married 60 years ago today, Dec. 15. And they have argued for every single day of it.

"Talk with your siblings". HA-HA. One is a sweetie that lives 100 miles away and wants them where they are, "So that her kids have a heritage to come home to". And it gets more and more complicated than that. And Intrepid, these are people who have to be talked to for months upon end in order for them to have enough trust to put a WILL into words, let alone let someone set up a trust or power of attorney. They don't even trust banks. And they do have their marbles, no dementia anyway, and know what they do NOT want. Change, in a word.

I've been trying to get my father out of the driver's seat for at least 3 years. He just last May passed the yearly tests again, although he has fender benders all the time. After two corneal transplants, he just doesn't have enough depth perception, and I don't care what the county thinks. I'm so scared he is going to take some one else out. One day he showed up at my house with a collapsed Cook County cone and wire caught under his muffler.

They traveled to FL a couple of years ago and no more now. It's just not fair to the exit system, I totally agree. If there was an emergency- it would be like a brick mountain in front of the door. They have accepted that bit, as my mother got so upset at the wheelchair lift, when it stuck, that she felt like she was having a heart attack.

There is a limit, and it doesn't get acknowledged. I'm the bad guy.

Thank you for encouragement, Joan! A river boat tour is on my list as #2!

Watch out for a report hopefully less then a year from now!

JJ5 and others caring for elderly parents, you have my respect and sympathy. It has to be one of the hardest jobs psychologically than any other. I've definitely been there and and am still doing that although my 93 year old mother is no longer living with me. My brother is taking his turn with the major part of her care now, but I'm still doing frequent visits and phone calls every other day. And both of my parents did drive for longer than they should have, but when we managed to talk to them about it, they did stop driving. My father was not too happy about that, but I think my mother was vastly relieved to stop driving.

Saraho, your words meant a lot to me. Thanks. I'm the real "bad guy" for not being in denial like everyone else.

At 86 and 84 they are diminishing before my eyes. The last year has been constant reversals. And they depend upon each other and will not hear of being separated or having home care come in. They even reject air conditioning, for God's sake.

When people make statements about "choices" that they have or elderly parents chose etc. I am so glad for them- but believe me, my choices are small to none in this picture, and anything that would even help them with USE is rejected.

Now my sister is seriously sick as well. I'm exactly like Buffalogirl at this point, I've just raised my hands and surrendered. As my father says,"I don't want to hear it, and the only way I'm leaving here is if they carry me out." So I continue to make the constant trips for the "calls".

With life expectancy increasing and with so many seriously impaired or disabled elders, it becomes very dicey- and is not as clear cut as some may think. Do I have the right to make their minds up for them? I tried to do that and it failed. But I can not break my connection regardless, just because they are going out their own way instead of mine.

Considering the ages, I was wondering if there were GRANDchildren who could be enlisted to help out? Maybe some with time off from school or between jobs.

Maybe your inlaws could be convined that "Johnny needs practice driving before he goes off to college" or some similar excuse so that your FIL can bow out of driving graciously without having to admit having reduced skills.

Each time I read something like this thread I think it should serve a wakeup call to all of us. We've built up a nation <b>so</b> dependent on the private car that other than driving oneself and flying there are few other choices. Listen to almost any talk-radio station and there are plenty of callers who would revoke the licenses of any driver over 40 who has a crash.

The time is here do develop better transportation systems to serve US in our later years; better bus, rail, shuttles, and walking facilities. Better community planning that doesn't require a car to do every errand. Vicki, you seem a very caring daughter (inlaw).

JJ5 you are not the bad guy, even though others might perceive you that way - you are in fact, the good guy. I was the &quot;bad guy&quot; 3 times in the past five yrs - with my aunt, my mother and my mohter-in-law - the family just didn't get it or didn't want to bother and I know how hard it is to do w/out that support.

Now, no one else &quot;gets&quot; what's happening with my father in law - can't keep his bills straight, things getting shut off, he forgets to pay or forgets what is taken out directly from his account and pays twice - and no one wants to help me talk to them about ways we could make it easier for him w/out taking away his pride - I get answers from some of them like &quot; well, when he talks to me about it I'll discuss it with him then, but I'm not interfering.&quot; Really?

Guess what - he isn't going to talk to you about it.
Pride, idnependences, stubborness, whatever.
The worse for me was when I had to place my motehr in a 24 hr facility and even her friends would make comments to me relative to they couldn't believe we'd done that - and my mothers dementia was so severe it was like wiating for a terrible accident to happen, and then they would have been blaming that on me for not acting before.

No good deed goes unpunished, as my grannie used to say. Do the best you can, and know that you are doing the right thing by caring about them at all and trying what you can.

My father in law insists he is not leaving his house. It is his &quot;toe tag&quot; house - what a terrible saying!!
And it might well be b/c he isn't going to listen to a daughter in law over his own kids.....I do what I can and realize much is out of my hands. I pass along articles and info to them and that is that.

As far as airlines - be insistent - lie if you must that they are more disabled than they are to get the quick check thru, wheelchair, first boarding, etc -
how inconsiderate many are of the elderly it never ceases to me -

Everyone try and enjoy Christmas - and I wish patience for us all - that will be us someday !

Thanks, escargot. A good word means a lot.

My parents' grandchildren are in their late 20's and 30's and busy raising families of their own or just starting to beg college money and live 100 miles away. They do help shovel/clean out gutters- and then EAT over there and leave. My Dad doesn't even like the company, says it's too much commotion and that they are all spoiled brats. To him, they are- he worked his a-- off his whole life.

It's just as escargot says, it's the independence thing. Some people have great strength of spirit and will not be dependent. But you really do get sick of being the bad guy, although I have been so long now that I must say it bothers me less all the time.

This will never happen between my kids and I- as I am open to change. I've had no choice and now it is my inclination as well.

But many elder seniors do not want to go into assisted care- and forcing them is no piece of cake for anyone.

And regardless of the seasick thing, cruises are terrific for seniors.

I read a review of a person with extreme health problems who used Princess as his assisted living for 9 months of the year. You do know that the costs are almost the same.

And you can overcome the seasick thing. If I can, anyone can. Bonine works, even for the senior whose on other medications or the ship's doctor can give them the &quot;shot&quot;.

I was in a short gale and didn't get sick with Bonine.

After my brothers and I looked after my parents long distance for close to ten years and then I had my mother stay with us for two years ( she fell and broke hr hip ten days after she came), my husband and I got long term care insurance, so hopefully our children won't have to do what we did.

And yes, I was definitely the bad guy when it finally became too dificult for me to look after my mother at home. Even though everybody else wanted me to continue doing so, I really couldn't any more. My husband and I took my mother out to dinner and told her that my brothers and I had decided that it would be a good idea for her to live in an assisted living center near my older brother's house ( also near niece and great grandchildren). She was a very good sport about it, but of course, I still feel somewhat guilty about it. But it has worked out well, although there are still dificult times to handle.

JJ5, you do need to take care of yourself, too. All this takes quite a toll on the care-taking relative.

That's why I like to have fun. I need to work and nurture too many hours. So the few I have left, better be good.

:D