<I>I'm talking about what happens when you fail to honor cultural norms, not about what is or is not considered rude (although that it sometimes an issue). </I>

And you have, what, one tenuous and poorly supported example of "what happens?"

<I>And BTW, I visited South Korea in May 2014.</I>

Cool.

<I>I asked, "I thought tipping was not expected in South Korea?" The young man behind the counter turned a VERY deep shade of red as he took that jar away and muttered something about people having asked for a place to leave their tips. It made me very sad.</I>

Just so we are clear, you went out of your way to basically challenge someone over a tip jar based upon your knowledge gleaned from your visit? Seriously? Did you ever consider that the guy turned a deep shade of red because he had some douchebag asking him to justify his tip jar?

Honestly, your story made me sad too. You apparently already know the norms in every country everywhere on earth, so why did you have to embarrass the guy? Just so you are clear, tipping isn't normal in Korea, it is awkward, but it isn't the faux pas it is in Japan.

<I>Tipping was not normal in Australia either, I think it has become more so now in the larger cities, but we don't do it when we travel there. </I>

Time moves on. I am quite comfortable stating that tipping is, at a minimum, not abnormal in Australia.

"The young man behind the counter turned a VERY deep shade of red as he took that jar away and muttered something about people having asked for a place to leave their tips. It made me very sad."

Yes, that IS sad, but not for the reason you might suggest. I think it's sad that an outsider with no stake in the whole process caused an employee who had put out the jar on the request of tourists who wanted to offer bonuses for them doing a good job to take that jar away in embarrassment. It's nice that you like visiting quaint, naive, living-in-the-past countries. But not so nice that you seem to think it's your duty to try to keep those people in the last century as tipping becomes more and more an international norm. It seems their quaint customs were more important to YOU than they were to THEM. Now THAT is sad.

I'm assuming you also find it sad when you see the local bakery in a remote village install a modern oven, or turn to big electric mixers, destroying that quaint picture taking opportunity of them mixing ingredients in a huge bowl? But the world moves on and is not beholding to you to cling to the past in order to provide you a quaint travel experience.

So, the bizarre American system, under which a dish that is really priced in the restaurant owner's mind at $40 is instead advertised at, say, $31, not to mention the apparently associated idea that the best way to say thank you is with money, is somehow on a par with electricity and running water? I don't think so. Talk about cultural arrogance.

However, the Chinese, much more numerous than the Americans, and known to refer to tipping as the "stupid foreigner tax", are poised to enter the international tourist market. It will be interesting to see what happens. (And before someone mentions the millions of Chinese living in rural poverty I would note that the middle class in China is growing, while the American is shrinking.)

I do wonder whether this insistence on giving money to people is some kind of colonial Lady of the Manor complex....

<i>I was appalled to see a tip jar at a coffee bar frequented by Westerners in those last few days, where there had been none just a few weeks before. I asked, "I thought tipping was not expected in South Korea?" The young man behind the counter turned a VERY deep shade of red as he took that jar away and muttered something about people having asked for a place to leave their tips. It made me very sad.</i>

I think your comments would have been better directed at someone actually leaving the tip rather than shaming the employee.

Jeeesh, I didn't CONFRONT the man -- I asked him a simple, polite question and did so with no intention of embarrassing or shaming him. We went on to have a very pleasant conversation.

"Jeeesh, I didn't CONFRONT the man -- I asked him a simple, polite question and did so with no intention of embarrassing or shaming him."

OK, I guess I misinterpreted when you said "The young man behind the counter turned a VERY deep shade of red as he took that jar away and muttered something about people having asked for a place to leave their tips." Maybe you didn't intend to embarrass him, but the "VERY deep shade of red" indicates you did indeed do so.

You left your subsequent friendly conversation out of the original story. And I didn't characterize your comments as a CONFRONTATION.

Even if it was conveyed as a polite inquiry you called into question to him the legitimacy of the jar being on the counter. If he turned a very deep shade of red, you made him feel ashamed. IMO, not cool. Better directed at the people who're unaware of the the local convention for not tipping. Or a discreet comment to the owner of the shop. Glad you ended up buds with the counter guy.

I agree with you. Tip or not in accordance with local norms.

thursdaysd:
<So, the bizarre American system, under which a dish that is really priced in the restaurant owner's mind at $40 is instead advertised at, say, $31, not to mention the apparently associated idea that the best way to say thank you is with money, is somehow on a par with electricity and running water? I don't think so. Talk about cultural arrogance.>

First of all, the best way to say thank you to strangers who provided you a service IS MONEY. What would you prefer, a kiss? A thoughtful gift? I'll stick with money, thanks.

And the cultural arrogance is yours, I'm afraid, if you are advocating coming to the US but refusing to follow American tipping customs. No one is saying our system of tipping is the best in the world, but I repeat, that is no excuse for not tipping properly when you are here.

"So, the bizarre American system, under which a dish that is really priced in the restaurant owner's mind at $40 is instead advertised at, say, $31, not to mention the apparently associated idea that the best way to say thank you is with money, is somehow on a par with electricity and running water? I don't think so. Talk about cultural arrogance"

There's far too much common sense in that post, I've triangled it as being against the spirit of Fodors tipping threads.

"First of all, the best way to say thank you to strangers who provided you a service IS MONEY"

Is in itself a really sad culture.

Newbe why do you have to say thank you with money, isn't saying the word enough. The employees are just doing their job get paid at least minimum wage, most likely more than that, get 20 days annual leave (well in NZ anyway) are entitled to sick leave and 11 days statutory holidays with an extra day off if they happen to work a stat day. Of course workers will accept money if it is offered to them, but they are just doing their job the same as everyone else.

What about cow tipping?

The old cliche is true, thank you doesn't pay the bills.
________________

"First of all, the best way to say thank you to strangers who provided you a service IS MONEY"

Is in itself a really sad culture.
____

How sad was your paycheck?

"And the cultural arrogance is yours, I'm afraid, if you are advocating coming to the US but refusing to follow American tipping customs. No one is saying our system of tipping is the best in the world, but I repeat, that is no excuse for not tipping properly when you are here."

False target. I have never advocated that.

nelsonian, I am discussing the American system, where servers do not get paid a living wage and depend on tips for 90% of their income. Nor do they get annual leave, sick leave, or paid holidays. People in the US know this and tip accordingly, because the tip is part of the cost of the meal, really; we do not consider it optional. Tips are not only for extraordinarily good service, they are for service, period.

Once again: I do not defend this system. But there is very little chance of its changing any time soon, and it is very well publicized on the Internet and in guidebooks. So I have no patience for people who do not tip properly here, no matter their reasoning. (Well, OK, exceptionally poor service does not deserve a tip.)

Let me say that in most countries it is not expected to give some gift to the desk clerk at a hotel. Yet if someone has received wonderful service or advice and picked up on something the worker likes (maybe a local candy or candle, for example) I see nothing wrong with giving said employee such a gift as a thank you. Just because something isn't a "local custom" including tipping a server, that doesn't mean a person is WRONG to give a little gift when they appreciate service "above and beyond". And if that gift is money, why on earth should it be shunned. I think it's sad when people insist it just isn't proper to do a kind deed.

""And BTW, I visited South Korea in May 2014. I spent several days in Seoul before traveling around the country, and then another few days in Seoul before departing. I was appalled to see a tip jar at a coffee bar frequented by Westerners in those last few days, where there had been none just a few weeks before. I asked, "I thought tipping was not expected in South Korea?" The young man behind the counter turned a VERY deep shade of red as he took that jar away and muttered something about people having asked for a place to leave their tips. It made me very sad.

So I'll say it again: It's simple -- Just tip in accordance with local norms. Period""

It was the local norm for that coffee shop. They had a tip jar out.

The OP is coming to WA and possibly OR, since this post is tagged under OR. Both of these states requires employers to pay workers full state minimum wage before tips, and both states have minimum wages at over $9/hr.

kimjon--Enjoy your time here. The PNW is a very laid back place, so don't let all this get to you please.

""nelsonian, I am discussing the American system, where servers do not get paid a living wage and depend on tips for 90% of their income. Nor do they get annual leave, sick leave, or paid holidays.""

This is the problem.

Service don't make a living wage with tips, they make over a living wage and some make very, very good money.

There isn't a server on the planet that wants this system fixed.

I have plenty of servers that easily make over $1000 Fri-Sunday.

These servers are heads of households, students, professional waiters, actors, reality stars, etc.

Waiting tables and bartending enables them to earn a good living.

They are insured and get vacation days.

Does anyone really think that giving them a pay cut is going to do anything for the industry?

The only people that want to do away with tipping are people who are not restaurant employees.

You can't pay them enough hourly to make up for their tips.

Even breakfast joint waiters walk with $150 a shift.

My husband has had professional, career waiters that make well over $100,000 a year.

I just want to point out that all the chains offer vacation, 401K, and health benefits.

"How sad was your paycheck?"

You've lost me there, not surprisingly.

"My husband has had professional, career waiters that make well over $100,000 a year."

Is simply ridiculous for an unskilled job and encourages me to tip less.