You're just saying that because you think something may eat me. Ciao to all, and be safe. L

Kim, <BR> <BR>I just was able to double check with my husband regarding his source of information and it did come from Orlando hotel execs whom he feels are reliable. The Marriotts that rolled the operations of 3 hotels into one were also in Orlando. That's about all he knows. It's very unsettling news, needless to say, and I spent more hours awake worrying last night, than I did sleeping. <BR> <BR>JanetteAnne, Liz isn't new to the boards. Further, her premise was flawed. I'll be the first to admit to feeling a bit raw these days, but her statement, "I pay wages and I don't feel like helping the Marriot and Hyatt hotels et al meet their wage bills - that should be their responsibility" was fuel on the fire. I suspect our employees are compensated every bit as well as hers, if not better. Approve of it or not, tipping is the norm in this country, especially in upper end establishments where service is expected to be above par. *Everyone* who provides personal service appreciates it, but it will not make or break our housekeepers or bell staff, nor are we asking the public to subsidize their salaries. I gladly tip my hairdresser as well, on top of the $50 he charges for 1/2 hrs worth of cutting and don't begrudge him the tip feeling I'm subsidizing his wages! And you? Do you get your hair cut, thank him/her and leave? <BR> <BR>I do believe I can rightfully take offense at an unjust evaluation of the basis of tipping and believe, seeing as she has worked in this industry *in this country*, that she was well aware of the inaccuracies. <BR> <BR>This topic has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum. There isn't a thing more that I can add that wasn't said a couple of months before. My position is clearly my own but I prefer to follow the accepted norms in this country. Spare me the "why should I pay your wages". You shouldn't and you aren't. It's entirely up to you whether or not you want to tip, just!

oops...that posted before I was ready. Last sentence should read, "just don't use the 'I'm paying your wages' refrain". <BR> <BR>That's it. Finis.

To LizF: <BR>Your egocentrism amazes me. <BR>You are honestly questioning why you should feel an obligation to observe the customs of other countries when you visit? That is THE definition of the UGLY AMERICAN overseas...and it's not a reputation to be proud of. <BR>Are you really serious or are you just trying to be inflammatory? <BR>It goes without saying that YOU ARE obligated, from the standpoint of cultural etiquette, to attempt to adhere to local customs when away from home. YOU are a GUEST and you should behave as such. When you visit a friend's home do you plop down wherever you feel like it and raid the refrigerator at will and use the phone without asking? We're talking common courtesy and respect here. These are not complex principles. <BR>The other part of my point, which you obviously missed, is that your objections, as an individual, to the customs of another country will change NOTHING. Object if it makes you feel proud and powerful. But your jousting at windmills will change nothing, and you will only appear foolish to locals. <BR>Your choice. <BR>

I have to agree with the views expressed by LizF. I'm from Singapore and here tipping is not expected. It is ok to tip if the service is exceptional but it is not expected.Tipping in the US has become an obligation whereas it should be optional dependent on the level of service.I once left a tip at a cafe in Tokyo and the waiter rushed out after me to return my tip. I asked my Japanese colleague why and he said in Japan it is an honour to be of service. My tipping made it embarassing for the waiter. That is the way tipping should be. <BR> <BR>Till today Japanese seldom tip even when overseas. Just as we should learn US tipping culture, US service staff should also learn other cultures from their guests and learn to see service as a gesture first, and extra income, second. <BR> <BR>As for Stash it is ridiculous to tip $20 for 10 bags. Just give him a fiver and he should be happy. We should use our discretion on the quantum.

You can't have it both ways, qui. You recognize the existence of a local tipping policy, as in Singapore and Japan, where it is not practiced, but claim that in the US, where it IS practiced, the practice need NOT be respected. <BR> <BR>Good service is good service, and tipping for it in Japan and some other countries is not only not expected, it is not welcome. This is NOT true in the US, where NOT tipping is considered insulting. Good service remains good service the world round.

Thank you Mary. <BR>You caught that discrepancy in qui's reasoning also. <BR>Qui, you even stated the "we should learn US tipping culture...". <BR>Correct. <BR>In Japan, don't tip. It's not their custom. <BR>In the US, tip, as it is customary....reagardless of where your HOME is, LOCAL customs rule when travelling.

I was in Malaysia and Singapore last year and they do not tip there. They also have lousy service. I would rather get good service and pay a little extra for it. <BR>

I don't think Americans would know the meaning of "good service". Just get in a cab and see what kind of "service" you <BR>would get. <BR>Also does complying with the habits of the country one is travelling in mean that we would have to eat like the majority of Americans? I have never felt so ill as I have after watching the absolute pig eating habits of Americans. Fork in right hand and stab the food...chomp, chomp... urgh! <BR>Take a look at yourselves you are not the epitome of good manners in any respects. Your behaviour overseas leaves a lot to be desired and your "might is right attitude" is sickening. You should be grateful if ANYONE bothers to go to your country for a holiday - value for money it is not.

I agree with LizF and others who say that the Guest should be treated with respect and the host - in this case America - should be happy that someone comes and spends their money there. <BR>I was in China last month and I was not required to eat pigs intestines and all the other interesting things that they eat. They offered me things that would be palatable to Western tastes. I didn't have to go around making that hawking noise couphing up phlem either. <BR>Tipping should be left as an appreciation of good service and not an expectation. I have travelled extensively both in the USA and Europe and the habit of workers in the US in putting out their hand for a tip when all they have done is what is in their job description is appalling. Why would I want or even expect to pay a tip to have my hair cut? Do you people also tip your doctors for giving you an injection? Where is the difference? If there is not a difference where is the rationale? <BR>Flaming people for a different viewpoint is not in the interests of this forum nor the interests of the US travel industry who, it will probably turn out to be, will be begging for people to travel in your country, use your hotels, restaurants etc in the months to come. At least when the workers of these restaurants and hotels have no job left they will have had experience in having their hand out begging for money.

Of course you know that in Europe they add a 15% "service charge"=tip added to your bill. You have to pay this no matter how bad the service is. Different places have different ways of compensation. <BR>What this discussion has to do with Stash's question, I have no idea.

I think you're way confused Emily. <BR>My point all along has been that when travelling abroad, a guest in another country owes the hosts the courtesy and respect of attempting to learn and follow their basic customs. <BR>This has nothing to do with eating hog entrails in China. That is not a custom which, if ignored, will offend locals. However, females travelling in Pakistan, for instance, would be extremely rude to wear a bikini while sauntering down the main street. <BR> <BR>So your point is what, Emily? That when you go abroad you should be free to do as you d*mned well please and to heck with your hosts and their customs and laws? <BR>And who is the UGLY traveller here? <BR>I doubt you are from the UK. Everyone I've ever met when in Britain has been more polite and sensitive to cultural issues than you are.

Put it this way-if the service sucks, I'm not tipping. I don't care if it is the custom of the country. I'm not paying to be treated badly. If it is really bad, I'd leave a penny just to show I did not forget the tip. Having said that service levels in the US are generally quite high and I have always been happy leaving 15% or more.

I think the whole tipping thing is getting out of control. Yesterday I was in a gas station and the cashier had a cup up at the register that said "Tips". Why in the world would I tip a cashier for ringing up my gas? Isn't that their job? Isn't that why they get paid? Where does it end? It started in coffee shops and now people who do nothing more then punch in numbers and have me sign a slip of paper for gas EXPECT a tip? I don't think so! <BR> <BR>I have a scale when I eat out. It starts at 20%. It can decrees from there if the service stinks and occasionaly I have tipped more then my standard for exceptional service. But I have found that service isn't what it used to be. Sometimes I feel like I am ruining someone's day if I ask for extra napkins or a glass of ice. When I decide to spend my money to eat out, I expect it to be a certain way. And I am happy to tip them for it.

Wait staff in the USA earn a sub-minimum wage. The tips "make up" the difference. Even if we all stiff the wait staff, their employers must report around 10% of income in tips. Sucks, you bet. <BR> <BR>Hotel maids are making around $10 an hour plus benefits (Olive mentioned them earlier, better deal than where I work, but I don't have to scrub toilets). <BR> <BR>Olive's hair person earning $100 an hour (two $50 hair cuts per hour plus probably 10% in tips) probably doesn't have to declare the tip he/she makes. With chair rental, stylist is taking home $60 an hour before taxes. I'm starting to think I wasted my time going to graduate school, maybe I should have gone to beauty school instead.

There have been so many replys deleted from this thread since the first 3 noted above that the whole thing makes no sense anymore. I suggest that if Fodor's doesn't like the answers people are giving they should answer the questions themselves. I'm beginning to wonder why answer anything. Will this offensive reply be censored out or will it be left to show how open they are?

When I had my first response (two up from this, unless things have changed) I was number 54 on the list. This response is number 34 on the current numbering sceme. This doesn't include L's and others deleted the first time around.

Emmy: <BR> <BR>I was going to flame you. But, I can't. The post that got me mad isn't there anymore. So let's make up and try to be more polite. Maybe we can discuss the issues and not the personalities. I'll forgive you for the post that's not there anymore if you will forgeive me for the reply I didn't make. Or, of course, we can start all over again? And, see what they delete next.

Go ahead and flame 'trying.' The post for flaming is either a. I should have gone to beauty school instead of graduate school because it looks like hair stylist make more money, or b. randomly deleted posts within a thread. <BR> <BR>If it is for my first post, I am a wonderful tipper to the restaurant staff. I realized their pay base sucks and depend on tips. Maids everywhere deserve tips. Just putting up with people's $%^& is reason enough. <BR> <BR>I would like to tip, but they won't accept, is the reference desk at my local library. Amazing staff that find just about anything on the slimmest of clues. Instead of 'tipping,' I make a 'donation.'

Sorry Emmy: <BR>I can't remember whose on whose side anymore. Or if there were sides. It couldn't have been important anyway. I'm sure that whatever you decide to do will be the right thing. <BR>By the way, I went to graduate school but I've never taken a job that required any college education. I couldn't afford to take the pay cut.