Hi Stu:

Not even knowing the City, I'm sure being close to the Wharf isn't a plus as far as ambience.I would imagine the only plus might be proximity for transit? That being said, I'm banging my head against a wall to get accommodations. I found one B & B, Noe's Nest, that sounded absolutely perfect (for me), but booked, booked, booked. I guess I'm justifying the FW location because I will only be there Friday, Sat, & Sun, checking out on Monday morning, and will view it as a place to sleep. Period. I've never booked trips too far in advance, and it always worked out great for me. This taught me a lesson...

PamSF and Stu - The vrbo is still available on 20th & Guerrero -it is an entire apartment with owner living downstairs, and he says you can find parking on the street. Since I'll have the car for a week, I'll keep it so I have transit to the airport when I leave- is this a better choice than FW? I know it is for ambience, how about convenience of mass transit? I checked with the airlines today and can still actually get a decent r/t even at this somewhat late date...

the vrbo on 20th & Guerrero is far preferable to the place on the wharf, imho. You can navigate with muni. You might have to walk a few blocks but not difficult ones. Google SF Muni and get an idea. Plot 20th and Guerrero with Union Square to get an idea.

If the Apt is between Guerrero & Dolores, then it is 1 1/2 blocks to the J-Church line - which takes you downtown (15 mins) in the north direction (all the way to the Ferry Bldg), or to the Noe Valley in the Southern direction. Mission St is 2 1/2 blocks away where there are lots of buses & even BART. Consider dumping the car & taking BART to the airport - BART stations are on 16th & 24th, so it is 2 1/2 blocks to Mission plus 4 blocks on Mission from 20th. There is also the 33 line which will take you west to the Haight and also to GG Park. Parking is difficult in the Dolores Park area, and there is probably a 2 hr restriction on parking on Friday & Monday during the work period. Parking is difficult in the Wharf area also.

I don't think the Wharf has that much greater transportation possibilities. A lot depends on where you want to go. The best location for transportation is on/close to Market St between the Ferry Bldg & Powell. I don't consider the Cable Car to be a practical way to get around in The City - fun, but not fast. From the Wharf, there is a trolly that gets you to the Ferry Bldg & then I think down Market. Several lines run south on Van Ness.

A lot depends on what you want to do & see while in The City. If you want to visit North Beach, Alcatraz, Downtown/Union Square, Embarcadero, Ferry Bldg, Union St, bike across the GG Bridge & visit Crissy Field & Ft Point along the way - then you won't even need public transportation - you can walk/bike to all these areas from the Wharf. If you want to get out into a neignborhood, visit the Haight, GG Park, Noe Valley, etc - then perhaps Dolores Park is a better option.

For only 3 nights, I'm not sure it really makes a big difference where you stay. I would not want to spend a week near the Wharf, but 3 nights would work fine.

We frequently travel to Paris - staying in different apartments. I always figure out places I might visit, and then get the Paris Metro & bus map & determine which Apt has the better transportation options. I'm sure that the SF Muni map is on-line - so you might figure out public transportation options for the Wharf vs Dolores Park.

Stu Dudley

Susie~I understood all rental options were exhausted and that's how you ended up considering the place near the wharf. If you are only staying for three nights, I agree with Stu on this.

can you believe that now even the FW place is unavailable! Geez...

Ok - here is my update: The bad news and the good news. The bad news is that I am postponing the trip. The good news is that the following week, unbelievably to me, mostly everything opens up. So, as long as I can rearrange the Healdsburg part of the trip, it seems like I can get anything from a B & B in the Noe Valley to a nice hotel in Union Square. For instance, the Parc 55, which someone recommended was in the area of $400 a night for the nights I was looking for, and if I go the following week, SAME ROOM for $160! That amazes me.

So, I promise, this is the last time I'll ask (because I am committed to cement this by noon tomorrow), for the 3 or 4 days/nights in SF, B&B on Guerrero between 24th & 25th, or a nice hotel in Union Square? (Although one of the innkeepers in Healdsburg told me to stay in Sausalito!)

I await your knowledgeable recommendation...

First of all, Guerrero between 24th & 25th is not in the Noe Valley - even though it's listed in the Noe Valley Voice. And it is a very steep ascent up a hill to Dolores, which is the east end of the Noe Valley.

Here are the places in the Noe Valley Voice - in approximate order of "ideal location"

Hidden Cottage. I think they have a main house on Noe St & another on Elizabeth.
Cook's Quarters
Summer/Island/Cecelia
Vicksburg
Dolores Place
Garden Cottage

There are a few others in the Noe Valley Voice, but they are not as well located as the ones above.

Noe Valley vs. Union Square. This is an apples & oranges comparison.

The Noe valley is a interesting/cute/active residential area where real San Franciscans live. Lots of local restaurants/cafes/shops (no chains - except a Starbucks, Radio Shack, & banks). High percentage if single family residences and many only 1 story tall (garages underneath the house). Many Victorian houses. You'll feel like you are really living in San Francisco if you stay there. You may not want to leave. I've never had trouble finding a place to park the car - for free (done this hundreds of times - maybe over a thousand). Restricted parking is creeping in - but you can still find a place to park close to your B&B. Don't know about the Guerrero location, however.

Union Square is just the opposite. Mostly hotels & shops (many chains like you have at home), more elegant restaurants, large buildings (many greater than 20 stories tall), not too many people living there, and a couple of blocks west is not a nice area to wander in. Good transportation hub, and close to first-timer tourist attractions. You can park easily - if you're willing to pay $40 to $50 a night. Don't know if that allows for "in & out" priviledges (never stayed in a hotel downtown more than 1 night).

Stu Dudley

It looks like Union Square will be it for this trip. Although I will take a trip to the Noe Valley for dinner one evening - any restaurant recommendations?

I have holds on Parc 55, Westin St. Francis or Westin Market Street - any insight? Reading reviews on Trip Advisor can be frightening. One person raves about a hotel, the other makes it sound like a hell hole.

My two favorite restaurants in the Noe Valley:

Incanto - Italian but not North Beach red sauce type. Reserve several days ahead. They have unusual offerings. Check their web site to make sure there is something you like. For example, two of my favorites are pasta with shaved cured Tuna Hearts as appetizer. Other favorite is roast Lamb neck in a wonderful sauce. Fantastic Italian wine list. Get a flight of reds or whites to find one you like. They will make up any flight (4-5 small sips of wine) that you want - mixed red & white or all 1 color. Nice Ambience. It is on Church St. Take the underground Muni Metro J-Church from Powell, sit on the east side of the car (which will be the side you enter on), sit on a seat facing backwards. As you exit the underground portion of the line, you will shortly go past Dolores Park. At the far end of Dolores Park there is a very nice view of downtown if you are looking slightly backwards (that's why I suggested taking a backwards seat). Ticket is $2, and your "receipt" will allow you to return downtown for free - within 1 1/2 hrs (but they really won't check if you just flash the receipt in front of them and you are close to 1 1/2 hrs). Get off the J-Church at 27th & continue walking 1 block south to Duncan. Incanto is on the corner.

Firefly - Calif Cuisine. Very popular place. Reserve ahead. Order the Scallop potstickers as an appetizer. Take the J-Church - sam as above - but get off on 24th st. You'll walk west on 24th st towards the big towner on top of Twin Peaks. 24th St is the main shopping street in the Noe Valley. I would walk to the restaurant on the south side of the street - which has more interesting shops. Continue walking west past Castro St and about a half block past Castro the shops will diminish - except for a cluster around 24th & Diamond. Continue another block down 24th st to Douglass. Look across 24th st and you'll see Firefly - there is a lighted firefly outside the restaurant. It's 2 stores in from the corner of 24th & Douglass - west of the corner. You will walk 5 blocks from Church to Douglass (there are some half-blocks. BTW, the J-Church will stop between 24th & Elizabeth. I think one of the B&Bs you were considering is on Elizabeth, on that first block past Church. This is a very charming section of Elizabeth.

Both Firefly & Incanto have very nice low-key bars, where it would be fun to dine if you are a single.

We are dining at Pomello in the Noe Valley tonight. Very inexpensive. Eclectic food. Red Snapper tacos as an appetizer. Buckwheat noodles with roasted tofu for my wife. Skirt steak with avacado, plantains, beans for me. Once a month (usually mid-month) they have paella on the menu for Fri, Sat, Sun - order it if you see it as the special. Simple ambience - the kind of place we liked to dine at when we first moved to The City in '75. No reservations. Good place for Sunday Brunch.

Stu Dudley

http://www.fireflyrestaurant.com/

http://www.incanto.biz/

If the weather is nice, I would recommend Firefly. Walking down 24th st & back will allow you to enjoy the shops and some residential sections of the Noe Valley. Perhaps have a glass of wine at Le Zinc (btw Noe St & Castro St on 24th) & sit next to the window to watch the world go by.

If the weather is nasty, it is only a half-block from the J-Church stop on 27th to Incanto.

Stu Dudley

Westin St Francis is the only one of the three that is right on the square. Check out MomDD's threads as I think she stayed there as recently as the end of August.

Hi PamSF call me Fodorite impaired, but how do you do that? (Check out MomDD's threads?) Thanks,

Go to the "advanced search" just below the "search the Forums" & click

On the very last criteria box, enter "MomddTravel" & click "search"

You'll get a list of her posts. Click on her name & you should get a more organized list of her travel reports, and then the posts she has responded to.

Stu Dudley

Here's the thread:

http://www.fodors.com/community/unit...z-and-more.cfm

Now that I do have a place booked in Union Square, I can breathe a bit easier, although I still may change it to a B & B in a 'neighborhood'. Which brings me to my next few questions. As I thought thru this more, is there a reason I would want to be in the Union Square area in the evening, as opposed to coming back into one of the other areas (Mission, Noe Valley, or Castro)for dinner, walking around, etc.? I am sure we'll be running around doing the 'tourist thing' during the day, so would most likely be looking to kick back, have a nice dinner, whatever, in the evening. I'm not interested in shopping at the signature stores (Macy's, Nordstroms, etc.) as I have these right here. Kicking around looking in smaller one of a kind boutiques is fun for a while, but really, I'm not a big shopper. I have enough 'stuff'. Also, not interested in going to shows, as again, Broadway is a train ride away for me. So that being said,what advantage is there to staying in the Union Square (is that downtown?) area?

I believe the B & B (Noe's Nest) may still have a vacancy the following week, but Stu, you did say it isn't in the Noe Valley. What section is it in?

My other question is this: On the day we drive back from Healdsburg, we will still have the car. The Fodor or Frommer guide, don't remember which one, talks about 'the 49 mile drive', which they recommend takes the better part of the day. While we have the car, is that something you'd recommend? I'm not setting anything in cement, but just want to have an idea of how to group the sites we'd like to see in an efficient way.

Thanks, thanks, thanks.

P. S. I was also surprised about MomDD's report on the homeless situation, which is always so sad. NY, of course, has a homeless population, but I wouldn't term the behavior of those who are homeless as aggressive in any way.

>>I believe the B & B (Noe's Nest) may still have a vacancy the following week, but Stu, you did say it isn't in the Noe Valley. What section is it in?<<

Dolores Heights, or the Mission - whichever area is the "hottest" with realtors. Actually, it is only 1 block away from the edge of the Noe Valley. The B&B is probably on the east side of Guerrero - the west side is mainly occupied by a school. There is a very high percent of lovely Victorians on the east side. My only reservation is that it is a steep uphill walk to Church St where the J-Church runs and where the Noe Valley starts. No problem at all if you don't mind the climb. That section of Guererro is really nice - although it does get some traffic.

Stu Dudley

What do you think about that 49 mile scenic drive? Do you have any suggestions as to how to best utilize our time in the City?

The 49 scenic drive is fine. I created a drive through the city too - which I think is in the thread I referenced above. Don't just hang out at Union Sq or the Wharf.

Stu Dudley

We've been out there several times now and have stayed in Napa, Healdsburg and Sonoma. Staying in Healdsburg is my #1 favorite, Hotel Healdsburg is a fantastic hotel, truly amazing and connected to the wonderful Dry Creek Kitchen. It IS a bit on the pricey side, but oh so incredible. We also very much enjoyed staying right in the town of Sonoma at Bungalow 313 just off the plaza. We booked there very last minute and stayed in the smallest, cheapest option and it was fabulous. They have lovely kitchenettes and provide great little treats. I would say that by staying in Healdsburg and then in Sonoma you will get a wonderful feel for the area!