Recent New York City restaurant experiences
 

Went to some NYC restaurants not long ago that have been known to show up in guidebooks, and found them to be a mixed lot, with some significant disappointments among them. Details:

--Amy Ruth’s. Got fried chicken and waffles here, which were really good. Leg quarter of chicken was as good as I’ve had down south, with a thin but sufficient coating that was beautifully browned and chicken underneath ideally cooked. Good waffles, perfectly cooked with just the right amount of crispness. With this place and Mamie’s Spoonbread Too, these constitute the best Harlem soul food places I’ve eaten at thus far.

--Sylvia’s. Have seen some grumbles about this place, and sorry to report I’m with the naysayers here. Got a ribs and fried chicken combo with sides. Ribs were overcooked to the point that the meat at the top of the ribs was tough as leather – ribs were covered with a sauce that was really odd, quite sweet with noticeable overtones of lemon and vegetables. Chicken leg quarter was cooked underneath but coating was heavy and leaden. Collards were horribly salty and gumbo was pasty and dull.

--Patsy’s (Harlem, apparently not affiliated with the other Patsy’s locations downtown). A cheese slice was a serious disappointment, very thin crust with remarkably meager sauce and cheese. No there there, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein.

--Totonno’s (uptown Manhattan). Note that the original Coney Island location, allegedly the best of these, is now closed due to a fire. Cheese and sauce were really good, potentially in the same league as John’s and Grimaldi’s, both of which I count as my favorite New York pizza spots. But the pie was utterly ruined because the crust was unbelievably overcooked, to the point where the crust was dark brown and hard with much of the crust’s bottom flat-out burned. It wasn’t the only pizza I saw on surrounding tables that looked this way either, so it’s hard to think this was a mistake. Cook the crust right and this could be a really good pizza.

--EJ’s Luncheonette. Had breakfast here, a place that’s trying hard to be a classic Greek style diner. Coffee was good. A dish of sweet potato and turkey hash was just bizarre, essentially pureed sweet potato with turkey cubes mixed in – am guessing it’s wisest to stick to basics at a spot like this.

--Virgil’s Real BBQ. There were good, bad, and indifferent things about the food here. Pork ribs were actually pretty good despite a few of them being fatty, cooked respectably with a very good dry rub seasoning. Sides of collards and beans were just average, perfectly edible but nothing special. What was not good were the BBQ sauces, both of which came in bottles on the table – mild sauce had no character, hot sauce had a snarly kick but no substance beyond its spiciness.

Thanks for the info. :-)

Patsy's, Totonno's and EJ's are basically neighborhood joints - nothing special. Sylvia's is a tourist trap, imo. Virgil's is near Time Square - as a local, that's says it all to me. I would never recommend these to a visitor. I'm not familiar with Amy Ruth's. How did you come up with this list?

I've been to several New York restaurants over the past number of years. Several of these spots are in Frommer's NYC books and many also appear in Time Out, Lonely Planet, Rough Guide, and the like. Virgil's is in Fodor's.

Patsy's Harlem and Totonno's are NY pizza spots with supposed good reputations (this was the Patsy's from which Frank Sinatra would have frozen pies specially flown into Vegas) and the Totonno's at Coney Island was another legendary pizza spot before it was gutted by a recent fire. Have been to and very much liked John's and Grimaldi's, was lukewarm about Lombardi's, and have not been to DiFara's yet.

Lists of Harlem soul food spots worth a try that I've seen usually include Miss Mamie's Spoonbread and Spoonbread Too, Sylvia's, Charles's Southern Style Kitchen, Amy Ruth's, and Copeland's. Centralparkgirl, your observation about Sylvia's being a tourist trap is something I've seen before, but there are some dissenters out there who like it -- no idea what they ate, but it wasn't what I had, I'm guessing. Amy Ruth's apparently has a specialty in "fill in the blank" and waffles, from what I've read.

Until Dinosaur BBQ moved an outpost into Manhattan, Virgil's was often cited as one of the better NYC spots for 'cue. And their ribs were indeed pretty decent Yankee-style BBQ. They're also convenient to Port Authority, which is useful before a bus ride out of town.

This was a sort of odd selection for New York - which is known neither for soul food nor BBQ.

There are a ton of good pizza places, excellent Italian, French, lost of good asian/fusion places. A couple of good Mexican - but not tex mex - and a broad variety of good places of more exotic cuisines - and the best bagels lox and deli in the country if not the world.

What you did was the equivalent of going to Atlanta and complaining the bagels and nova were no good. Of course not - they're not local specialties - and nobody there knows how to make them properly. (What they call bagels are in fact wonder donuts.)

It's always best to stick to the specialties of the area. And yes, a couple of the places you went to were local coffee shops - the equivalents of a random diner by the side of some highway.

nytraveler said: "What you did was the equivalent of going to Atlanta and complaining the bagels and nova were no good."

Actually, no -- it's not. Several things:

--NY style pizza is indeed something the city is known for. As I clearly said above (did you not read this?), I've been to Grimaldi's and John's and Lombardi's. Loved the first two of these, less the last. Of the six places I reported on, two were pizza places of supposed noteworthy reputation where I hadn't been yet. And I'm sorry, but I was profoundly unimpressed with both despite their reputation. And you very specifically mentioned pizza places above. So play fair already.

--how many threads about Greek diners in NYC have been posted here recently? EJ's is apparently an attempt to buy into that, as is Empire Diner and a few other spots. Clearly in some quarters, this is considered something worthwhile in NYC. I'm unsure about that, myself. I've also been to Veselka, which is a Ukrainian diner, and for my money much more worth going back to. But I didn't happen to go there this time.

--there are sources (Wikipedia mentions this, for one) which say that chicken and waffles was a dish in fact first concocted in Harlem at the Wells Supper Club. Not down south. In Harlem.

--I went to a BBQ joint in Manhattan. So sue me already. Virgil's shows up in Fodor's and Frommer's NYC books as someplace worth going to. It's not like I picked some crappy wanna-be here. And like I've said twice now, the ribs weren't bad.

--I've in fact been to several places that dish up what are considered NYC strengths. Many major deli spots like Katz's, the Carnegie, Stage Deli, Second Avenue Deli, Artie's, Barney Greengrass, and Ben's Kosher Deli (haven't been to Pastrami Queen or Sarge's yet -- another trip). Kossar's Bialys. Russ and Daughter's. Asian spots such as Big Wong King and Mandoo Bar and Sapporo and (sort of) Flor de Mayo. Been there, done those, liked all but Flor de Mayo and Ben's, didn't happen to go to these this time. You think I should clear with you where I go? Sorry, not gonna happen.

Really makes me wonder why I bother.

I like Totonno's amd to me Grimaldi's is hit and miss and John's is good but not in the category of Lombardi's.

The list is growing for NY places that serve whole pies from either wood burning or coal burning. Some of my upscale favorites are Luzzo's and Pizza Fresca while there is the old style of Gruppo.

There is a very good slice place on 14th Street called Artichoke. There is always a line becasue it is popular and it is run like a horse's ass.

And actually nytraveler, there has been quite a boom in NY BBQ places in the last 5 years that have gotten very good reviews from BBQ mavens - Hill Country, Blue Smoke, RUB, Fette Sau just to name 4 off the top of my head.

And I understand OP's point - it is interesting to check out places that do show up in the guide books, you never know where a reputation comes from.

Adu - it is said that Artichoke will open a West Side branch in the old biker bar Red Rock West space on 10th and 16th Street. So the ravenous hordes can troop off pollution spouting tour busses parked under the High Line and wait for pizza there, too.

Artichoke is also opening a bakery next door to the 14th Street store. It is caled Led Zeppole. No kidding.

bachs - Noting that Frommer and Fodor ( dare I say this here?) are considered reliable sources for restaurant recommendations is a bit questionable. I would say that if you are looking for places that tourists frequent - ok - you'll find them listed therein. But this town has too many good places with top food and service to limit yourself to those recs. BTW - Yonah Shimmel comes up frequently re knishes. I have to say that when we were there not too long ago and tried the knishes - let's just say I've had better. Of course, my standard is Mrs. Stahl at the foot of Brighton Beach Ave. - every type was delicious - light, fluffy, dough - just right -- potato, kashe, cabbage. Gone.

Mrs. Stahl's is now a Subway.

Adu - really? that's a drag, I didn't know that. Mrs. Stahl's were great. In a previous century, I served Mrs. Stahl's cocktail knishes at my 30th birthday party - people called me for days after, asking where I got them . . .

I'll only comment on Virgil's here. I've recommended it many times to friends and have gone relatively frequently because I like BBQ, but it's really inconsistent and has definite ups and downs. Right now, it's almost on a downward death spiral in terms of general quality ... aside from those ribs, which are still pretty good. But I went a couple of months ago and was generally disappointed in everything else, even the surly rushed service. Sides were actually horrible, not passable.

There are now better choices for visitors, and I expect in future Fodor's editions we'll see other BBQ places being recommended. Guidebooks (like many tourists) tend to fixate on old standbys at the expense of the new and different because that's safer. It's very true that the options for BBQ in Manhattan were limited to Virgil's, but even though it's a Times Square spot, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth going to or just a tourist spot. As I said, I've enjoyed it for years.

I really prefer Blue Smoke now (but it's also convenient for where I live). And there are now several other credible BBQ places in Manhattan. So I no longer recommend Virgil's, and it doesn't give me any pleasure in saying that.

"Really makes me wonder why I bother" so, why do you bother? What was the point of the post? To say mediocre restaurants are in fact mediocre and are popular because they show up in guide books?


Like many have said there are lots of options in NYC most don't show up tourist guide books, I guess that's why these forums are so popular.

I don't understand the whole Greek diner thing either-I think they are great for delivery, who else will deliver my $2 cup of coffee to my apt for free? But as an experience, I guess it's the same as eating a crepe on the streets of Paris, something to do to feel like a "local"

I've always wondered about Amy Ruths and with your review, I think I might make the trek up to Harlem to try it. Any tips on time of day to go to avoid long lines? What to order?

bachslunch, let me say that we who travel to NY as "tourists" (even though I grew up there, I only get there annually now) appreciate posts like yours. What's wrong with a few specific restaurant reviews? (K_brklyn, your post is a little schizoid - first you as "what was the point of your post?" and then you say "with your review, I think I might make the trek" --- well, THAT was the point of the post!!)

really, that was the point of the post?

Geez, K_brklyn, she was giving her own personal opinions of some NYC restaurants. You apparently read her reviews and decided to visit one of the restaurants she liked. Enough said.

I know there have been posts on Greek diners - which IMHO aren't different from any other sort of diner - and are basic diner food. Very casuale, very cheap and good for a burger or an omelet. Can't imagine why anyone would eat anything else at any of them or walk more a couple of steps to get to one. (Diners are places where local people go for a quick cheao bite - or college stuents go for breakfast at 3 or 4 am after a night out.)

As for BBQ - yes, there have been some places opened in the last few years - but NYC does NOT have a tradition of good - or any - BBQ.

Naturally you can eat wherever you want and whatever type of food you want.

It's just that the places you picked are - IMHO - mostly nothing special. Nor would I expect anything special at most of them. (And chicken and waffles is just WEIRD.)

And I wouldn;t consider any of the guide books - except Zagat's - a deent guide to restaurants.

Adu - really? that's a drag, I didn't know that. Mrs. Stahl's were great. In a previous century, I served Mrs. Stahl's cocktail knishes at my 30th birthday party - people called me for days after, asking where I got them

Both of grandmothers lived in Brighton Beach. I remember the original owners and then the cranky Weinberg brothers. They were wonderful knishes.

Zabar's makes pretty good store made knishes. Yonah Schinnel's is OK but I love the fact they haven't cleaned the windows in 75 years or changed the light bulbs,

There was a Greek diner in Brooklyn that made deep fried challah French toast. It wasn't French or toast, it wasn;t anything but delicious and worthy of a state fair.

There is a diner in Jersey where people who weigh 265 are called "Slim." I think they start eating in the parking lot where their cars need re-inforced struts.

Note re "Greek" diners. Fact is - just about every diner is owned by a Greek - just a fact of life in NY (and elsewhere). They are not Greek restaurants but often do show a Greek salad or maybe mousakka on the menu. They have the best looking waitresses and that's because the Greek owners know whom to employ. And they call you "hon".
And BBQ: Daisy Mae does a very good BBQ - gets a good mention in Michelin's NY restaurant guide. Slightly out of the way on 10th Ave. - but worth the detour.
and SF3707 - sure you're a tourist but that doesn't mean you don't want the best bang for your food buck and you generally don't get that at the places most frequently patronized by tourists.

Mrs. Stahl's knishes - they were almost as good as my grandmother's and right down the block from Zeimar's deli - those were the days!

jroth - yeah Daisy Mae's - I knew I forgot at least one - Daisy Mae's rivals BBQ I've had in Lockhart, Tx - the brisket is great. And the sides are wonderful.

Oh and by the way nytraveler - you may think chicken and waffles is "weird" but chicken and waffles is a quite respected and quite popular soul food dish. Years ago, when I was working on a film with older jazz musicians including Dizzy Gillespie, these kind artists told me about 'splurging' on chicken and waffles after late gigs - either at Wells' in Harlem or later in the '70's in LA at Roscoe's. Of course, 20 years on, they were all battling heart disease! But it can be great.

Here's a good article about it
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/restau...ent?oid=287614

jroth said: "bachs - Noting that Frommer and Fodor ( dare I say this here?) are considered reliable sources for restaurant recommendations is a bit questionable."

jroth, I'm not necessarily saying that, but you do raise a valid point -- what's the most reliable source for restaurants? Good question. Given that it's not unusual to see poor, tourist trap (to my way of thinking, at least) restaurants such as Barking Crab and Union Oyster House in Boston guidebooks, am thinking one needs to approach such listings with healthy skepticism. Zagat's can be of interest, but isn't foolproof either. I've usually had best luck at the chowhound website, especially if the forum is an active one (not at all a fan of the site's moderators, though). BTW, more or less agreed about Yonas Shimmel -- been around forever, but in my experience a place that dishes up just OK knishes. Problem is, the only good way to find out is to try the food, which I did.

Aduchamp1, am thinking if I hit Totonno's again, will ask for the crust not to be well done, which seems to be their default. There are folks who like well done pies with "crust char," but for me it's just burned food and not a pleasure. The toppings were good and in good proportion, and will definitely restate that with a different crust, this could be a really good pizza.

k_brklyn, there was no wait at Amy Ruth's when I went shortly after opening on a weekday, and really liked the fried chicken and waffles.

nytraveler, the idea of fried chicken and waffles seemed weird to me too, but I was game to try it. Have read that the combo came about because of extreme late-night Harlem diners who couldn't decide between breakfast and dinner, so lumped them together. Surprisingly, it worked, at least for me. They also do fried whiting, rib-eye steak, fried catfish, smothered chicken, fried shrimp, or chicken wings paired with waffles.

BachsLunch, you raise an ever challlenging question for travelers and travel boards reagrding the reliabity of the reviewer.

When I read Chowhound or Menupages, half the people have no idea of which they speak. I am unfamilar with many cuisines, so how am I to know which half are dummies?

Zagat's. When the vast majority of the most poular restaurants are expensive, you have idea whether you budget and eating habits will coincide and how important is ambience. I also think the herd mentality is evident when certain places are over rated.

The real problem is with indiciudal reviewers. Unless uyou have seen their recommnedations and have actually eaten there, you have no idea whether they were valid or not.

Fodor's and Frommer's are an odd combination of safe and quirky. I see places that would not recommend to my cousin I cannot stand but then other selectiosn show discernment.

Frommer's and Fodor's are mainstream guides and I guess they need to satisfy a mainstream audience.

It's kind of silly to suggest that New York is NOT a BBQ town. Danny Meyers opening Blue Smoke and Adam Perry Lang opening Daisy Mae's have made it serious business. While those, Dinosaur, and Virgil's seem to rule the roost, there are some good BBQ joints in Manhattan. And while I personally think Blue Smoke probably has the best food, if you want to spend half as much, Virgil's comes in a very close second (and one of the few places you can get really good barbequed lamb). If you're a local though, you'll just have to get over your silly notion that if it's near Times Square it HAS to be bad. Some locals even like LeBernadin despite its proximity to Times Square, of course some locals must think it's just another tourist trap since it's so close to Times Square. Give me a break.

Well back Neo, it waa amiable while were you gone.

If people want to go to Becco and Tricolore, than that just means available seats at better restaurants.

A recent article in the NYTimes reveals how the ownership of Diners is changing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/ny...rsnj.html?_r=1

Just leave the lemon meringue recipe.

Auduchamp, Becco and Tricolore are mediocre restaurants in my book. That isn't the point.

My point, which you will never get, is that it is just as silly to say that EVERY restaurant in the Times Square area is BAD as it is to say that EVERY restaurant in SOHO or any other neighborhood is GOOD. There are good, mediocre, and bad restaurants all over Manhattan -- trying to say that all in one specific area are specifically good, bad, or mediocre is just plain idiotic. But again, you feel you are right that ALL restaurants in the Times Square area (which most people regard as a whole lot larger area than simply Times Square) have to be bad simply because of where they are. Anyone who believes there are NO good restaurants in the Times Square area (including the surrounding theatre district for example) just isn't thinking with a clear head.

Amiable while I was away? You mean because no one dared to point out how silly you were being with your "there are no good restaruants unless you get away from central Manhattan" crusade? Yea, it always seems amiable to the person who is spouting nonsense and no one is checking him on it.

Neo-
I am just saying that in your abesnce there were disagreements without recriminations, name calling, an accusatory tone, and words like idotic.

I have a little story for you.

A distant cousin visited New York who claims to be a foodie. They "found" Roberto Passon and were proud of themselves. I sent them to Supper on East 2nd Street which about the same price and they said there is was no comparison, that Supper was far superior.

That said, please name one restaurant in the theatre district that you would recommend if you were coming from another neighborhood.

I'll mention four without even spending any time thinking about it. In alphabetical order: Chez Josephine, Lattanzi, Orso and Red Eye Grille.
PS to Aduchamp1: Your little story is merely one little story that hardly makes it qualify as a rule of thumb.

Auduchamp, say what you want, but my suggesting that the opinion that there are NO good restaurants in the Theatre District or Times Square is an idiotic one, is nothing compared to the name calling you have done to me -- including the time you took it upon yourself to slam me in a post about a GTG I was to be at saying horrible and totally uncalled for (and incorrect) things about me. Now THAT was name calling! You'll be hard pressed to find me doing anything even remotely that bad. But yes, I disagree with one specific opinion of yours. If that makes me a bad person in your eyes (I realize how horrible it is to have someone give an opposing opinion to yours --GASP), then so be it.

Besides, you totally miss the point again. In 99 out of 100 cases, the person is not looking for a restaurant in that neighborhood and coming from another one. Yet you invariably suggest that if they are already in one neighborhood and are seeing a show in that neighborhood and then spending the night in that neighborhood -- they should go through the hassles of double transportation, schedule(difficult with a show), and time restraints -- and travel to another neighborhood simply because there is NO decent place to eat where they are. NONSENSE. (and if you want to call that name-calling, well, so be it).

What would your little story have to do with someone staying within two blocks of Roberto Passon, seeing a show, and wanting dinner before or afterwards and returning to their hotel? You or your friends may like Supper better (it's awfully hard though to compare two restaurants based on one visit each -- perhaps they ordered well at one and not so well at the other -- every restaurant has some dishes better than others). But it makes little or no sense for someone to try to go to the East Village before a show or afterwards and going through two difficult taxi rides (have you ever tried to get to a Broadway theatre at showtime or tried to get a taxi after a show?) Just as it makes no sense if you live in the East Village to head to Roberto Passon just for dinner then return home. See how that works? No one here is saying the the restaurants in Times Square area are the BEST. But even you admit that your foodie friends thought Roberto Passon was GOOD and they were proud of their discovery. Isn't that all we're really talking about here?

By the way, I haven't been "gone" from here. I've been offering help on lots of posts (there IS a world outside of NYC, you know). I just hadn't happpened to see that silly age old "there are no good restaurants near Times Square" comment in ages.

Neo-
I know it makes you feel gallant to be the defender of the downtrodden tourist. It is a bit condescending to think they need your assistance but please carry on.

And of the restaurnts HowardR mentions, the only one people would bemoan if it closed is Chez Josepshine and not for the food or price but for the host.

I don't consider it "condescending" to let tourists headed to the theatre district and who are looking for a decent place to eat know that they DON'T "have to leave that area if they want a decent restaurant." On the other hand I think it is totally condescending to tell poor unsuspecting tourists who are going to New York FOR Times Square and theatre and the midtown attractions and who are staying in that area -- that they are apparently dolts with no taste if they actually enter the doors of any restaurant in that area because they are all really bad. Suggesting they have to get out of that area if they want a good meal is not only condescending -- it's simply hogwash.

You may call that being a defender of the "downtrodden tourist" -- a knickname which alone shows how you feel about tourists. I just call it being helpful and trying to get them not to believe all of the hogwash being spouted off here.

By the way, your determining the "only one PEOPLE would bemoan" is also CONDESCENDING. Believe it or not, not everyone has the same taste as you. You really shouldn't talk about your own tastes and then act as if "all the people who matter" have spoken. There are plenty of midtown restaurants (including the ones Howard mentioned) that plenty of people would bemoan if they closed -- and I'm talking about New Yorkers, not just tourists. But of course you know you are right and I am wrong, and that YOUR opinion of what's good is the only one that really matters.

Thanks Patrick. And, I am sure I am not the only one on the forum who applauds you!
(Okay, now, shhhhh.....maybe if we're quiet he'll go away....and I don't mean Patrick!)

You are like two guys in straight jackets sitting a corner murmuring secrets to one another.

Darn, Aduchamp1 forgot to take his meds again.

Howard your wit reflects your taste in restaurants-something around the sixth grade.