Overly large people on planes
 

Since I am on a rampage re: air travel (my last two flights have been...ahem...not of the highest quality experiences), I have a question, as this happened to a frequent business-traveling friend of mine who was unfortunately not upgraded for this particular flight:

What's your stance on obese and/or huge people paying for two seats? Is this a civil-rights question or justified?

Justified? By me - hell, YES! Try a bus ride next to a highly overweight person. On the plane you can't stand up and move away.

Civil right? Where is MY civil right to have a normal flight without being squeezed?

My sister is large enough that some of the more narrow plane seats are snug for her, though she doesn't need a seatbelt extender. A very rude lady in her office made the comment to her that whatever you put in that seat next to you, whether it is your child, your pet in a crate, OR PART OF YOUR LARGE BUTT that doesn't fit in your one seat, you should pay for two seats! It hurt my sister's feelings, but I guess the lady has a point. I think plane seats should just plain be bigger so everybody can be comfortable.

I flew on AirTran for the first time recently and was very impressed with their $35 'first class' upgrade availability. I think that is a humane and profitable solution without penalizing someone who is already self conscious. Other airlines' pricing structures of $X for 1 seat, $2X for 2 seats, or $$$ for first class seats seem almost punitive.

I have some overweight relatives and am sensitive to their plight, but let's face it- the airlines try to utilize as much space as possible, and unless you are up front, comfort is not their concern(despite new friendlier advertising). With 60% of the U.S. population "off the scales", kids too, something will have to change. Larger people know the seats only accomodate so much, and can either use the extenders or risk having to buy the extra seat(I saw the Airline episode with the two guys who went through the "test"). I say if their girth obstructs fellow seatmates from fully using their seats, then yes, they require more space somehow. I have sat next to offensive people with odor problems, snorers and yakkers, but I count on at least being able to have some armrest use and not having my space infringed upon.

What about the big guys who take part of your space even if they don;t really need it? I have found that large women are usually aware of the problem and try to take as little room as possible.

But I've been seated next to a couple of relatively big men (who did not need to overflow their seats) who seem to think they automatically get both armrests, half of your floor space and can;t keep their thighs to themselves. I've actually said someting once or twice - and just get a blank stare in return. Is this a male thing? Or were thee guys just extra inconsiderate?

ny traveler,
I rad a study once that said that men (regardless of size) take the shared arm rest at least 75% of the time. In my experience this has been true!

Yes nytraveler and welltraveledbrit, ...that happens occasionally to me. I am glad someone brought up the armrest wrestling that goes on :-D...what a pain in the arm and elsewhere ;-)

I am overweight, but never needed the extender. I am uncomfortable in the seats on the airlines, but cannot afford another seat or 1st Class. I try to be polite and not move around too much or cramp the other people next to me. I feel that if my rear end can fit into the seat and I can buckle the seatbelt, I'm entitled to be there, just like anyone else.

Any who cannot fit into one seat should be required to buy two.

Coming from San Francisco to Boston once, I had the aisle seat and another lady had the window seat. Just before take-off, we thought the middle seat might remain empty.

To our utter dismay, a very, very huge woman came along and pointed to the middle seat. Once there, she threw up both arm rests and proceeded to spill, considerably, into our seats. We were literally pushed aside and stuck there. The physical contact was nearly unbearable (think hot and sweaty on that side). Eventually, the window lady and myself, who spent most of the flight hanging out in the rear of the plane, returned to our seats for landing, shoving a magazine between ourselves and the middle passenger.

This was the most miserable flight I've ever taken.

Those seats are small enough for regular sized people!

djkbooks, I would not have had the same unpleasant experience because I would have moved to the middle seat and let the latecomer have the aisle seat with more room. Chalk it up to a random act of kindness and good karma.

Nice try.

Actually, I offered to switch. (Lady in window seat and I agreed waiting for the restroom that we'd "take turns" for at least breathing room.) She declined...I'm guessing it was more comfortable for her to be able to spread out in both directions. Even better when we left our seats for much of the flight, so she could have all three seats to herself. Window seat lady and I did not find it "kind" or considerate that lady in middle virtually shoved us out of our seat.

"Karma"? You must be kidding.

You had to be there...

I am not happy causing an overweight or obese person discomfort, but I feel I have a right to the personal space that I paid for. Several years ago I was in the middle seat with two large men on either side of me. The men were trying to stay within their space but couldn't. Now matter how they tried, our arms and legs were touching and I was being squished by strangers. (Maybe I am more sensitive to this because I am a woman.) I went to the attendants and told them the problem. They found a very slim young person who traded seats with me. I resented that the airline made such narrow seats that caused me and the men embarassment. It is inappropriate to assume that it is ok for strangers to spend hours unavoidingly touching.

At least you tried to make things better which is good karma.

Heartburn3, you are quite right. If your rear end can fit into the seat, nobody minds. But I think they are referring to the ones who really CAN'T fit into the seats, but think they can...and overflow.
I don't want to share my seat. Flying on a long flight is cramped enough without having to share. I want all of my seat ( and maybe even one arm rest, at least for half the time!).

Airline seats are way too small for the average person. If I fit in one of those seats I should have to pay 1/2 the price of a seat.

Just an FYI--I brought this subject up a couple of years ago and my thread was deleted in less than 24 hours.

You bring up a very valid point! I was smashed into a window seat once and the woman who was in the aisle seat was so large she was spilling into my seat. I was lucky, the flight wasn't full so the flight attendant helped me find another seat just before takeoff.

Don't get me wrong--large people have rights, and I have no idea what caused this woman to be in that kind of condition. But as a paying customer, I think I have some rights, too....which does not include having to pay hundreds of dollars for an uncomfortable 4-5 hours smashed up against a window.

It would probably be more helpful if you had stated the real "issue" in this by calling them what they are: FAT...skirting around it with "nicey" words doesn't help any.

Also, what about safety? If you are in the window seat and the "Overly Large" (OL) person is in the middle or aisle, and you have to get up out of your seat quickly and they can't - does this impact your safety on a flight?

Once on a SW flight there was an OL person in the exit aisle (bulkhead). I watched the flight attendant ask them if they were able to work the door in case of an emergency - the person said they were. They asked again, same answer. I wondered.

As I was reading this last night, the very thought of safety crossed my mind as well. What if there is (God forbid), some emergency and you can't get out of your seat quickly because of some huge person blocking your exit?

Aside from the inconvenience, this to me is a serious issue.

IMO, if a heavy person were large enough to cause a problem in an emergency, that person would have been required to buy two seats. I don't think the average, overweight, sneaking-butt-into-your seat passenger would be a problem.

Keep in mind that you could also get an hysterical person, a really stupid person or a frozen-with-fear person in a flight emergency.......... who would be just as much a problem as an extremely overweight person. If I thought about any of those possibilities too much, I probably wouldn't get on the plane.

Keep in mind that the ACLU may have to protect these fat people. They are entitled to the same fare for a seat that the rest of us are. Someone would scream RACISM agaist fattys.

The ACLU would force the airlines to make larger seats to hold the fat ass that would sit in it.

I am overweight but I do fit in the seat and by that I mean ALL of me fits. It isn't enough that someone's rear end fits! I recently had a flight where, at the last minute, a large man took the aisle seat next to me (my husband had the window). Although he could sit in the seat with the arm rests down and could lock the seat belt ... his stomach flopped over the arm rest and pressed against me and his shoulders were huge and took up a good half of my seat. I spent the flight leaning over into my husbands seat, got jno rest, and ended up with a severe back ache and stiff neck. Fitting rear end and hips in the seat w/ the arm rests down should NOT be the only test ... intruding on the seats of others should be the test.

mcqueeeney449's point needs to be repeated. It's not the seat width at the cushion, it's the arm and shoulder space. I sat next to a professional hockey player for 10 hours going to Europe a few years ago, and let me tell you, telling him he was fat and should have bought two seats would have been ill-advised. ;) (He was riding coach because his flight had been canceled so our half-full flight suddenly wasn't.) I'm bigger than average too (i.e, recline into my knees and meet your maker) but it was our shoulders that were colliding, not our bellys or asses.

Please note that if you want to turn this from a bitch session into something constructive, you should pay more attention to your airplane and your airline when you book. There is a big difference in seating space depending on which plane operated by which airline. If you feel this passionate about it, pick a carrier and/or a plane that offers more room, or that offers 2 x 3 seating. This is a travel board, for Pete's sake - be a smart consumer, not a kvetch.

When I recall the "seating" we had to endure in military flights, long 13 hour prop trips over the Atlantic, sitting in what was basically a sling with no armrests or anything else to separate "passengers", I find the complaints almost laughable.

Maybe instead of seats the airlines could provide mummy-sized "cases" that each passenger fit into, never touching, or looking at others. Heck, all cases could be made to tilt back in unison, so passengers/cargo could sleep. Sure would put an end to the armrest/reclining seat arguments, as well as the complaints ("He's on my side of the seat!", "She's looking at me!") I'm more accustomed to hearing from the grandkids.

SW is the only airline I know of requiring OL people to purchase a second seat. There's someone suing them right now for the humiliation...

Maybe airlines can have a seat near the gate, with a sign that says "Your butt must fit within this seat and not spillage alowed." Similar to the bins they have to check your carry on size.

Pardon my ignorance, but am taking my first transatlantic flight in a couple weeks on United, 11 hours total! Obviously this is a larger plane than I'm used to. Should I expect a bit more room, i.e. slightly larger seats?

I'm tiny, so I'm not concerned with invading others', just curious if I'll be as invaded as domestic flights.

Thanks!

I am a skinny fear full flyer, I was seated next to a very large woman and was annoyed. It turns out she was an ex flight attendant and helped me through the flight. I did not complain that she took up some of my seat.

In any mode of transportation taking more than one seat is rude. If I were big I would look for the airline with biggest seats.

gojacks,

While I certainly respect your right to have an opinion on this, it is not proper for you to put "words in the mouth" of the ACLU or belittle the organization.

<Keep in mind that the ACLU may have to protect these fat people. They are entitled to the same fare for a seat that the rest of us are. Someone would scream RACISM agaist fattys.>

Anyone familiar with the ACLU knows that they would not take up this cause. The airlines would not be discriminating by charging fat people more. They would be charging for the extra seat space used. This would not be unlike some men and women having to pay extra for clothing in extra large sizes.

Chicgal, SW gate people are the ones who assess OL people and require a second seat when necessary.

Dick,

If an obese individual felt they were discriminated against,and contacted the ACLU, they would follow up on it. It doesn't mean anything would come of it.

Funny now how pre-9/11, profiling was bad. Now it is common and the ACLU can't do a thing. Profiling saves lives in this case. I guess you can see I am not a card carrying member of the ACLU.

Someone posted a while back that they knew of a case where a large person had purchased two seats. The flight was overbooked so the airline "bumped" the extra seat and stuffed someone into it anyway.

I couldn't find the post through searching (surprise, surprise :-) ). Does anyone remember which airline it was?

So now that you've all tossed this issue about, would anyone like to take on the screaming baby or "Jeffrey's" (per Bill Cosby) who run around invading everyone's space?

Do you think airlines should charge extra for those inconveniences as well?
And how would that be charged - would that be an after-departure charge based upon how much noise these babies/children make, on a sliding scale?

If you can't tolerate inconvenience, charter a plane and fly alone. That's why it's called MASS transit.

Leona, I can tolerate inconvenience. I know my flight will not last forever. But: as a consumer I have the right to get what I've paid for, in this case a FULL seat on a plane without anybody physically intruding into my paid space. This is not about overweight people, it's about ME. A crying child stays in his seat. A fat person is there, next to me, pushing me out of my seat.

And I'm with GoJacks on this issue.

I also propose a "family section" on planes. Put them in the back, with some sort of divider, like between first class and coach.

Faina is right. It's about the others, not the OL person. We have a right to a full seat and at least the attempt at a comfortable flight.

Austin,

Why should a family be put in the Back? Sounds a bit like what they did to a certain race on buses. Would they not bother the people in front of them in the back?

Has nothing to do with race.

Put families in back because they are closer to the bathrooms. They also have a ton of stuff with them and it takes them longer to gather it and get off the plane. The rear usually departs last.

As for large people, I was on a flight and a gentleman was spilling over into my seat. Since it was a cross country flight (and I'm fairly skinny) I politely pointed this out to the gentleman and told him I was going to speak to the FA since I was more uncomfortable than usual.

The coach was full so they upgraded the large gentleman to FC. I held no grudge as it was a better fit for him and he held no grudge as he was upgraded.

Melissa: I well remember your previous thread and how it was pulled - I also got heat for my comments but I think they need to be said.

In most cases, you cannot choose your ethnicity, age, gender or sexual orientation and you should never be penalized for such.

However, also in most cases, you can choose to be in reasonable shape and not inconvenience others on planes, buses, etc. Flying is not an inalienable right. If you are grossly overweight and choose to fly then you should have to buy another seat so as not to physically invade another person's space.

I don't think overweight people should be scapegoated for the airline industry's failure to provide a comfortable environment for its paying clientele. I'm petite and I have a horrible time in those seats regardless of the size of the person next to me. I flew on a $500 ticket from SF to Denver yesterday, coach, a two and 1/2 hour flight, and wanted to cut my legs off halfway through it.

Re: civil rights (ACLU) issues.

It is not "discrimination" to charge extra for someone who clearly takes up too much space. Like charging more for big/tall clothing, charging for an extra seat for those clearly obese, is not discrimination. You are still providing a service.

I Googled this particular issue and came across a "Low Carb" forum that made me laugh because it was a bunch of OL people complaining it was a violation of civil rights, etc, and saying that if all airlines adopted this policy, they would be out of business real quick.

However, my 100K+ traveling friend specifically chooses to fly United or Southwest BECAUSE they have a two-seat policy in place. Having experienced the horror of a middle seat next to an OL person on a previous flight, he will not fly another airline unless he knows they it has a specific policy. Since the vast majority of the population (though decreasing)is not obese, it seems to me this would be a DRAW rather than a handicap for business.