Ah, OK, tom42, my misunderstanding.

(Because tone can be difficult to discern online, I wish to clarify that I am trying to discuss and not merely argue!)

As usual this has become a rather vague argument and like mentioned above it doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. We haven't talked about percentage of total workers who only do the bare minimum as opposed to the percentage of workers who blissfully do extra work simply for the joy of it and not for bonus or higher pay.

Yes, I tend to be a little cynical, but I have a hard time believing that more than half of the country's total work force actually do "more than is expected of them" without caring about pay or financial reward. And I won't hazard a guess to the number of workers who look for ways to finish work early, get there as late as possible, extend their lunch as long as possible, and even take breaks whenever they can because they feel they aren't making enough to "break their backs" going out of their way to do more. But I'll bet it's more than a handful!

The issue for me is the idea that servers will do the same excellent job for LESS pay, which $15/hr in NYC at a busy mid range restaurant would amount to: a pay cut. It seems to me that that question needs to be addressed more urgently than the question of convenience for foreign tourists.

It seems Danny Meyer has a plan to address that, and I agree it needs time to work.

If doing a less "excellent" job means I will be interrupted less often I am all for it. I ate lunch out today, and between my server and the manager I was asked at least four, maybe five, times how I was doing. If I'm not happy I will make sure you know, otherwise, deliver the food, keep an eye on my glass(es) and LEAVE ME ALONE.

Where DO you go where you receive such terrible service?? Every single restaurant-related thread hears you banging on about these dens of misery. Is it bad luck, bad taste, or bad karma?

I agree with Thursdaysd, it seems to be considered providing great service if you go up to customers 3 or 4 times during a meal to see if everything is ok, if I want something i'll let them know or at least they can wait until I've finished eating

I appreciate a waiter/waitress checking in a few times to see if we need anything, only because we often do. If it gets to four or more inquiries it's usually a training issue. We have the problem at a few restaurants but not most, regardless of individual servers.

tom: >>"If that is the case, does it follow that employees in the many jobs that don't involve tips only do the bare minimum necessary to keep their jobs?"<<

I'm not following your argument. The issue is whether money is a motivator. To ask if non-tipped workers only do the bare minimum is to skip over the key question of how and how well those workers are rewarded.

There certainly is something to the idea of someone taking pride in a job well done. But I think that only goes so far, and if a person comes to believe that the reward doesn't equal the output, the output suffers.

I agree vincenzo, except that I don't really think it's a matter of how much a person is paid that affects his willingness to work more without extra financial reward. For example I've rarely met anyone who makes a couple hundred thousand a year who still didn't think he deserved more -- and who still wouldn't want to get a bonus if he goes out of his way to do more than is expected -- regardless of how much pride he has in his efforts.

In fact I'm not sure if there would be a great difference between workers making the minimum and workers who are paid huge salaries in terms of their willingness to do more work without extra compensation.

I think this falls into the same category as "why would Oprah care about making more money when she already has so much?"

Well, this has taken a philosophical turn, hasn't it??

I have met very few truly un-materialistic (is that a word?) people in my life. I think Neo is right that even someone making a lot of money (relative to you, say) wants more.

The other component is money as a measure of achievement. Remember Michael Milken? He was famous for living modestly even as he broke laws to make more money. His wife was said to have been gobsmacked when she finally found out how much money he hauled in.

Warren Buffett is famous for living relatively modestly, too.

But that's not the same as saying that money is not a motivator for these guys.

<<There certainly is something to the idea of someone taking pride in a job well done.>>

It's not solely a matter of taking pride in a job well done, although I think that is a factor. It's also the human trait of wanting to please others (i.e. your bosses in this case), the possibility of promotions down the line, good references if seeking new employment, etc.

(oh and I agree with Neo in that I don't think it makes a big difference what a person is making)

> I have had good service in Europe; I have also had shockingly bad service, and saw a waiter in Cologne tell a man who complained about waiting 15 minutes for a menu "You don't like it? Go to McDonald's!"

That's not an anecdotal story, it's typical. The reason French and other European wait staff are known for snootiness is directly because it doesn't cost them anything to be snooty. Not just in France, it's true around the world, and is basic human nature: Why do an exceptional job when doing a standard or substandard job pays the same amount of money?

Not that I have all that much extensive experience with waitstaff in Europe, but the times I have been to London, Berlin, and Paris on vacation I never had a problem with substandard service that I can recall. I'm not saying that all waiters in Europe are great but I wonder if US waiters are significantly better. I've certainly come across my share of bad waiters in the US, tips notwithstanding.

Neo: >>I don't really think it's a matter of how much a person is paid that affects his willingness to work more without extra financial reward. <<

I totally agree. I was responding tom's post about workers making the bare minimum. Enough is never enough.

>>It's also the human trait of wanting to please others (i.e. your bosses in this case<<

That exhibits itself more often when the point of pleasing is to KEEP the job.

Have never found waitstaff in europe to be "snooty". They do have a tendency to be more reserved than american waitstaff - esp in chain places and less expensive restaurants - where the management instructs them to be faux friendly and smiley/smiley all the time - as if they were the village idiot. (Or singing and clapping for people's birthdays!)

If I'm going out for a nice meal I don't want the waiter to say "I'm Toby and aren;t we having a wonderful day". IMHO this is totally unprofessional. OK in a diner but not in a better restaurant.

And part of the reason many american waitstaff is so informal/"friendly" is that they are trying to drum up a better tip. European waitstaff receive a reasonable wage - so they can afford to be professional - and have time to develop their skills - since they are not mostly college students or actors resting between roles - and have received proper training.

Now - it is possible to get a bad waiter anywhere - either just a permanent grouch - or someone having a bad day. But IMHO they usually at least know what is in the various dishes and can make useful suggestions.

If I go to France, Spain, or Italy and the waiter says to me, "I am Pierre (Alberto or Gianni) and I am your server" I will burn my passport.

None of the above addresses the basic truth: tipping allows immediate financial reward to wait staff for jobs well done, if they get their percentage up front this incentive is eliminated. Y'all can make claims til doomsday about altruism for its own sake, and when you manage to remove your heads from your rear-ends you'll understand the world runs on rewarded and not unrewarded altruism. Namely money.

How many people here are salaried employees, that do not rely on tips or commission?

Do you have a boss?
Is you performance rated?
Are you a lazy dog?

This system does not preclude from one server getting higher pay than another.

Last night we ate at the Barcelona Grill in Brookline, MA.

It was good and reasonably priced.

Our waiter got a $20 tip. He was working with two other staff who shared the tip. They had about five tables, some spending more than we. So the team was bringing in somewhere north of $100 per hour, say $50 for him and $25 for each of the others.

Tapas are service intensive because it is lots of little place coming out of the kitchen at random intervals. Why would $15 per hour sound good?

Since no one here disagrees that servers should be paid well for good work, I don't understand the complexity of some of the ideas presented.

Doesn't tipping merely remove the middle man, i.e., the restaurant manager, from the equation?

I thought tipping inserted a middle man, i.e. the customer.

You aren't a middle man if you are the recipient of the service, are you?

> You aren't a middle man if you are the recipient of the service, are you?

You're certainly not a middleman if you're the one paying for a service.

Minimum wage in NY is currently $8.75 an hour, but for food service workers, such as wait staff it can be $5.00 an hour because they can earn tips. This covers all restaurants from your local diner to high end ones. That may mean earning $100 a week plus tips. If you work in a lower priced restaurant, the tips are generally not high. For many,its hardly a living wage.

In many European countries where service is included, the wait staff is paid a regular salary. In addition, the restaurant employees have universal health coverage, unlike workers here.

What you pay for a meal does not necessarily translate into a fair wage for the people who work in the restaurants, whether in the dining room or the back of the house.

Minimum wage in NY is currently $8.75 an hour, but for food service workers, such as wait staff it can be $5.00 an hour because they can earn tips. This covers all restaurants from your local diner to high end ones. That may mean earning $100 a week plus tips. If you work in a lower priced restaurant, the tips are generally not high. For many,its hardly a living wage.

In many European countries where service is included, the wait staff is paid a regular salary. In addition, the restaurant employees have universal health coverage, unlike workers here.

What you pay for a meal does not necessarily translate into a fair wage for the people who work in the restaurants, whether in the dining room or the back of the house.

Minimum wage in NY is currently $8.75 an hour, but for food service workers, such as wait staff it can be $5.00 an hour because they can earn tips. This covers all restaurants from your local diner to high end ones. That may mean earning $100 a week plus tips. If you work in a lower priced restaurant, the tips are generally not high. For many,its hardly a living wage.

In many European countries where service is included, the wait staff is paid a regular salary. In addition, the restaurant employees have universal health coverage, unlike workers here.

What you pay for a meal does not necessarily translate into a fair wage for the people who work in the restaurants, whether in the dining room or the back of the house.

For all the talk about waitstaff in Europe being paid "a living wage," I never see anyone post the typical wages of a waiter/waitress there. What are they compared to, say, a schoolteacher?

(Yes, I googled. No, nothing came up.)

Danny Meyer's The Modern Dining Room will convert to the no tipping policy this coming Thursday. We had (a fantastic; highly recommended) dinner there last night and spoke to the stellar wait person (this restaurant has some of the best service in Manhattan, in my opinion) about the coming changes. The current price for a three-course dinner is $98; this will change to $122 on Thursday, so the increase is more than 20%. (They also offer four-course and tasting menus, see menus below)

For a great experience, we usually tip in the range of 20-22%.

There will no longer be a line for tipping on the bill, and the people we spoke to have adopted a wait and see attitude about how the changes would affect the take-home of front of the house staff, while concurring that the back of the house would accrue definite and substantial financial benefits with the new system. I imagine that in a restaurant of this caliber there will be diners that will leave tips, disregarding policy changes.



Current dinner menu:

http://media-cdn.getbento.com/accoun...enu%2011.9.pdf

I have an MA in English and have been to about 40 countries but I don't understand some menus today.

I need clarity over pretense.

>>I have an MA in English<<

There's your first problem.

I hear you on certain menus but the one I posted recently seems pretty straightforward. But maybe you did not mean that one, from The Modern Dining Room.

On some menus, I do not menu I do not half the ingredients, on others I do not know what goes with what, and more than cockroaches in restaurants nothing scares me more then when the server says, "Have you been here before?" That means that are making a simple situation complicated.

<I need clarity over pretense.>
Are those the only two options? What if you simply don't know what an ingredient is? Chefs are constantly expanding their repertoires, and you can always ask what something means, ya know.

Thank you, Newbe, I never would have figured that out on my own.

There are great many menus these days where chefs seem to go out of there way for arcane ingredients, techniques, and combinations.

Sometimes it looks like the ingredients are secondary to one upmanship of other establishments.

You're welcome!

>>On some menus, I do not menu I do not half the ingredients, on others I do not know what goes with what, and more than cockroaches in restaurants nothing scares me more then when the server says, "Have you been here before?"<<

University officials called. They want the MA back.

They can have it.

Here is an article in today's NYTimes about Danny Meyer's The Modern and the new tipping policies, which go into effect tomorrow:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/18/di...ef=dining&_r=0

>>On some menus, I do not menu I do not half the ingredients, on others I do not know what goes with what, and more than cockroaches in restaurants nothing scares me more then when the server says, "Have you been here before?"<<

Apparently one of the recent mystery ingredients was alcohol -- lots of it.