The very best run restaurants in the world only make around $0.25 on the dollar.

This is a very slippery slope to go down.

Gekko, I don't get the first part of your last post. In order to pay their chefs the salary, they have to take the money in. Whether it comes from an added on 20% tip or they've added it into the price of the meal makes little difference. Were you suggesting that the owners take the extra money out of their own pockets to pay them more rather than out of the "profits" of the restaurant? If not, where were you guessing the money to pay them more would come from? Yes, the ARE capable of raising their salaries, but only if they take in more money, which is what they are doing -- what is your suggestion?

Regarding, the idea above of tipping a waitress in a diner a higher percentage, yes, I often do that too --never less than a $2 tip for a served sandwich and beverage of $6 for example. But the idea that they work just as hard as a waiter at PerSe and the suggestion they should make the same doesn't cut it with me. I suppose a roofer re-roofing my Florida roof works a lot harder than my physician, but I'm not sure they should be paid the same. If the diner waitress can carry off the finesse or polish of working in a place like PerSe, good for her and she should go for it.

And now that I see the plan is to include the extra 20% in the price of the entrees, I say good for them. What they're really saying is "we WILL provide fantastic service as part of the meal -- not as an added on feature".

Regarding waiting at French Laundry. Well, sure. It's supposed to be several (up to four hours). Good service at a place like that has NOTHING to do with pace, in my opinion. If they truly are inattentive at a place like that, then the customer needs to speak to the manager and suggest that a reduction be made if the service was included. Or accept the fact you don't like the service and never go back, just as you'd do if you don't like the food or the atmosphere.

If Per Se needs to increase revenue to pay its employees, it should raise its prices and allow the market to decide if it's worth it.

The "20% gratuity included" concept is insulting, and, like I said, I hope it backfires.

(And the included tip is NOT being added to the cost of the food. From the NY Post: &quot;...starting next month, the restaurant is doing away with tipping in favor of a <b>20 percent flat fee for service</b>, taking the question of how much to leave the waitstaff out of diners' hands. The practice is standard in Europe...&quot;

Clear enough -- 20% will be added to the final bill.

Gekko, I'm with you all the way on this one. I haven't been there yet, and I guess that tradition will continue.

I find the attitude towards tipping to be a regional thing. For example, I have observed that most people who dine at expensive restaurants in major cities generally tip well. However, on recent trips to Indiana, I find that many diners there are unaware of what a reasonable tip is. My waiter friends say that this is so because of the local economy and the loss of manufacturing jobs throughout the state.

&quot;If Per Se needs to increase revenue to pay its employees, it should raise its prices and allow the market to decide if it's worth it.&quot;

HUH?

Gekko, I guess you didn't read the full story above. I understood that they ARE raising their prices -- by 20%, and NOT adding on a separate service charge. Isn't that exactly what you're suggesting they do? Raise their prices to see if the market will continue? Personally I'll bet it will (but not with me as a customer). I actually think it's somewhat admirable that they are not only managing to &quot;raise their prices&quot; to cover those increased salaries but in a way that actually won't cost the customer a penny more. To me that's a good thing -- the customer still pays the same bottom line as before. Why is that such a bad thing?

Now let's be honest. Were you going to go if they didn't raise their prices? Will they miss YOUR business? Let's face it, all those people calling months ahead to try to get a reservation, sure won't care less if PerSe calls part of their $250 or more per person bill a service charge, an add on to the price, or even a &quot;donation&quot;. All they care is that they can get in.

I'm bothered by the comment that the money might go to the young chefs and not the waitstaff. If I'm paying 20% I'd like to know it's going to the servers.

Just who are those &quot;lazy Europeans&quot;? The service we've had in European restaurants has consitently been excellent, primarily because so many servers are professionals rather than people working in restaurants between doing other things.

<b>Judy</b>

Of course the money will go to the waitstaff, but it may be oly 15%, not the entire 20%. I can't imagine the restaurant being open for to long if the waitstaff worked for whatever the hourly wages are at this moment and no tips.

I also believe that there were many staff meetings about this before it was agreed upon. I would not be surprised if the owner(s) agreed to show the receipts to the employees at the end of the week, otherwise the owners could really screw the employees.

I imagine that the waitstaff will get 15% and the assistant chefs somewhere between 2-3% and the bus staff the remaining % of the receipts before taxes.

What some people fail to realize is the peer pressure will come into play in this situation. I really believe that most people do take pride in their jobs and in a siuation like this they will not allow a slacker to be around for to long as it diminishes their income at the end of the day.

Okay, let's clarify. Per Se is NOT raising its prices by 20%.

<b>Per Se IS adding a flat fee of 20% to the bill for service.</b>

Clear enough?

In other words, Per Se is &quot;forcing&quot; patrons to tip 20%, regardless of the quality of the service.


As an aside, according to a restaurant association study, the average tip in all of New York City (all restaurants) is 18.6%. Pretty good.

Call it what you want. Those of us who travel in Europe know that often it is &quot;service compris&quot; where service is included in the price of the bill. We don't know what actual percentage of that price on the menu is actually the service, nor do we know how the money is split up to pay staff. Nor do MOST of us really care. Many people have been saying for years that the US should do like France -- where service is included. Now somebody does it exactly like that, and still there are complaints.

If my bill was going to be $500 at Per Se after I tip a standard 20%, and now it is going to still be 20%, I really don't care what they call it. Get it? Why are some of you making such a big issue about how horrible the action of the restaurant is or what their terminology is, when you wouldn't even go there anyway?

I get it. Some of you think they should suddenly include the service AND NOT raise the prices. What kind of dream world do YOU live in?

I, personally, find it positively astonishing that an &quot;eatery&quot;, with the alleged status and/or hype of Per Se, would deem it necessary to automatically add a 20% service charge.

This is beyond ridiculous.

If this is necessary, one would wonder a) ostensibly this arose from failure of a great many patrons to &quot;tip&quot;, and b) WHY IS THAT?

My guess would be that the tab is simply not worth the experience, for one reason or another.

Anyone who can afford to dine at Per Se is simply not likely to not add a generous gratuity...without a very good reason.

In many jurisdictions, any &quot;automatic&quot; gratuity, service charge, whatever they wish to call it, must be removed from the bill at the patron's request, unless there's a signed contract, regardless of what's printed on the menu or on your bill...

OK, again I think many are missing another point here. No one said that Per Se hasn't been getting a 20% tip added by most if not all patrons. But how that money is split has become the issue. A waiter there can go home with hundreds of dollars a night. The restaurant wants to give a bigger portion of the money to the various chefs and/or other help. Rather than &quot;steal&quot; it from the waiters or require them to tip the chefs (I know that became illegal in Florida a few years ago) -- they have now chosen to raise their prices and decide for themselves which &quot;team members&quot; will get what salaries. That's really the bottom line here of what they are doing.

Again, for all those who for years have been saying, &quot;the restaurant should pay their employees properly so we don't have to tip&quot; this is exactly what they are now doing. They have increased their income so they can pay ALL their employees properly and no one has to tip. So what's the argument again?

&lt;&quot;the restaurant should pay their employees properly so we don't have to tip&quot; this is exactly what they are now doing. They have increased their income so they can pay ALL their employees properly and no one has to tip. &gt;

Sorry, no. This money is still coming out of the patron's pocket, not the owner's profit. All that's happened is that they've reached into my wallet and taken out the tip. Even if they're passing the full 20% to the waitstaff, it's coming from the customer, not the company.

Patrick, There is a difference in the reastaurant charging 20% more which some people may not have thought of.

At tax time the restaurant only needs to declare 80% of their income claiming that they gave out 20% to the wait staff even if they didn't, which I am convinced they don't give. The restaurant probably pockets 5% of it. I wish one of their wait staff could chime in an tell us exactly what percentage they are now being given. A thousand bucks says they are not given 20%.

<b>jorr</b>,

Your theory is kind of weak, because if the restaurant did decide to only declare 80% of revenue because of the 20% payout to the employees, then the employee(s) W2 form would have to reflect that. If not, IRS would be knocking on the door very quickly. Last time I checked IRS is very good in adding the numbers together so the sum of all the numbers equals 100% at the end of the day. They don't like it if it's anything less.

AA, As I said, the restaurant may only be delaring 80%. Lots of customers pay in cash. 5% or more could easily be skimmed off (the part which should have went to the wait staff). I said &quot;The restaurant probably pockets 5% of it&quot;. A New York high end restaurant may easily gross a million per year in sales. 5% of that is $50,000 undeclared profit.

BTW, I have worked in five restaurants. London, Bavaria, Minneapolis, Minneapolis, and San Antonio.

As I said earlier, I'm sure there were many owner/manager/employee meetings before this was agreed on. If the owner/manager did not agree to show the books to the employees, it still would be easy for a staff to keep track of their due. If the waiter knows that he had 10 $100 checks in a week, then s/he would expect 20% or $200 check (or whatever percentage they agreed to, remember the assistant chefs and bus staff also get to dig in) at the end of the week.

How is the restaurant going to explain to the employees that it was only $800, not $1000, when the employee is the one that finalizes and collects the bill?

AA, maybe the employees know all of what you have stated. They could still agree to get a guaranteed 15% from All customers and keep the difference quiet...or get fired.