New Issues with Air BnB in NYC
 

On the news this am: a couple of city tenants associations have conducted a study showing that more than 20% of the apartment vacancies in Manhattan and desirable Brooklyn areas have been pulled off the market to New Yorkers and are being illegally occupied by tourists. In a city with a chronic housing shortage this is a huge issue - with illegal profits going to landlords and "fake" locals who really live elsewhere. The group is calling for a crackdown - by delisting these properties from the Air BnB site.

And for those with some sort of mania that this is being driven by hotels to keep rates up - this is information from a TENANT's association, which typically represents issues for tenants against landlords, including activity in controlling rent increases.

Naturally Air BnB says this study is not correct - as what business wouldn't.

Where this will go from here is the question. But given the stated position of the mayor to increase affordable housing for New Yorkers this may become a new big push.

My brother and sil and another couple rented an apartment in Brooklyn this week for a wedding. Hope all goes well.
My only bugaboo with them so far has been the communication between you and the owner. Airbnb zaps out personal email and phone numbers.

People in the neighborhoods which are affected by the transient accountancy might check with a title company to see if there are CCRs on the property. Surprisingly our older neighborhood built in the late 50s has use restrictions as well as local zoning restrictions. The city attorney office does not enforce them. A lawsuit is pending.

If they have rented the whole apartment that means it is illegal - any rental of a whole apartment for less than 30 days is illegal. They may well be fine - as long as it isn;t just a scam. But might not be appreciated by the neighbors.

flpab, did they know about the issues with short term rentals in NYC? It amazes me how some people feel that as long as they don't get caught it is OK do rent illegally!

< In a city with a chronic housing shortage this is a huge issue>
No it's not.
The city's chronic housing shortage dates back decades, way into the last century in fact, and is the result of misguided laws, do-nothing government and sky high prices.

Air BnB needs to make sure it's rentals are legal, but it is NOT the reason so many New Yorkers can't afford to live in their city.

<< In a city with a chronic housing shortage this is a huge issue>
No it's not.>

Two words: rent control.

Two more: eviction impossibility.

Eradicate those problems in the city's laws, and that housing shortage will be less short.

Everything that is being built does not have rent control, which is actually very apartments, or rent stabilization.

It is counter-intuitive that that after 9/11, that the world be flocking to Manhattan and a small part of Brooklyn.

20% of apartments in Manhattan are owned by wealthy people who live elsewhere. That is the main source of affordable housing problem in Manhattan.

If you read the Sunday NY Times Real Estate section, they highlight the most expensive sale of the week. Rarely does it go below $15 million and often it is $30 million or more. These are coops and an occasional townhouse.

Is there another real estate market in the world where there are at least one sale EACH WEEK of at least $15 million or more?

Sorry, that first line should read very FEW Apartments.

Hey Fodor's, they have had something for about 15 years, it is called an editing button.

Excuse me while I contact the other people I know on Fodor's by using Myspace.

Not sure, the daughter that is getting married lives in Brooklyn. Maybe she knows the people. If it isn't legal they have other rellies in the city. They all wanted to be close to the venue in Brooklyn.

https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/4957358?s=o7oP
an example, it these people own the whole brownstone, five floors but rent out one of their floors is that legal? I will let you know how it went. I would stay here in a heartbeat,much better than a tiny hotel room.

Yes, if the people own the brownstone and rent out a floor that would be legal since they are resident on the premises.

The main problems are:

landlords that built or rehabbed buildings under 421-a (program giving them significant tax breaks and are supposed to rent apts at reduced rents in return) but want more for the apts and so rent them at illegal rents or hold some off the market to rent to tourists. (No one forces them to do this - they can charge market rent rates if they don;t opt to take the city funded 431-a tax benefits - but they want both.)

(I know about this since I lived in an apt in a 421-a building and after living there for about 1.5 years realized the rent was too high. I challenged it and filed with the rent board. It took almost 2 years to settle - but at the end I got almost 10 months of free rent - more than $7K - because I had been overcharged so much. Really helped with the downpayment for my first co-op.)

people who have a lease under rent stabilization but either don;t occupy the apt full time or don;t live there at all - but do;t want to give it up in case they want it in the future - so they rent it out illegally to tourists. This is against the standard lease and the landlords don;t want it to happen - but they're difficult to catch - and eviction is very time-consuming.

They are back home and all went well. Seems many did this in neighborhood of where wedding/reception was in Brooklyn. No problems and all she said was it was a lovely brownstone. I didn't mention the recent uproar since there is no problem with airbnb in the Adirondacks where the live. Many airbnb places there. The locals love it as it brings in more money for community.

Glad it went well for them. And in the Adirondacks if owners are renting out their own places to tourists part of the time they are not either cheating landlords, pulling apartments off the market for legal city residents, or making buildings insecure for legal residents by giving keys to random strangers - so a completely different situation.

>> the recent uproar<<

Not really 'recent'. Most NYC rentals are and have been illegal for decades and the info was out there including TONS of threads on Fodors. It is just that airbnb has exploded the rental market and made the issue a gorilla instead of a spider monkey.

most vrbo/homeaway rentals were just as illegal -- but didn't swamp the market.

Airbnb is much aggressive than VRBO. They have lobbyists, ad campaigns, well-focused lawyers, and a recent Wall Street valuation was $10 billion.

There is no comparison to VBRO.

I know -- I thought that is what i said ??

vrbo et all were sort of a cottage industry and toodled along not making too many waves. airbnb turned the vacation rental market on its ear.

With unintended (or <i>maybe</i> intended) consequences -- in places like Paris.

oops -- don't know where that second 'l' came from. et al . . .

Should not have been so emphatic.

But you can't blame Air BnB without also blaming the owners of residences that are being let out illegally. Air BnB took off like wildfire in cities with expensive real estate. Owners like it because it makes them money. Air BnB couldn't succeed without them.

Airbnb must bear responsibility for whom they allow to use their site. They do take money from them. It is like an escort service pleading not guilty because they did not know their employees were hookers.

They also have no liability for any illegal activities perpetrated by guests as they have very subjective and casual system of rating guests.

It is the perfect business model and you are paying for it.

Airbnb must bear responsibility for whom they allow to use their site. They do take money from them. It is like an escort service pleading not guilty because they did not know their employees were hookers.

They also have no liability for any illegal activities perpetrated by guests as they have very subjective and casual system of rating guests.

It is the perfect business model and you are paying for it.

<It is like an escort service pleading not guilty because they did not know their employees were hookers.>
What a terrible analogy! Prostitution is illegal; renting lodging is not. The vast majority of Air BnB listings are legal. Air BnB makes it easier to break the law, but it's still the listers who are doing so. Would they still do so if Paris, NYC and other cities were to find a way to curb real estate inflation?

>> renting lodging is not. <<

Renting lodging in NYC is (mostly)

I thought the analogy was funny

>> renting lodging is not. <<

Renting lodging in NYC is (mostly)

Really? Hotels will be shocked to hear it.

I thought the analogy was right on!

If air BnB only listed legal sublets in NYC the problem would be solved. As it is they knowingly list many hundreds of illegal sublets and don't let the renters - who may not know any better - know they are doing something illegal. So the prostitution analogy is very apt for what they are doing in New York.

Doesn't it depend on the zoning?

No, the prohibition in NY is by statute or ordinance, it's not a matter of local zoning.

NewB, short terms rentals ARE illegal in NY unless it's just a room in a house/apartment and the owner/tenant will be there too, or an entire single-family house (I think). The fact that renting hotel rooms (by hotels) is not illegal is irrelevant.

The legal situation is complicated, this is NY.

Many laws about housing are made by the state Legislature and Governor. Some are local NYC laws and then the City also has Community Boards.

The regarding this aspect of Airbnb is a NY State law.
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Of course, Newbe is outraged. That's her job. I think she a direct descendent of Cotton Mather.

Cotton Mather - snort!

sf, do try to follow the entire thread, not just my last comment. I was rebutting janicej's assertion that renting lodging in NYC is illegal, to wit:

>> renting lodging is not. <<

Renting lodging in NYC is (mostly)

Renting lodging is not illegal, snort. That was my point.

IMD, I hate the way you refer to me with such hostility by name over without any substance, just personal remarks like the one above. It is inappropriate. I don't know you! We are strangers. Disagree with me all you want, but the personal remarks are creepy and have to stop.

And btw, do bring the prostitution analogy to the proper authorities in NYC, and all over the world, why not? Air BnB has yet to lose a skirmish, but you guys could turn the tide!

It would be nice if someone wanted to seriously discuss the issues raised by the sharing economy, and by tech companies claiming that they provide apps, not services. I am actually not without ambivalence here. But all this "old ways were the best ways" fear-mogering is boring.

Air BnB and Uber and their ilk aren't the enemy, ossified thinking is. And these companies require innovative regulation, something the naysayers aren't capable of devising as far as I can see.

Will anyone respond substantively to what I just wrote? or will IMD just hurl another creepy dig at me? I know where my wager would go.

Newbe-Your passive/aggressive non-sense is getting old. You took offense at something that was not directed at you, and then you wah wah wah for a few postings. For once take responsibility for your words.

And while you were wah, wah, wahing, much was said in terms of the law.
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No zoning is not an issue. This is a LAW i New York State and covers the entire state. However, real estate issues are different in different areas. In the areas of NYC popular with tourists there are very few single family homes - it is almost all rental apt, co-ops or condos. So the effect is completely different in those areas than in areas with primarily single family homes owned by individuals.

And I'm not sure what "mogering" is. Could you possibly mean "mongering"?

And it has nothing to do with HOW the places are rented illegally - it's illegal if printed in a newspaper, listed online, posted on street corner signs or done through mass phone calls. The problem is the illegal sublet - not how it was advertised. By your reasoning internet child pornography would not be illegal since the purveyors are not sending out magazine or DVDs but are offering a child porno app to people to exchange their own favorites.

Last October the NYS AG issued a report regarding Airbnb here are two of the conclusions. They are copied verbatim


Gentrified neighborhoods account for vast majority of Airbnb revenue: Bookings in just three Manhattan neighborhoods – Greenwich Village/SoHo, Chelsea/Hell’s Kitchen and Lower East Side/Chinatown – accounted for more than 40% of hosts’ revenue, or about $187 million. By contrast, all reservations in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island combined brought in $12 million, less than 3% of the New York City total.

Short-term rentals are displacing long-term housing options: In 2013, more than 4,600 units were booked for at least three months of the year. Of these, nearly 2,000 were booked for a cumulative total of six months or more, rendering them largely unavailable for use by long-term residents. Notably, the share of host revenue from units booked as short-term rentals for more than half the year increased steadily, accounting for 38% of the site’s revenue by 2013.
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It is a Manhattan issue where affordable apartments are at a minimum without the invasion of Airbnb.

I do have one another question for non-NY'ers. When people visit your town, do you like when they break the law, then leave?

"I do have one another question for non-NY'ers. When people visit your town, do you like when they break the law, then leave?"

Great point!

In answer to the last question, if by breaking the law you mean renting an apartment through airbnb, honestly, I couldn't care less. I'm glad they're here and spending their tourist dollars.