Ivy League College Tours
 

We're from the SF bay area and planning a college tour in July. Schools of interests are UPenn (wharton school of business), MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Harvard, Brown, MIT, Columbia, and if we have enough time, would like to visit as many of the ivy league schools as possible. We have about 10-14 days. Looking for suggestions / tips on best itinerary and airport to fly into and out of. Also, do the colleges give tours in the summer and are classes in session to visit during this time of the year? Thank You.

If you omit Carnegie Mellon, the trip is pretty straight forward and do not visit Cornell

Fly into either Philly or Boston and leave from the other. Dartmouth is a bit out of the way, but not that much by car. Besides that you can either drive or use AMTRAK.

Cambridge (Across the river from Boston)-MIT Harvard, then to Providence-Brown, New Heaven-Yale, NYYC- Columbia, and Philly UPenn,

Ivy League schools do not generally have regular summer school, although sometimes there are special sessions/programs going on - but they are nothing like regular classes.

But sitting in on a class for 30 minutes would be way down on my list of important things to take into consideration when deciding on a school.

Why only "Ivy League". Are you aware that Ivy League designation refers to schools belong to a sports conference many, many years ago. Is the applicant interested in urban vs rural; small-medium-large. These are all certainly excellent school - and by adding non-Ivies (already Carnegie Mellon and MIT) to the list you could have hundreds of schools, which is obviously not a good idea either. See a mix of school types. Best advice my kids ever got - "the most elite school you can get in to is not necessarily the best match"

With your 10-14 days on the east coast, I would spend 2-3 days in Boston and see Harvard, MIT and a few other local school. Head to RI to see Brown. Then pick 2-3 schools in some combination of NYC, Philadelphia, and even DC - and decide how to spend the rest of your time. (And I am not knocking Ivy League Schools to be mean - as I am Brown 1976)

Suggest you do it during the school year--a long weekend, spring break, etc.

As you come from the west coast, I would want to spend more time at the schools when the weather is not warm. It would give a more realistic idea of what it would be like to trudge from class to class in temperatures in the negative numbers and/or 10 inches of snow. Also what it is like flying to/from school/home with frequent cancellations etc.

That would also give you an idea of what the campus was like when there were regular session classes going on.

A couple of notes:

to someone from CA many schools in the east can be shock in terms of weather. Winters can be long. cold and hard. Of course most student adapt - but it shouldn't be ignored.

Agree that the kids should think about big city versus suburban versus rural. If from SF large cities should not be a problem but issues of small town life should be considered for some.

The kid's potential major or area of interest is very important. Some school just have much better programs in certain areas. And if your child has any inkling of what their interests should be (I and both of may daughters knew by sophomore year of high school the general area of out interests - by no means all the same). A lot of kids seem to go for something romantic like film or communications without really understanding what is involved and what job opportunities are. I think if kids are really interested in an area like this they should enroll NOW in a class in a local college to get an idea of the type of wok involved.

Going when school is in session is also much better if possible and you should definitely build your itinerary around the official tours that each school gives at specific times. And go with specific expectations based on student interests.

Unless you are prepared to completely fund all expenses for however many years finances should be a major part of the discussion process. More and more students are graduating with massive student loans and realistically limited means of repaying the loans. If you can't afford everything students should start focusing now on the whole range of scholarships available as well as working part time while in school. This may also affect what school they consider - based on what schools might offer (a bright student can easily get a free ride at many lower level schools - but it may be a waste of their time and intellectual abilities).

(My parents were very naive and my father never told me his company had a student scholarship fund - which would have allowed me to graduate with no student loans rather than having a very difficult few years paying mine back. He later told me he thought the scholarship was only for children of executives??? And that anyway I would not have qualified - just nonsense given my grades and standard test scores??? I just don't know what was in his mind - except that to him once I was 17 I was on my own.)

In an case, collect all of the info you receive, take a lot of notes as you go and shoot/film as much as possible so after you have seen several schools the student can keep everything straight.

I grew up in NY and went to Cornell. I never adapted to the winter weather in Ithaca (which is why I live in California). (P.S. Those were still some of the best years of my life)

Not that personal prejudice and experiences of 40 years ago should enter into the equation today. Weather yes, transcontinental transportation, of course, but I am sure that is obvious.

Although the Ivy League is a sports designation it use in the vernacular predates that by some 20 years. It usage now goes far beyond the sports conference.

Sometimes snow and bad weather can be an attraction such as the Med School at CUNY Buffalo which attracts skiers.

Yes, I believe almost any college will still give tours during the summer. Virtually all have some kind of summer programs (a college campus is an awfully expensive asset to sit vacant for a couple months), but usually traditional college classes attended by regular college students is only a small part of that. You may find some that run on Quarters rather than Semesters (Dartmouth was this way 30 years ago). Every student had to attend at least 1 summer quarter, usually the summer after your second year, so in that case it's a little more like during the year.

I remember back when I was visiting schools I could tell just by walking around campus for an hour whether it felt right or not. I could never explain why, but I knew. I think visiting a bunch of schools briefly during the summer can at least help cross some off the list. Certainly the good thing about summer is you don't have to worry about weather problems. Then come back during regular school sessions to look at a smaller list more in depth. The northeast is small enough that in just under 2 weeks you should be able to get in brief visits at quite a few schools (even decide whether staying for a tour is worth it), figure out which make the cut for a second look, and come back in Fall, winter, or spring. I will also add that while the winters may be long, I always found it a lot easier to do school work in the winter than in May & June. My GPA always took a nosedive when the nice weather came around.

You have gotten a lot of really good advice here, and for a change, it is not mutually exclusive.

I really like the idea of a summer "winnowing" tour. New England is pretty wonderful in the summer and the rest of the Northeast is okay, just more humid. Every place you mention is incredibly different from San Francisco, the Bay Area, and the Peninsula. Check them out. Try really hard to help your student experience the locations, particularly how your student would get around and to and from home.

The weather won't be at its most miserable until February (or April in Boston) but you can't wait that long, so come back to see the short list in the first two weeks of November, which are often conveniently chilly and raw. You will also get to see Real Classes then, and many places will allow your student to stay in a dorm at that time.

You really do need to realize the issues you (your student) will encounter in winter. Boston is cold enough (MIT, Harvard), as is Providence (Brown). New Hampshire is a bloody tundra (Dartmouth).

Your current list (cutting out the double MIT) is:

UPenn
MIT
Carnegie Mellon (NOT an Ivy)
Harvard
Brown
Columbia

The Ivys are Penn, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia, Harvard and Yale.

It's easy to do the Boston-Philly trip to see (from north to south, basically): Harvard & MIT, Brown, Columbia, Princeton and Penn. Cornell and Dartmouth are off that track - the latter is basically in the middle of the box formed by Vermont and New Hampshire. Hanover is a REALLY small town.

Providence is horrible in the winter. Statistically it is windier than Chicago and precipitation is often sleet and ice pellets rather than pretty snow - and then it snows. But at least Providence is a much nicer city than when I was there in the 70s.

It would be best if you check with the school whether they give tours during the summer. I would think so, but check with them to make sure. The campus tours may dictate your itinerary - research that before making any definite travel plans. You may even have to sign up for a specific tour time.

My son adjusted to the weather just fine coming from Texas, so I wouldn't let the cold weather deter you or your child - after all, it's about the education. If Brown is chosen, your child will not need a car.

You may want to check out air travel between home and school. In the beginning, we could get flights in/out of Providence rather inexpensively as AA was just beginning a route convenient to us. After a year or so, my son had to fly into Boston and train back to Providence. Not nearly as convenient.

Have fun - it's an exciting time

Sf7307, You made me smile. My DD went to Cornell, undergraduate through PhD, about eight years altogether.
She now lives in the Caribbean where she considers below 70 to be cold. She avoids the states in winter.

It is my cynical self, but I do not like those college tours as they are too smiley. I always thought it was better to stop a few students and ask questions or eat where the kids eat and start a conversation.

IMD - a few years ago, a client of mine brought 2 of his grandchildren (cousins from Idaho an Wisconsin, would be engineer/ball player with great grades, broadway wannabe with talent and no grades) to look at schools in NYC and Steven's Inst in Jersey.

The kids scheduled their interviews and researched their schools. They had each been to NYC with grandpa so I knew both as their tour guide. Yes the college tours are smiley but each one had an adult lecture about job prospects for graduates, financial aid etc which was pretty sobering.

In addition to channeling my mother the HS guidance counselor and making sure they got to their interviews on time, we explored the neighborhoods and went to evening activities that were on and off the radar.

hhn66 - put your child to work researching the schools - interviews, tours, and class availability. Have child say, I would like to visit X school because....
and Ivy League should not be the only reason. You have a lot of excellent advice above. Heed it and have fun...

A Guide Named Sue

Thanks Sue.

She now lives in the Caribbean where she considers below 70 to be cold. She avoids the states in winter.

Sounds heavenly!

P.S. I have a mental image of myself, circa 1970, in a wool maxi coat, long scarf (a la Isadora Duncan), boots, gloves and hat trudging through the snow to class. Ugh. But seriously, I LOVED Cornell (and wasn't nearly as fit then as I am now - my girlfriends and I chose our phys ed classes (a requirement at the time) based on proximity to our dorm!

For most schools you have to set up an appointment for the campus tour. And it benefits you to do that as schools keep track of which students have come to visit.

There are many more schools in the NE to look at than just the ivies, including many considered "almost ivies". Georgetown, Tufts, Johns Hopkins, Williams, Swarthmore, Amherst, Wesleyan, NYU to name just a few.

<<hhn66 - put your child to work researching the schools - interviews, tours, and class availability. Have child say, I would like to visit X school because....
and Ivy League should not be the only reason. You have a lot of excellent advice above. Heed it and have fun...>>

This ^ is excellent advice.

I don't really see the point of trying to attend a class on a college tour. What is the purpose of that? I'm surprised schools allow people not registered to sit in classrooms, I've attended 5 colleges myself--undergrad, grad and 3 for extra classes--and have never seen such a thing (unregistered people sitting in the classes). What would be the reason for this, you are going to attend dozens of different classes during your college time period with many different teachers across many depts, I just don't see the point of it at all.

Unless it were some school that had some unusual avant-garde idea about how every class was taught or something.

I have the answer, Christina.

It is to see who is teaching and what the students are like.

Some technically oriented universities are reported to have first and second year classes taught mostly by graduate students, TA's and post docs whose command of English is not good.

At other distinguished universities, it is possible to go for four years and never get into a class taught by one of the superstars.

In addition to seeing who is teaching, and I would try to get into a discussion session as well as a large lecture, what are the students like? Are they engaged? Vocal? Thoughtful and reflective? Bored? Sleepy?

Another thing to do, and I actually learned this from watching my son, is to read the bulletin boards in classroom and other buildings to see what's going on, both professional and non-professional. MIT used to have a famous Gilbert and Sullivan group, for example, and these schools have club sports and intra murals and extracurricular groups of all kinds, operating in some cases at so professional level.

These are the kinds of things that make these universities [more or less] worth the money at more than a credential level.

Forming an opinion from one class, whether it be negative or positive, cannot be instructive in the least. How are those circumstances going to be duplicated in the future? I am sure the university picks profs whose demeanor is lively and welcoming. Can you imagine if a university had a list of students they wanted to discourage and sent them to a mean prof sleepwalking through his tenure?

It is true that many schools have doc candidates who teach the smaller classes in some subjects, when the full professor does one session a week with a class of 100/150 or more.

Sometimes they are great (mine in earth science was) and sometimes they were awful. My math teacher for the smaller session couldn't speak English well enough to teach. After the first 2 classes I though I was a dunce, then asked one of my suitemates who was a math major to come with me. She couldn't understand a thing he was saying. After 15 minutes she got up and we left, went straight to the departmental office and I was switched to another session - and I got an A- with no problem at all.

This is true of most schools. The trick is that it should not be in your major (my degree is history and all my history, poli sci and antro profs ere great) and if the teacher is bad enough you just need to change.

The problem is if most of the classes are run this way - as opposed to match for liberal arts majors (for instance).

But by talking to a couple of students in your potential major (or at least the general area) you should be able to get an idea of the level of teachers in that major.

And of course if, as a parent, you want more than some grad student only marginally competent in English teaching your child for a mere $50,000 a year, you're some philistine . . .

Honestly, you should be able to sue for fraud.

1. Optimally, there would be TWO college visits - one early one in summer or fall to get an idea of location, flavor, etc., and you can do that on a fly-by tour, with student tourleaders walking you around. Much more important is the one after you get in to help you choose based on actually being there with other admitted students. The colleges do a good job of that spring "prospective students" days, and you often sit in on classes then. Frankly, in my opinion, if you can't afford two trips, the second one is much more important. But some parents and kids just can't imagine that. If you get into two places or more and can't decide, that spring trip after admission is ESSENTIAL.

2. I notice you haven't looked at all at the "little ivies" - the small liberal arts colleges. Thanks to USN&W report and other guides, they are often overlooked because people think they're just extended prep schools. They're NOT. They provide a valuable experience of small student-teacher ratio (which often permits research collaboration you can't get in a univ. as an undergrad) and a great mix of specialization within a spectrum of areas. Not perfect for some but outstanding for others. They're more well-known on the East Coast (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore) than the West (Reed).

But as to the trip - you've got good logistical advice above re: start at one "end" and work to the other, but know that you're just barely getting a quick taste of a school in summer, not what it would really be like to go there. That April or May trip after admission is CRUCIAL and don't expect to not need it. THAT will be much more real for you/your kid. If money's an issue, though, know that some kids are perfectly able to take that April/May trip by themselves, and it's a good experience for them to do that.

PS: don't obsess about getting an on-campus interview with the admissions office. Some are discontinuing that anyway, and some offer an interview with alumni near your home -- often a far better deal for an applicant anyway.

In case I didn't make it clear, most colleges do offer a formal 3- or 4-day weekend ("New Students" "Future Classmates" "Prospective Students") about 3 wks after admissions letters go out. All students they've admitted are invited to come back to see the college with the 'new' eyes of someone who might actually go there. Typically, they stay in the dorms, eat with current students, go to classes, attend special lectures, parties, etc. and meet professors. It may not be mentioned in the preliminary material they send you, but ask if you doubt it.

My son was wavering between 2 places, with a third in the wings. He'd seen all in the prior summer, but now, 6 months later, it got real. He found real drawbacks to #1 and #2 during this second, closer look; and we were worried until he called us from #3 and said "Hey, this is a no-brainer, this place ROCKS!"

In graduate school, my friends said I must take a course with this fellow who was a genius. He was a Sikh and had a very heavy accent and I did not know if he was a genius or not because I didn't understand him and transferred to another class. I have this most bizarre facility. Even though I grew up in a neighborhood where many people had accents, I don't understand people when they speak English with accents, but get the gist of the conversation when they speak their native tongue.

So I transferred to class conducted by the head of the department who gave standard lectures, gave standards tests, and required standard papers and it was my only C as I objected to some of his characterizations and generalizations.

Such is life.

Of course, it is not indicative of every class and I do not know about many fields, but in some areas it can be very helpful to at least go to a class and meet the professor. If you are an art major, with an emphasis in painting, even seeing the type and quality of work being done in one of the classes will tell you something about the approach to teaching it. That is true for most art classes. Attending a lecture in even one art history class will tell you how they are structured, and there is a huge difference from school to school, from pitiful to excellent. It can't hurt to sit in on a class, or speak to other students in your field.

I studied Creative Writing with winners of the Man Booker Awards and National Book Award winners. One SIL attended a college that specialized in art. It really depends on the individual instructor. Like every other discipline, there are instructors who know their stuff but are simply horrible humans and worse teachers.

For art, it is pretty well known what the major differences are between Yale, NYU, Columbia, Cooper Union, SVA, Pratt, Rhode Island School of Design, Smith, and the other schools with well-regarded programs.

And I am not sure what auditing one class would prove.

I do not mean to be contentious, it is simply something I feel strongly about. If you are going to be the arts, start thinking like an independent and creative soul as soon as possible and shun the pressures of conformity and weigh the values of others before accepting them as your own. Yet it is also essential that someone in the arts learn their craft, which is often ignored, and broaden their intellectual horizons, so that one can transform any idea into a painting, novel, music, dance, etc. And that is the need for a formal education.

It is important to find the balance, but do not kill the outlaw in someone. And this tours and classes seem to so practiced and regimented.

Of course, it is crucial that students and parents know the realities of financial aid and job prospects, that, however, is factual not propaganda.

I will shut up now and not argue any more about this subject.

I am laughing at little - not at OP but with memories. Our daughter (5 years post-college and not with an MPA) and I trudged around seemingly every college in the Mid-Atlantic states - plus multiple ones in New England as day trips. This is what I can tell you.

1. The weather will be terrible. In our case, an unusually hot spring. Over the rivers and thru the woods on sprawling campuses.

2. This is proceeded by a lovely slide show and/or video by an admissions person. They will tell you why Wonderful University is a great choice for everyone.

3. The tour will show you a classroom, the library/media center, a dorm, and for some strange reason, a laundry room. Accompanied by a narrative by a student admissions office employee who loves Wonderful University.

4. Due to exhaustion, something minor that seems major will happen. In our case, we lost our rental car at George Mason University - I forgot which rental car we had on this trip and no memory of which garage level it resided. After this travel annoyance happens, you will be ready to immediately leave your kid at whatever school you are at.

5. By the time you are home, much of the trip will be a blur and your feet and patience will be tired. One school may likely jump out at you or your kid - hopefully the same one. They will then spend the next 6 months thinking if they do not get accepted by Wonderful University, their life will be over.

6. All this will have an overlay of "I can't believe they are going this far away to college" thoughts from you and "Finally - on my own" from your kid. It is bittersweet.

While sitting on a bench with a prospective applicants father (having refused to climb 3 flights of stairs to see yet another dorm room), I mentioned that my son had visited 3 schools and my were well into double-digits with our daughter - he said "girls like to shop"

End of our story - by summer after junior year in HS I refused to visit any more schools. She conned my husband into taking her to "just one more school" - where she applied and was accepted Early Action and thrived.

Whatever schools, routes, specifics you decide on - try to enjoy the process. They re gone very soon.

Gail, that is just wonderful! It may be the best thing you have ever written!

Your information is always thoughtful and accurate, but this is "New Yorker" quality!

Thanks for brightening my day.

Wonderful, gail!

My son found classroom visits very helpful and chose his college, a great fit for him based on them. He liked neither the weather nor the town it was in but loved the teaching style, the small classes, and the willingness of the faculty to engage with him.

Ackislander - you are too kind.

hhnn66 - are you there? any more info re: your hopes and goals re: a university? Reactions to suggestions here?

Many of the comments remind me that while some teens know already what they want to study, others have no idea. Worth remembering that their minds can change entirely or be made up in unexpected ways between first year and graduation.

Hhnn why not add Princeton and Yale. I can't think of more Ivy League than that.

The way to get to Princeton is take NJ Transit to Princeton Junction and then take the shuttle train locally called the Dinky or PJ & B (Princeton Junction and back) to the town of Princeton and the university. One of the prettiest campuses in the country.

You can then go on to Philly on the same line.

For undergrads just deciding where to apply, I think the most important thing is to just walk around campus (I agree that classroom visits are not very helpful) and get a feel for the place ---- my son was able to cross schools off his list based on this kind of survey trip (he may have been right, he may have been wrong, doesn't matter). I don't think interviews matter, I don't think the fact that you visited matters. After acceptance, then I think the "admitted students" weekend IS important. For law school, he attended admitted students weekends at 4 eastern schools. He KNEW which one was right for him within hours, and he was absolutely right. At admitted students weekends, you meet actual students and actual students would might actually be your future classmates. He met his future best friend that weekend.

My son crossed Stanford off his list immediately after a student-led tour. He just knew it wasn't for him. I have no idea if he was right.