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I think a lot of people are missing the point with why people got so angry in Alabama at the Top Gear guys. (BTW, Top Gear is one of my favorite shows, and I saw that episode on BBCAmerica last month.)
Sure, the things written on the cars were provocative - that was the challenge. And in all honesty, only Richard's truck was really that provocative (the homosexual one) - the others were very mild. Would people in Alabama threaten to beat up someone for having a Hillary sign on their car? Of course not, though they likely might be pretty vocal about it. The reaction was likely less to do with the actual content of the messages and far more to do with the fact that these people KNEW they were being mocked to their faces and being videotaped. Sure, their response only furthered public perception of them as backwoods, intolerant, violent bigots - and who's to say they weren't - but they probably would have just kept to themselves, muttered under their breath, and gone about their day without the cameras or the presence of the whole Top Gear crew. I can think of neighborhoods all over the U.S. and in Europe where you wouldn't want to paint something deliberately provocative on a vehicle, meant to openly ridicule the locals, and then videotape them. It isn't a Southern thing. That said, there are some pockets of intolerance in the South (and in the rest of the U.S. and in the rest of the world). |
Very good points, kgh8M.
However, re: If "it isn't a Southern thing" to go up north and bait the Yankees, frankly, it's not a particularly northern-US thing to go down South and do what the TopGear people did. These jerks were Brits on a mission to be outrageous AND with a fairly familiar condescension to embarrass (a) Americans, (b) Southerners, and (c) rural people, based on stereotyping that they count on getting confirmed. You do have to wonder how British viewers would react to having an American film crew go to, perhaps, the north country, on a similar mission. Ironically, both "limeys" and Southerners like to use the word "Yankee" as umbrella-term for people they don't like. As I said, I agree that it's not a Southern thing to go to another country or even another state to stir up trouble; but I do know that when a northerner is in the South, he/she can count on hearing constant antagonism toward "damn Yankees," often forgetting that the friend they're talking to came from Up North. |
Cfc, if you only would have posted this earlier:) People on the Europe board were arging with me that the word Yankee is not an offensive word to Northeasterners. I've noticed that people that live in the western US have never experienced it and have no problem with being called Yankee. My spouse feels that way. Bt most certainly Yankee is used as an insult by people from the south. I lived in Pa which was of course is the border state for the North vs. the South and have heard it called negatively numerous times. Some just don't get it. Kinda like the confederate flag thing.
Again, I am not saying that all people from the south hate northerners which is certainly not true but it does exist, a few hundred years after the civil war. |
"a few hundred years"?
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Okay then, 146 years ago. Does that change the crux of what I wrote? I was speaking in generalities, zeesh. Anything else?
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travlinwifey,
Just the crustiness about how much time has elapsed since the Civil War is an example.... and sorry I didn't chime in about "Yankee" earlier -- a little busy. But it's NOT a neutral term when used by any Southerner, ever. And if you live in the South and aren't Southern, you find this out fast. There are more Southerners than "outsiders" or even Southerners, themselves, who are still negative about Northerners, by which they mean Northeasterners. Had an interesting, but sad, conversation with someone from western NC. He was at pains to say he refused to feel guilty about slavery -- it was a fact, it was long ago, his family didn't have slaves, many slaves were treated better than servants Up North were, etc. And he made the valid point that the North would not have been upset about secession and slavery if it hadn't been for some of the economic realities. BUT he was at equally great pains to insist that the "federalists" had perpetrated inexcusable atrocities when they "invaded" the South and that Yankees should feel continuingly guilty about all that. I think if his town had been invaded by the TopGear people, he would have assumed they were damnYankees or put up to it by damnYankees. |
Hi cfc, I've been told numerous things the past years that were shocking, the best was that Lincoln abolished slavery "for spite", that was in Savannah. It wasn't meant as an insult, it was a matter of fact to the person stating it (a tour guide, lol). I've learned that people in the south have a different interpretation of the civil war than the northerners.
And again so no one gets mad at me each person is different everywhere you go. One of my closest friends is from North Carolina and some of my friends from college transplanted from the NE to the Carolinas. I do have some hesitation about our home in NE Florida because my spouse is half asian but so far everything has been fine. I did notice when we went into Cracker Barrel he was the only person of different ethnicity and for the first time in many years I noticed a different racial structure as our city, most of the places we visit are multicultural. However my small town in Pa is predominantly caucasian too but we don't go back often. |
Well, yes. The difference between "a few hundred years" and 146 years IS the difference between a "generalization" and SWEEPING "generalizations".
"zeesh" |
starrsy -- wasn't saying that you were incorrect or hypersensitive in pointing out that "a few hundred years" was off by quite a bit. Just meant to say that it suggested how much more "recent" the Civil War and its "insults" is for some people than others. I didn't put it very well.
People who believe they were wronged and never got adequate redress (or revenge) have much longer memories about events than people who believe the outcome was acceptable. |
Ah yes, the term Yankee. As someone from New York City who now lives in Middle TN I have been the recipient of that phrase more times than I care to count. And everytime it was an insult. Sometimes jokingly, sometimes derogatory but never in a good way. Followed often by "bless your heart" another veiled insult.
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I have a few thoughts and really am sorry I will have limited internet service in the next few days to continue following this thread.
1 - I think the show was a set-up. I think that the same crew could go to ANY location in the USA in the same vehicles and paint sayings on the vehicles designed to mock, taunt, belittle the residents. Bring a camera crew along and you would get very similar results. I have traveled this country extensively and have found ONLY nice people everywhere I have gone, but IF I had traveled with the INTENT to stir things up, I'm sure that would have been the results. I remember my first trip to NYC. I couldn't sleep so sat on the ledge of the hotel window at the Grand Hyatt and watched the "show" below. I saw two cars at a light, then men with bats get out and start hitting on each other, jump back in the cars and speed off. One car had a flag painted on the roof. I checked later and learned that it was the flag of Puerto Rico. I have no idea what identifying features were visible on the ground. I have no idea what was said or done to provoke the scuffle, but the occupants of the cars did not seem to be best friends. Did I walk away with the idea that all Puerto Ricans jump out of cars and beat people in neigbhoring cars with baseball bats? Your best guess will suffice. |
2. I am a Southerner. I am a Southerner for generations - with the typical Scot-Irish background a bit of Cherokee mixed in. All of the above "nationalities" have chips on their shoulders to some degree. I betcha the folks in YOUR background have chips on THEIR shoulders to some degree. German. English. Scot. Irish. Cherokee. Mexican. Catholic. Jewish.
IMO people as a rule don't like other people positioning themselves as "better" than they are. I also betcha that if someone wanted to stir up you and yours - and brought a camera crew around - they would be successful. |
3. Now, the North/South thing. The difference between "a few hundred years" and less than 150 years is huge. HUGE. We are talking recent family history for some of us. Sherman marched from Atlanta to Savannah 9 miles from here. My family members watched and waited and listened for reports and prayed the "Yankees" would not come here. Sherman sent two flanks - actually on both sides and the intent was to destroy the infrastructure - at least any infrastructure that was left after years of war with the men gone fighting. This wasn't a Sunday stroll - this was WAR. This was not considered "The Civil War". This was an occupying army killing and destroying the other side. Around these parts it was called "The War of Northern Aggression". Womenfolk were afraid for their lives and homes. If they got off "lightly" maybe any food and livestock might be stolen. They may not have been raped, but they expected to be. All in fear of being killed. 9 miles from here.
For what? Slavery? People around these parts were "dirt farmers". Slaves?! The war to them was about anything other than slavery. My grandmother is 106 (still alive). Do the math. Anyone in here family 37 years and older in 1864 were waiting and praying. Right here. Outside this door. Watching the smoke from 9 miles away. The war was a part of her oral history. Did I have ancestors who fought in the war? Sure. Do I know their names and when they fought and the details? Heck no. My uncle does because he enjoys geneology. Do I "dwell" on the war. Good grief, no! Do I get pissed off when folks mock the difference in Southerners' perspective of the war. Definitely. ESPECIALLY when I read that they think the war was "a few hundred years ago". Do I know a single person who "hates" Northerners? Do I call anyone a "Yankee". Only when they are being jerks. Did a family member's 91 year old grandfather jump up and down when she married a black man? Definitely not. Does she fear for her safety when she and her husband travels around the South. Good grief, NO! The world has moved on. The SOUTH has moved on. We just don't like it when folks mock us. I'd bet my next week's paycheck that you don't either. |
4. And, now to take this off on a real tangent. Iraq. If you think Southerners have a chip on their collective shoulders about the Civil War, have you given any thought what Iraqis are going to feel going forward - even going forward decades?
Of course if you buy gwb's hype that we were bringing them democracy and fighting the "evil-doers" on their behalf, then I know the answer to that question. But, even years after "Mission Accomplished" we are still losing American lives every day. We are the invading force. Exactly WHO is it that we are fighting there? Who is the Blue and who is the Grey? Why are we losing American lives every day? What do the Iraqis think? When they eat a meal at the end of the day, what are they saying about the American soldiers outside their door and what reason do they think they (the soldiers) are still there? Are they going to remember the lives lost and the damage to their homes and cities for decades? And when we do pull out (if we ever pull out) will that be the end of the story for the Iraqis? I just wonder. |
Back to the OP -
Wonder what the show would be like if TopGear did the same thing in Baghdad? :-? |
A couple of web sites to read.
http://www.nps.gov/history/seac/histback.htm http://www.docsnews.com/johnsons.html Neither side "won the war". One of my great grandfather fought for the South and one for the North. The ironic thing is both lost an arm. In the locator they offer at Andersonville I have been able to find many of my relitives that were imprisoned there. |
Hey Starrsville, don't get me wrong, I love the South! But I will always be a Yankee I guess. And your explanation of the war is the same one I hear from my friends here. I had never heard the term "War of Northern Aggression" until I moved to Memphis where I think the war ended about 2 years ago :)
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[Just the crustiness about how much time has elapsed since the Civil War is an example.... and sorry I didn't chime in about "Yankee" earlier -- a little busy.]
...and if this had been the other way around, a lot of you guys would have been sneering that it was just another example of 'southern ignorance'. But, when it's the other way around, it's described as 'crustiness'. [Ironically, both "limeys" and Southerners like to use the word "Yankee" as umbrella-term for people they don't like.] This is not true in most of my experience. I use it fondly in reference to my friends that are not born here, to explain their unfamiliarity of southern ways or foods or traditions. Usually done in fun when the friend is 'throwing off' on a southern expression, accent or food, etc. Or if another southern friend is saying something the 'Yankee' friend may not comprehend, I may remind them that this point will be missed due to the fact that the friend is a Yankee....(& therefore please explain it so as not to be rude). |
SharonG: Yes, you will always be a Yankee, just like I will always be a Southerner, no matter if I moved to Boston or Maine & lived out the rest of my years. (Don't you think the people there would always refer to me as the Southerner with the 'accent')?
That is not a derogatory term to me. Damned Yankee is. That is the jerk afflicted with a superior attitude to which starrsville referred. |
Hey OleSouthernBelle: the funny thing is that when I go home to NYC, my family thinks I sound "southern" (I think it really means I talk slower). But they love to come visit me here because people are so nice to them and everybody is friendly. Plus my brother was in heaven when he first tasted sweet tea.
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<i>use it <b>fondly</b> in reference to my friends that are not born here, to explain their unfamiliarity of southern ways or foods or traditions. Usually done <b>in fun</b> when the friend is 'throwing off' on a southern expression, accent or food, etc. Or if another southern friend is saying something the 'Yankee' friend may not comprehend, I may remind them that this point will be missed due to the fact that the friend is a Yankee....(& therefore please explain it so as <b>not to be rude</b>).</i>
Do you not consider it rude to keep on reminding people that "you're not from around here, are you?" All that "in fun," and "fondly" isn't fooling those of us who know what "bless your heart" really means in the South. (translation: you're a craven fool, whether you can help it or not) If you,a Southerner, were in Phila., New York, or Boston, and someone kept "fondly" calling you a "Reb" or a "Southern belle" and explaining things to you because you don't know what's going on and "let's not be rude" -- to someone who might, actually, have been living in the area for 10 or 15 years -- don't you think you might begin to chafe a little under the constant reminders and "fun"? As for your family history -- as I said about how recent some things are to people who feel they've been wronged.... This business of the "war of Northern Aggression" overlooks the fact that the Southern states seceded and thereby broke up the country. Nor did the north fire the first shot at Ft. Sumter. Nor was the South the only side that lost its brothers and sons. Nor is the Civil (as in involving internal combat between citizens) War the only war American families have endured. I lost relatives in the Revolution, in 1812, and in both World Wars and VietNam. Iraq is an interesting issue, but let's not for a minute think there's a parallel between the U.S. Civil War and Iraq. The divisions within Iraq can't be underestimated, but until the foreign troops leave, it's not a civil war. |
SharonG: Believe it or not, I don't drink sweet tea. Another generalization - maybe with some grounds, but still a generalization.
I did make a 2 qt. container of unsweetened tea yesterday( what a quest requested )but, out of the 6 adults attending, only one drinks iced tea. One wanted hot tea. My iced tea usually goes down the drain. We're water drinkers. |
Oops! That would be 'guest'.
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Exactly Soccr, couldn't have said it any better myself. We are talking about something that happened, ahem, 146 years ago;) Isn't it time to let go and move on? People in 2007 have no control over what happened one-hundred-and- fourty-six-years ago, you must now use the correct dates in every comment, it sounds so foolish. Again, this is 2007, no need for words used to insult people stemming from something so far back in the past. Live in the now. here. today. You can control the future but you can't control the past.:)
This has gotten way too silly now. Good luck travelers, I didn't mean to become very serious, just that orignal "yankee" comment brought back other fodors thread memories. |
[Do you not consider it rude to keep on reminding people that "you're not from around here, are you?" All that "in fun," and "fondly" isn't fooling those of us who know what "bless your heart" really means in the South. (translation: you're a craven fool, whether you can help it or not)]
soccr: Believe it or not, but not all Southerners use the expression 'Bless your heart'. I, for one have never uttered the phrase. But, I have heard it uttered in sincerity as well as cynically. I've heard my friend from Boston say it both ways. [If you,a Southerner, were in Phila., New York, or Boston, and someone kept "fondly" calling you a "Reb" or a "Southern belle" and explaining things to you because you don't know what's going on and "let's not be rude" -- to someone who might, actually, have been living in the area for 10 or 15 years -- don't you think you might begin to chafe a little under the constant reminders and "fun"?] Believe it or not, but I have been north of the Mason Dixon line & I have experienced just that. So, it cuts both ways. I get tired of being ridiculed one minute as the dumb, inbred southerner one minute, then cajoled the next in that ' my brother likes sweet tea & we like your southern accent' - like that's the only thing likeable about people from the south - cetainly not for anything resembling intelligence. It's like saying dance for me you stupid idiot. You can say what you like, people from 'up north' are moving here in droves & the ones I know tell me they actually like it here! I have only met one of them that I don't like (that have made this area their home). The rest I find refreshingly friendly & with great sense of humor. Some have been friends for many years. Usually, it's THEM who bring up that they aren't from around here & want to know the lay of the land so to speak. Or them bringing up the friendly banter of the 'Yankee'/Southerner kind. Such as, 'Do you people really do or eat or say ____?' Or asking the meaning of a phrase & such. Every place has their own unspoken 'understoods' that's what I was referring earlier. I certainly wouldn't have friends very long if I did what you accuse me of. Usually explaining those things to friends is what encourages the friendship. |
OSB - try being British living in the US :-)
Other person - "Can you say that again?" Me - "I'm Sorry - didn't you understand...?" Other person - "Ohhhh... yes I did, it's just that your accent is so cute" Earlier this week I was in the store and while browsing the salad dressing was asked by a complete stranger "busy day today?" I replied that it was and she said "yes I saw you in the Post Office are you from England" I took it that she was being friendly (not a stalker) and wished her a happy Thanksgiving - not that we celebrated it, we've bought a house that needs a lot of work and the weather was too good not to spend the day working on her :-) That's a whole other story though. |
OSB "Usually, it's THEM who bring up that they aren't from around here"
Entirely a matter of perception as to who starts it, I think. My perception/experience is the opposite. I've learned NEVER to bring up something that refers to being from the North or differences between North and South, because I really dislike what happens when I do -- it's an unpopular thing to do, and the result is always that Northerners ("not you, of course, you're nice") are terrible people. But do note the way you/we are still talking about "us" vs. "THEM." That's the problem. |
It's true that Northerners can have a very condescending and stereotyped ideas about Southerners. The media don't help, because when they want someone to sound like a know-nothing hick, they give him a Southern accent. The TopGear people made their choice of state to pull this ugly prank, probably based on their own stereotyped ideas and never actually having been to Alabama.
But I've also noticed that Southerners have created some of their own problem when they make their accents even heavier and pretend to be particularly thick-headed (i.e., go for the stereotype) -- either to put one over on an impatient, rude Yankee or to show that they aren't self-important, know-it-alls (like those horrible Yankees) -- just ordinary people who don't think they're better than anyone else. In that sense, you can't have it both ways. |
Geez SouthernBelle, I didn't mean to imply that I thought everyone in the South drank sweet tea. I only meant that for years my brother complained that when he put sugar in iced tea it didn't melt. When he first came to visit me I told him to order sweet tea and he thought it was brilliant!
Okay everybody take a deep breath. We are all proud of our heritage, we all sometimes get our feathers ruffled, we all sometimes say the wrong thing, and we all at times think the other person is stupid :) By the way, my father was born in Baltimore. Does that count for being part Southern? |
SharonG: My relatives that live in Maryland consider themselves 'Yankees'. North Carolina is as far north as a southern title goes in my opinion - though I realize that is not the 'official' position.
And, though I believe you were trying to sooth some feathers with the tea & accent comments, those are the two that usually follow things like this video or comments to support it. To me, it's patronizing. Now, said in a different context, without the insults preceding , I can accept as a friendly gesture. soccr: My next door neighbors are from Minnesota & New York ( Manhattan ). They often call me to ask a question pertaining to the region & often ask about southern customs/expressions during visits or outings together. They are very friendly & intelligent people who I like very much. But they DO bring up that they aren't from here- often. ...So does my Boston Co-worker. She's a hoot! We do get into it N/S conversation, but it's always in fun & she is often the instigator. I've never been offended, as we all know that we can count on one another as friends. We've cried together & celebrated life's achievements together. IMO stereotypes have a base in any region, but the southern one has been harped on until it's just overdone. When's the last time you saw something good about the south? I think you may not realize that some southern accents are very heavy - that's just the way they speak. I sometimes do a double take myself at some of it I hear. |
>>My next door neighbors are from Minnesota & New York ( Manhattan ). <<
I live in a bad neighborhood as well. :D One of our neighbors is from New York and the other is from New Hampshire. We even have one, God forbid, from Northern Alabama across the street.:) |
OleSouthernBelle: glad we can come to a friendly end. I actually started off my life in the South in Memphis and had a very hard time understanding the accents there. I do better in Nashville. Hope you don't think I was being patronizing, I am thrilled to live in the South. It is wonderful living here. I just interviewed a prospective employee who now lives in my home town of Staten Island and she loved it here too. We consider ourselves lucky to live here. Can I be an honorary Southerner?
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"North Carolina is as far north as a southern title goes in my opinion"
The next time you pass through Virginia on your WAY to Maryland, please keep your windows closed. |
I'm from NC and live in Northern Virginia. The South extends into Virginia (definitely Richmond), but certainly not into the DC Metro area (I'd say it cuts off around Fredericksburg). At no point in Maryland have I ever felt like I was in the South, except perhaps on the very Southern tip of the Delmarva peninsula. The Mason-Dixon line does not define the South, and it actually makes me laugh to think of someone from Baltimore as being Southern (I've lived there, too). But, for that matter, the Southern half of Florida is not in the South, either.
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SharonG: Yep, glad to have you! Come in 'n sit a spell (...or longer works too!).
Dukey: :)) kg8hm: You're absolutely right about that one, too! :) I love meeting new (& different people). If I didn't I wouldn't travel. That's one of the things that makes this website so interesting. You never know who you're going to 'meet'. |
So, gard, at least some would say the answer to your OP question is a resounding 'NO!'
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Two points on all this - I have just made a belated stumble over the OP -
1. You have all been had Top Gear make regular set ups round the world that are stage managed. They use infantile humour to sterotype and send up everyone and anythings - don't take it too seriously. 2. The north/south thing is also alive and well in the UK. Just think yourself lucky that you lot in the southern states had a chance to take pops at the northerners. As a solid old northerner from the UK - I would love to see independence from the bullshitty south of England. Would love to have had the chance to join a civil war (LOL) |
Markrosy: Thanks for the words of encouragement, but you'll note I stated my certainty that it was staged.
Though the video was irritating, it's the first 3 (skip 4) & 5th responses (and a few after those) that grind. I want to get along with neighbors, N-S-E-W, no matter how far the distance. The Civil War was certainly over the injustice to the black race in our country. I cannot help what transpired in the past. It surely had the proper end result, whatever atrocities incurred (as most wars DO have). I really don't see why every offensive ridicule of the south has to refer back to the Civil War. What galls me today is the injustice of the ridicule continually heaped on the South (US). |
OSB - note that you took umbrage at my first post, but please understand that all I meant when I posted it is that to get the same response in other parts of the country, they would have had to find some other issues besides Hillary and NASCAR.
That said, however, I have to say that my experience -- which is the mirror (i.e. similar but reversed) image of yours, I think -- is that it's Southerners who make a point of going back to the Civil War to trot out their grievances, and Southerners who ridicule northerners/yankees on a fairly frequent basis. When I'm up north, I just don't hear northerners spend a lot of time or energy either on the Civil War or on picking on Southerners. It's just not part of their consciousness the way that being Southern seems to be for Southerners. It's interesting just to notice that we tend to capitalize "Southerner" and not "northerner." And there just isn't a comparable term for Southerners the way "Yankee" is used for northerners. |
OSB = we to suffer injustice in the UK - this is currently financial - a lot of investment goes into the south of England and is controlled by our central government -= southerns (like certain prats on this website) think it is funny to deride the north.
Making huge generalisations I see parallels with the situation in the states. I have made 4 , 2 weesk trips to the US. " to the north and 2 to the south. From my perspective (and I am not going into specifics to avoid winding people up here) the south wins every time for a traveller. Shame most US travellers tick off London on their European tour then move on. They ignore the best of what the UK has to offer. |
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