Holocaust Museum/Yes or No?
 

(I lifted this comment from another entry. How do you feel about this?)<BR><BR>Author: Roger ([email protected])<BR>Date: 06/26/2001, 07:53 am ET<BR><BR>Message: The Holocaust Museum is irrelevant to American History. The Germans should have a Holocaust museum but why the USA. Not a single Jewish person was killed in America due to the Holocaust. Perhaps the USA, because we have millions of Irish-Americans, should have a museum dedicated to the Potato Famine of the 1840s. Or perhaps, because we have millions of Italian-Americans, we should have a museum dedicated to Roman history or the southern Italian rebellion against French rule of the 1260s. A museum dedicated to black slavery in the USA is more relevant.

Obviously a troll post so I won't respond to the specifics. I will say that the museum is wonderful and EVERY human should visit!

Please don't respond to this string. I really don't want to have a mental picture of Steve smerking as he leads us down a misguided road. As a Jewish American, while I may want to wait in line for a slavery museum, to discuss relative relevance is wrong of which troublem-maker Steve is fully aware.<BR>

I can't help but respond. Such a post saddens me because this type of thinking is very common. One, I don't think Roger can prove that no Americans were killed in the Holocaust. There were Americans in concentration camps. I can think of a man from my home town in NJ. Two, there are Holocaust survivors living in the United States. Three, there are descendants of Holocaust survivors and victims living in the United States. Four, those who do not understand history are condemned to repeat it.

My point is that the USA did NOT committ the Holocaust. GERMANY DID. The Holocaust is the sole responsibility of the GERMAN people. The Holocaust is not a historic event vital to the stream of AMERICAN history. By the maudlin logic of ilisa, should we have a museum dedicated to the Cambodian Holocaust of the late 1970s (1 million dead) because many Cambodians moved to the USA (one of the used car dealers in my rural county is a Cambodian who proudly flies the Cambodian flag alongside his American, by the way)? Many Armenian-Americans live in the USA, especially in California. They were victims of a Holocaust at the hands of the Turks in 1916 which killed over one million. Should we build a museum to them? Should we build a museum to the Irish victims of Cromwell's sack of Drogheda? For America's Arab-Americans, should we build a museum to their ancestors who were put to the sword by Richard the Lionheart at Acre in the 1190s. During the Anglo-Saxon-Jute invasion of Britain in the 500s many Celts (descendants of the Welsh) were slaughtered and driven from their lands. Should a museum be built for them? As the Hindu Indians and the Moslem Pakistanis butchered over one million of their own in the late 1940s during the split-up of the British Raj, and that there are many Indian and Pakistani-Americans living in the USA today, should we build a museum to them? Or should a museum be built to the 40 million unborn children butchered by abortionists since 1973? And, as Princess Diana was the most beloved figure amongst America's People magazine set, should we not build a museum to her?

Another thing, my dear ignorant Roger. It is estimated that several thousand Americans were in concentration camps. I suggest you read "Forgotten Victims: The Abandonment of Americans in Hitler's Camps." You may also be interested to know that in 1995, Germany awarded 11 American survivors 2.1 million in reparations. Interesting, since of course, no Americans were affected.

It's late June, school's out, children will play. Let Roger et al go find a nice chat room to play in, and let this thread sink like the lump it is.

Obviously Roger has a problem with free speech and thought, and public education. It would be fascinating to understand how Roger grew up, the influences in his family and his town, his path of development. How Roger turned out is a perfect example of what we want to avoid when we educate our kids. Can you imagine a USA full of Rogers!!! Sadly, this is probably not a Troll Thing. Yuk! Ciao

Now I'm really confused. Roger says U.S. monuments and museums should only concern themselves with things that are American, not German.<BR><BR>Roger had better hurry over to the National Zoo and tell them to get rid of all of those foreign animals. When he's done there, he had best make a beeline for the National Aquarium, as many of those fish need to be deported.<BR><BR>Roger, if you still have any energy left, you might head over to the Einstein memorial in Washington and knock it down, as Einstein was &lt;gasp!&gt; German!

The Holocaust is a sad time in the history of humankind. The fact that it occurred on soil in another part of the world does not make it irrelevent to the US. Let's not be so isolationist in our thinking that we fail to educate ourselves about the truth of what is/has going on in our world.

You're right, Cindy. I mean, honestly, Chinese pandas in the U.S.? How relevant is that? And quick, run over to Air and Space and get rid of Yuri Gagarin's space suit!

I don't think Roger has a problem with free speech. It sounds to me like he's exercising his RIGHT to free speech, but in any case he has his head up his ass and should see a doctor immediately.

It's funny that none of my attackers come to grips with my argument. Some, like children, just hurl insults without any sinew to the insults. Sticks and stones. Others irrationally bring up the idea that because zoo animals come from all over the globe, the USA should have museums dedicated to historical events that occurred all over the globe, too. The bunch of my detractors seem to have the brain capacity of Rosie O'Donnell.

My first response was "no comment," until I read your second post. Troll or no troll, yes to all the museum ideas above Roger. The world can never have enough of them. They are educational. Maybe you should visit one sometime. At the Holocaust museum, you might learn that the U.S. was not completely innocent with regards to the Holocaust, and to say that it was all Germany is just not true. Germany brought in on, but it certainly found many accomplices elsewhere. And Ilisa makes a good point. Eastern and Western Europeans were not the only ones who died in the camps.

Dan, you are absolutely right. I am sorry to keep this thread going, but it is an issue very close to my heart since so many of my family died in Auschwitz. The United States most certainly was not innocent with regard to the Holocaust. It has been proven that the US knew of the concentration camps and what was going on, but deliberately chose to do nothing because Roosevelt feared it would interfere with the war effort. Additionally, the US knew there were Americans in the camps and chose to do nothing. The US also turned away ships of Jews, condemning them to certain death. As Dan mentioned, we can never have enough museums.

This is a discussion I should stay out of but I can't.<BR><BR>I think it's great we have the Holocaust museum, but when will the U.S. have a museum about Japanese internment? I think the Smithsonian is planning an American Indian museum so maybe we will finally learn about the shabby treatment by the U.S. Government of the natives.<BR><BR>It's easier to focus on others than on ourselves.

If I don't like something on TV, I turn the channel. I don't try to get it banned.<BR><BR>If I don't like a restaurant, I don't go. I don't petition the city to close it down or to build others that I like.<BR><BR>If you don't like a particular museum, then don't go.<BR><BR>See how hard this is???

Who is "Steve"? He says he lifted Roger's post yet Roger sure has been quick to chime in...Hmmmm....

Roger:<BR>Your argument has good logical consistency, given your premise. And you demonstrate considerable knowledge of history. I would not call you ignorant. However, our museums have never been limited to things only clearly "relevant to American History". We have many museums throughout the country with collections dedicated to foreign art, culture and history. Just as small examples, here in the SF bay area we have the DeYoung Asian Art Museum (this is supported by public funds and a big tourist attraction). In San Jose, there is the quite well known Eqyptian Museum. We also have smaller museums dedicated to different ethic group histories.<BR>Even though these are not strictly American History museums, they are generally considered to have educational value and worth the time and expense.<BR>I would have no objection to a museum dedicated to any of the examples you mention. After all, my ancestors came here because of the potato famine. The more history I can learn the better. Hopefully we learn from history to do things better in the future.<BR><BR>Note:While I felt to answer, this topic should have never come up on this board. While it may be relevent to history, it has no relevence to travel.<BR>Shame on you Steve for setting everyone up. Maybe you could babble to us your high-minded rationalizations why this inflamatory topic should have been discussed?<BR><BR>Gerry

Emmy, the Smithsonian is not planning an American Indian museum. It already exists in New York. The Smithsonian is merely moving it to Washington, DC.

Correction to myself. The American Indian museum is expanding to include the Washington, DC facility.

But, ilisa, the USA is INNOCENT with regards to the Holocaust. Yes, it is true that the Roosevelt Administration kept their knowledge of the Holocaust close to the vest during the war. However, Germany would not have been defeated one second sooner if the FDR Administration had let it be known that Germany was exterminating as many Jews as it possibly could. Over 300,000 American men died defeating GERMANY'S evil regime in World War Two. America need not feel ANY shame for what the Germans perpertrated in World War Two.

Roger,<BR>Americans do not visit the Holocaust Museum out of shame. What in the world does American shame have to do with this museum?

Maybe Germany would not have been defeated one second sooner, but maybe had the US done somethng, many of us would have our families. Also, shame? Honestly, did it ever occur to you that the museum exists as a learning tool? Fancy that. A museum which teaches something.

OK, now I get it. For the U.S. to have a museum or exhibit, the U.S. must be GUILTY of something in connection with the subject matter. So a museum isn't a place of learning -- it is a national confessional.<BR><BR>So that means we could never have a museum examining, say, the use of atomic weapons in WWI against Japan because most Americans believe the U.S. did nothing wrong in using them. The Smithsonian recently killed an exhibit on the Enola Gay. Maybe Roger's logic had something to do with it.<BR><BR>And England had better clean out all that Egyptian nonsense from the British museum. Unless England is prepared to admit they are GUILTY of something, that is. Then they can keep it, I guess.<BR><BR>The museum biz is more complex than I thought. I always thought you could have a museum if you had something significant to display. Guess I was way off base there.

One of the reasons we have this museum in DC is the reality of Jewish politcial and social power and presence in the US, and the insistence that our country create ways for us never to forget what occurred in the 1930's and 1940's. Personally I do believe there are some who suggest a worldwide shame, which the US would share ... reflective of the world's inaction when reports of the Holocaust began. To have the museum in DC is important. How irrelevant the debate over the nationality of the dead and suffering. Personally, I think we ought to create a second memorial, to all who have died when powers sought to depopulate entire cultures. Ciao

Back to travel tips.<BR><BR>There is a museum in Modoc national park chronicaling the disappearance of the Modoc indian tribe after its war with the US government. Fascinating and worth a visit.<BR>There is a museum near Mammoth Lakes about the Japanese internment experience.<BR>The best museum about the Indians is in Victoria, BC. It tells the history of the British Columbia indians before, during and after the arrival of the europeans. Totally awesome! This is a don't miss, cancel all other plans experience.<BR>Are there any more that I should add to my museum tour?<BR><BR>Gerry

To Ilisa and the others who have responded to Roger/Steve (likely the same person), don't you get it? Roger/Steve is having a great time baiting you. There is no point debating this issue with him. Let's just stop responding so that this thread stops coming to the top and just disappears.

Avi:<BR>Thanks for bringing this post back up to the top! It was almost gone.

The museum was great. The AAA book said to allow about 3 hours. We were lucky to get 10am tickets, and still hadn't seen everything when they closed down.<BR><BR>If nothing else, the museum serves to cause reflection on what the results of ignorance, hate, and bigotry can do. And it's also relevant to current events too, as there's a display on some of the man-made famine in Sudan right now, used as a form of genocide.<BR><BR>Maybe the Native American Museum will focus on the atrocities that European settlers caused on this continent? I've been to the one in NYC, but that seems to be focused more on N.A. art, rather than history.<BR><BR>Conclusion: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Avi, I don't think it really matters that he is baiting us. I kind of figured that. Sometimes these questions do provoke interesting discussion regardless, but I think we are all on the same page on this one.

ilisa,<BR> How was the American government going to save Europe's Jewry without defeating those responsible for killing them? Fly thousands of 747s to Auschwitz and the rest, ask the Nazis to hand over the Jews, and then fly back home again? Come on. About the only thing FDR and Churchill could of, and I think should of done differently, is not have announced that unconditional surrender of Germany was the Allies' ultimate goal. If the German officer corps, many of whom despised Hitler, had thought that the Allies would be willing to accept a negotiated surrender, maybe a military coup would have been successfulpre-1945.

Everybody honest with themselves knows that Jews have an inordinate amount of power in this country. This is especially true with television, communications, Hollywood, politics, law and big education. We have a Holocaust museum solely on that basis. Americans Jews want a Holocaust museum so that they can brow beat American whites, especially Christians.

I'm surprised it took 32 responses before somebody came along and had the guts to hit the nail right on the head.

And here come the antisemites! Jews control the world, Jews have horns, blah ,blah, blah....

This is in response to Emmy's comment earlier about the Japanese Internment. While it is true that it is not an entire museum, the Smithsonian has had a large permanent exhibit about this period of American history since about 5 years ago. It is a very well done exhibit that tries to make the point that we need to learn from our mistakes.

Before having a Holocaust Museum, we ought to have one for the 40 million aborted babies since 1973. America became as evil as Nazi Germany when child-murder became the norm.

There is something deeply bigoted about people who zero in on this issue as one worthy of extended discussion. Why even raise it unless you are hostile from the outset; Roger raised it to oppose it. <BR> <BR>You can certainly note that Holocaust survivors and their descendants constitute a notable segment of the American population, just as the descendants of many other refugees are now Americans. <BR> <BR>But yes, the US does deserve some shame regarding the Holocaust -- the US media were absolutely silent about the mounting atrocities in Germany until very, very late in the day, and one wonders if we would have entered the war at all without Pearl Harbor, or at least until a sub actually fired on Cape Cod. <BR>We also deserve shame for complicity or malign neglect regarding several other kinds of holocaust, but that doesn't negate the merit of a Holocaust Museum (note it's a museum, not a memorial), just because it's specific to one example. If anything, it justifies it as a testament to the capacity of any group of humans for mayhem in the name of some obfuscatory "higher" ideal. <BR> <BR>Having observed Roger's other posts, I would say his "ideals" are generally questionable anyway. He's not worth taking seriously, but this discussion has yielded some good points of debate. I'm just sorry that people get away with raising the question as if it's simply a neutral query. It's not and never will be. <BR>

Did someone invite the KKK? <BR> <BR>Can't we all just get back to travel talk and leave the bigotry behind. <BR> <BR>If I wanted to read some of this ignorant nonsense, I'd go to a rally with some of the white hooded people.

Dear Testament, <BR> Had you lived back in the 40s, would you have volunteered to lay down YOUR life on a suicidal attack on Nazi Germany in, say, 1942 before the USA was prepared to make a thrust into Germany? Germany was defeated and the concentration camps were liberated in 1945 because a lot of men laid down their lives to defeat an incredibly evil but militarilly strong regime. Nazi Germany would not have been defeated one second sooner if the American government and media had revealed what was happening in the concentration camps. Grow up, Testament.