http://query.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.htm...&tntemail0

That's the NY Times story.

The summary is that the men were behaving "strangely" but never made any direct threat. The original author said one of the men looked at her "menacingly" but that's wide open to interpretation.

The NY Times site is http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/20/bu...l?pagewanted=2

There does not seem to be any new information in it though.

It is unbelievable to me that we are still allowing ourselves to be put at risk by monumental lapses in air safety.

At some point, and unfortunately it'll come after another incident (as that seems to be the only way to really enact change in airline safety) we as a nation will need to decide what of our basic rights as Americans is more important - Life, Liberty or the Pursuit of Happiness.

To me, protecting the lives of innocent American civilians is the primary function of our government. Since when did we as a nation come to believe that Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness are paramount to everything else, particularly what we are really talking about isn't locking someway away in jail but merely ensuring they don't pose a threat to the Life of someone else?

We are faced with a simple choice - whose right's are more important and whose right's we are willing to concede as a Nation will be impacted.

If we're more diligent in screening those who clearly fit a terrorist profile will suffer some small inconvience to their liberty and their pursuit of happiness if that is achieved by killing Americans. If you believe the right of these men to their liberty is paramount, then you concede that the right to life of everyone else can be violated.

Just wondered--in a positive way--why were there so many (or any) air marshalls on that particular flight? I was under the impression that they are on random flights. Is it possible that they were targetting this group of men before the flight?

perhaps incidents like this one will make profiling acceptable. I am a 65 year old white women who has been pulled aside for extra an search on my last three flights Suiss Air, Air France, and Southwest Air. Muhaman Atta could be next to me, and I get pulled over.

I don't believe we really know that there were MANY air marshals on that flight or if the flight attendant offered that statement to possibly calm the passenger.

But as to profiling someone out there definitely likes white women. I have found that each and every flight I take I am examined much more closely and have to remove my shoes for closer scrutiny! I never have to do this when entering the federal building where I'm employed. I completely agree with herself and so do many of my friends.

I know that they no longer allow you to queue a line for the bathrooms on a plane but I also am concerned that check-in found that 10 percent of the passengers were middle eastern (Syrian) and each had ONE-WAY tickets. Not only suspicious but baffling...

I was also under the impression that there are no longer many air marshalls on flights due to cutbacks - which makes part of this story suspicious to me. If plenty of flights no longer have one, why would this one have many - wouldn't it have been smarter to not let these people board in the first place?

I also disagree with LN about Bin Laden - capturing one person isn't going to stop terrorism, which is what our president is making naive Americans believe.

She actually said in her first article that when they got off the plane she saw several men (who she assumed were marshalls) get off the plane and lead the 14 men somewhere.

I do think we bend over backward not to offend someone. I only know 3 people who have been pulled aside, and they were all blonde, middle aged-older white women. I have also seen more than one American man of middle eastern descent interviewed, who stated that they did not mind being profiled as long as it kept them safe while flying.(which is the same way I feel)

The article is a must read only if you are interested in the hysterical rantings of a right wing racist. The only thing that the "Middle Eastern men" actually did was to use the lavatory when the seat belt sign was on. How many times have you been on flights when non middle eastern people use the lavatories when the seat belt sign is on? Every flight I've ever been on people have done this. Further proof of the racist hysteria of the article is her quoting of Ann Coulter, a Neanderthal nut case who is even further right than Rush (if that is possible).

I was reading the article and feeling a bit concerned until I read that it included a quote from Ann Coulter - at that moment I realized it was probably nothing more than right wing propaganda. If not, why involve the quotes of an idiot hate monger like Ann Coulter? The entire article lost it's credibility in my mind the minute I saw her name associated with it.

At the risk of trying to judge someone I've never met, I can easily imagine some one getting really worked up by the mass hysteria some officials of this country have whipped up REAL OR NOT. I can picture perfectly my SIL working up this whole scenario on nothing more real than the physical presence of Arabic men.

Eventually, I've got to agree with RBC and rooster. If I was going to trust that this story had much truth, quoting AC dumps the whole lot for me, sorry.

Paranthetically -- "but its not the asians, blacks, whites, or christians, jews, or atheist that are blowing up planes and making threats" ...Timothy McVeigh?

That said, of course we are all a little more watchful of "Middle Eastern" men, somewhat fairly, somewhat not. And now having seen this reported in other independent news organizations, this is pretty scary. At least it sounds like everyone was watching them and following them, and they were interviewed afterwords. I'm not sure know how much more "racial profiling" (that is clearly happening despite apparent belief of this board otherwise)could do. I'm not sure why they just didn't instruct everyone not to leave their seats - at least they could have grounded the plane and arrested them for not listening to the flight crew.

Unfortunately, I do not think that we are much safer than we were pre-9/11.
What's happened to these threads before, apparently, is the inevitable political discussion that follows from that.

Well Mcat - this is what I wrote -

Until bin Laden is captured and the Taliban is destroyed I cannot feel that security has improved here within my country or any other country.

Most Americans look forward to the Taliban being destroyed because bin Laden and his henchmen were completely responsible for murdering 3,000 people in NYC, Washington, DC and Somerset PA. This is not any naive American speaking. It's probably time to start reading everything and not just information that makes one political party look good.

Has anyone thought perhaps the Mid Eastern passengers in question deliberately sought to make themselves suspicuous. Perhaps as a sick sort of joke amongst themselves, or more sinisterly (sp?) as a way to instill fear into the day to day lives of the average U.S. Citizen?? Possible, maybe???

Lillium, isnt that what a terrorist does?? Instill fear into us and scare us?? Even if it was a joke, they still meant to envoke fear and terrorize everyone on that plane.

Of all the possibilities, I find the joke theory least likely. Risking disappearing into a US/INS jail hardly seems worth it.

As to Bin Laden, killing/capturing him, won't stop all terrorism, but it is certainly the place to start. If nothing else, it is also a matter of justice. IMHO, I think the American people should be far more shocked and outraged he has yet to be caught or killed.

If you go to www.msnbc.com you can watch the streaming video.


From watching the detailed report I do not understand a few things:

Why did the pilot not make an emergency landing? Why did they continue to LAX?

If there were so many air marshalls on board the plane, why did they do nothing? Is this implying that a terrorist has to make the first dreadful move before air marshalls take control of the situation?

I would not have believed this if I had not seen it on MSNBC. Although I did not see it on the TODAY show (maybe I missed it) when did this happen??

Concerning NW Flight 327 on 6/29/04: Ms. Jacobsen's compelling read concerning the above flight has, without a doubt, ignited a firestorm of speculation on the internet, as well as the radio chat shows, concerning what was believed by the Jacobsens to be going on with this flight, namely a "dry run" for a terrorist attack. Her follow-up story was considerably less compelling, but that is not to dismiss the Jacobsens' concerns. The Jacobsens did what every responsible citizen should do when faced with what they perceive is odd, out-of-the-ordinary and "suspicious" actions or situations: they informed those in a position to take some action on the matter. Here, on board the aircraft, the flight crew, themselves trained to scan for suspicious behavior, had already alerted on the 14 Syrians behavior, and had notified the cockpit, who in turn had radioed the ground about the unease felt by some pax and crew concerning the Syrian pax.

However, there WERE federal air marshals (FAMS) on board the flight-since 9/11, there are thousands of FAMS-(trained law enforcement officers that are authorized in the use of force, including deadly force, on board an a/c) flying on board American aircraft all over the world. FAMS, in turn, are part of the nation's multi-layered system of security-from curbside to cockpit-parts that form a whole to strengthen and reinforce the aviation security system. However, on this flight, there was no need for the FAMS to do anything BECAUSE THE PAX IN QUESTION DID NOT THREATEN, OR OTHERWISE INTERFERE WITH THE FLIGHT CREW-WHICH IS A FELONY OFFENSE. The FAMS did, however, visit the lavs after the 14 Syrians went in and out, to make sure that nothing was left behind that might be threatening in nature. Nothing was. When the flight landed, without incident, it was met by a variety of federal and state law enforcement personnel. The 14 were interrogated, and released. The Jacobsens were questioned for an hour. The flight crew gave statements. All of the Syrians had received heightened security screening before boarding the aircraft, and all of them had their names run through various government data bases, with no returns. All of their instruments as well as any prosthetic devices, were screened. They played their gig in the desert, and then boarded a JetBlue flight from Long Beach to New York without incident. And that's the end of the story.

One can, of course, choose to characterize this incident in a number of different ways. However, one thing is clear: the multi-layered system of security put into effect after 9/11 WORKS. This flight was a prime example. Everyone did their part, the concerned citizens, the flight crew,the flight deck, the FAMS, the law enforcement personnel, and the government, staying not only on top of, but ahead of the situation. There are legitimate public policy questions arising out of Ms. Jacobsen's article that may be raised concerning whether, and to what extent, persons of Middle Eastern descent deserve heightened scrutiny in airport security screening-but to make the inflammatory comment that Ms. Jacobsen did- that she was surprised that the Syrians were not "arrested" after the flight landed, simply has no basis in fact-we have a system of laws in this country, and NO MATTER WHAT, they must be adhered to. They did nothing UNLAWFUL. Everything that could have been done for this flight was done-and the traveling public should feel good about that fact, not scared.

Maybe I'm being simplistic, but why didn't someone sitting beside one of these people just ask what was going on. It seems hard to believe that we as Americans are so full of fear that no one even thought to ask. I think if I had been sitting next to the guy with the dreaded McDonald's bag, I would have at least said, "Hey, buddy, what's up here?" rather than sitting there crying.

Some known terrorists on U.S. soil:

Neo Nazis
Gay bashers
Operation Rescue
Nichols and McVeigh

Racial profiling is stupid.