Hoax or actual episode -- updates?
 

Fodors cut off the "Terror in the Skies" thread after giving Sunstar the last word, but I for one would still like to have updates on this report -- confirmation or debunking -- if anyone comes across anything.

Here is original story, with a space inserted after the ".com" so it'll wrap instead of screwing up the framing on the screen (so be sure to delete that space if you're going to try to pull up the story). Repeat: this is for updates not continuation of the sidetracking debate.

http://www.womenswallstreet.com
/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=711

Woops, sorry -- this was originally on the Europe forum. I will repost there and please go there with any information to post.

-30-

Was it an Urban Legend??? What did I miss?

I read this article after a local radio station was talking about it last week.

Scary stuff that has you shaking your head and then asking yourself "What would YOU do" in that situation.

I tried to access the article and could not.

soccr, can you summarize? Thanks.

GoTravel, just go to www.womenswallstreet.com and you'll find the beginning of the article on the upper left corner of the page.

Summary is a bit hard but ... Jacobsen is reporting in great detail events on a Northwest flight from Detroit to LA involving the identity and actions of a group of 14 "Middle Eastern" passengers. Her take is that something extremely scary and dangerous was taking place, with ramifications for air security, profiling, homeland security, etc. There are many skeptics about this but also some updates that seem to validate at least some of her story.

Thanks for posting this Soccr. There are portions of the story that should be addressed possibly by Homeland Security.

There isn't enough Xanax in the world to calm me down if this happened on a flight I was on...

If in fact this is true, I would hope that Homeland Security is already aware of what's going on--curious that multiple air marshalls were on that particular flight.

As an aside, my family was on a Denver to New York flight 1 1/2 weeks before 9/11. Not to profile, but there was some activity on board with a middle eastern man that made my husband and I both nervous. In our pre-9/11 innocence we just shrugged it off. It was NOTHING like this woman supposedly experienced, though.

I caution everyone to stay calm until this is verified.

Thanks, Cassandra -- it is alarming but it also has some troubling aspects that invite skepticism.

(I note, however, that for some reason Fodors has already pulled the comparable thread I posted there, who knows why.)

I just finished reading all that was written on the European board and all that was written pro and against President Bush, Saddam Hussein, Michael Moore and the one person whose name I could not find "Osama bin Laden".

Until bin Laden is captured and the Taliban is destroyed I cannot feel that security has improved here within my country or any other country.

Saddam Hussein was a BAD person but Osama bin Laden is EVIL and wants to destroy all that Americans are and believe in.

I am an everyday, middle-of-the-road American who votes for the person and not the party and I need bin laden to be dealt with. And, believe it or not, there are many more Americans who feel just like me!

Ed Koch, the famous (or is it infamous??) democrat who was the NYC former Mayor said he was voting for Bush because of his stance against terrorism.

After reading the article, I went to www.snopes.com to see if this has shown up there, and whether it's an urban legend or not. I couldn't find any snopes information on this, so I contacted them to see what they can find out. Hopefully, I'll hear back from them soon. Maybe someone else has already tried this route and knows more? If not, I'll try to remember and post something if and when I hear from snopes.

GoTravel and anyone else, I didn't give you the website to invite a discussion on Bush's policies -- that got the first thread pulled.

Lee4, I checked snopes and urban legends and nothing yet, but I'm sure it'll show up shortly with either a red, yellow, or green light.

I just read that whole article and my heart was beating really fast through out. Is this true??

soccr, there are 2 other threads talking about this subject tonight and I noticed that someone else referenced snopes. THey said what they found was showing up as "undetermined." I guess I didn't search correctly b/c I didn't find anything. I expect I'll get an e-mail from snopes in the next few days and they'll send me to whatever they've got on it right now.

Also, this topic was discussed on Scarborough Country on MSNBC tonight (I found out based on another thread here) and I only caught the tail end of the show. Someone said the author of the story was a guest but I didn't see her. Right now, he's got more "experts" talking. This just gets more interesting all the time. Northwest has one of their guys on saying that this was not a "dry run."

Just wanted to clarify--the MSNBC show is still talking about this subject. I thought they were finished but everytime I flip back over there, there's another person being interviewed about this subject. I guess he's covering it for his whole show tonight.

Lee, what's the final word, over-blown or,,,,,,???

A follow-up article by Annie Jacobson is now on the www.womenswallstreet website.

cigalachanta, I have to admit I kept flipping through various channels last night and didn't see every bit of the show. I do know the Jacobsons were on again at the end of the show, with Annie asking lots of questions/making comments about how officials handled this and her husband saying he won't be getting back on a plane any time soon. They seem firmly convinced that this was a dry run by terrorists. I'm not sure what to think. There is another thread on this board with more comments about that show, so you might want to check it out.

wow, i hope this story is not true but i have a feeling it it. I dont care if its racist, but i think that every person who looks like they are middle eastern should be questioned and questioned espically if they were not born in the US or are muslium, i know it seems unfair but its not the asians, blacks, whites, or christians, jews, or atheist that are blowing up planes and making threats

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.htm...&tntemail0

That's the NY Times story.

The summary is that the men were behaving "strangely" but never made any direct threat. The original author said one of the men looked at her "menacingly" but that's wide open to interpretation.

The NY Times site is http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/20/bu...l?pagewanted=2

There does not seem to be any new information in it though.

It is unbelievable to me that we are still allowing ourselves to be put at risk by monumental lapses in air safety.

At some point, and unfortunately it'll come after another incident (as that seems to be the only way to really enact change in airline safety) we as a nation will need to decide what of our basic rights as Americans is more important - Life, Liberty or the Pursuit of Happiness.

To me, protecting the lives of innocent American civilians is the primary function of our government. Since when did we as a nation come to believe that Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness are paramount to everything else, particularly what we are really talking about isn't locking someway away in jail but merely ensuring they don't pose a threat to the Life of someone else?

We are faced with a simple choice - whose right's are more important and whose right's we are willing to concede as a Nation will be impacted.

If we're more diligent in screening those who clearly fit a terrorist profile will suffer some small inconvience to their liberty and their pursuit of happiness if that is achieved by killing Americans. If you believe the right of these men to their liberty is paramount, then you concede that the right to life of everyone else can be violated.

Just wondered--in a positive way--why were there so many (or any) air marshalls on that particular flight? I was under the impression that they are on random flights. Is it possible that they were targetting this group of men before the flight?

perhaps incidents like this one will make profiling acceptable. I am a 65 year old white women who has been pulled aside for extra an search on my last three flights Suiss Air, Air France, and Southwest Air. Muhaman Atta could be next to me, and I get pulled over.

I don't believe we really know that there were MANY air marshals on that flight or if the flight attendant offered that statement to possibly calm the passenger.

But as to profiling someone out there definitely likes white women. I have found that each and every flight I take I am examined much more closely and have to remove my shoes for closer scrutiny! I never have to do this when entering the federal building where I'm employed. I completely agree with herself and so do many of my friends.

I know that they no longer allow you to queue a line for the bathrooms on a plane but I also am concerned that check-in found that 10 percent of the passengers were middle eastern (Syrian) and each had ONE-WAY tickets. Not only suspicious but baffling...

I was also under the impression that there are no longer many air marshalls on flights due to cutbacks - which makes part of this story suspicious to me. If plenty of flights no longer have one, why would this one have many - wouldn't it have been smarter to not let these people board in the first place?

I also disagree with LN about Bin Laden - capturing one person isn't going to stop terrorism, which is what our president is making naive Americans believe.

She actually said in her first article that when they got off the plane she saw several men (who she assumed were marshalls) get off the plane and lead the 14 men somewhere.

I do think we bend over backward not to offend someone. I only know 3 people who have been pulled aside, and they were all blonde, middle aged-older white women. I have also seen more than one American man of middle eastern descent interviewed, who stated that they did not mind being profiled as long as it kept them safe while flying.(which is the same way I feel)

The article is a must read only if you are interested in the hysterical rantings of a right wing racist. The only thing that the "Middle Eastern men" actually did was to use the lavatory when the seat belt sign was on. How many times have you been on flights when non middle eastern people use the lavatories when the seat belt sign is on? Every flight I've ever been on people have done this. Further proof of the racist hysteria of the article is her quoting of Ann Coulter, a Neanderthal nut case who is even further right than Rush (if that is possible).

I was reading the article and feeling a bit concerned until I read that it included a quote from Ann Coulter - at that moment I realized it was probably nothing more than right wing propaganda. If not, why involve the quotes of an idiot hate monger like Ann Coulter? The entire article lost it's credibility in my mind the minute I saw her name associated with it.

At the risk of trying to judge someone I've never met, I can easily imagine some one getting really worked up by the mass hysteria some officials of this country have whipped up REAL OR NOT. I can picture perfectly my SIL working up this whole scenario on nothing more real than the physical presence of Arabic men.

Eventually, I've got to agree with RBC and rooster. If I was going to trust that this story had much truth, quoting AC dumps the whole lot for me, sorry.

Paranthetically -- "but its not the asians, blacks, whites, or christians, jews, or atheist that are blowing up planes and making threats" ...Timothy McVeigh?

That said, of course we are all a little more watchful of "Middle Eastern" men, somewhat fairly, somewhat not. And now having seen this reported in other independent news organizations, this is pretty scary. At least it sounds like everyone was watching them and following them, and they were interviewed afterwords. I'm not sure know how much more "racial profiling" (that is clearly happening despite apparent belief of this board otherwise)could do. I'm not sure why they just didn't instruct everyone not to leave their seats - at least they could have grounded the plane and arrested them for not listening to the flight crew.

Unfortunately, I do not think that we are much safer than we were pre-9/11.
What's happened to these threads before, apparently, is the inevitable political discussion that follows from that.

Well Mcat - this is what I wrote -

Until bin Laden is captured and the Taliban is destroyed I cannot feel that security has improved here within my country or any other country.

Most Americans look forward to the Taliban being destroyed because bin Laden and his henchmen were completely responsible for murdering 3,000 people in NYC, Washington, DC and Somerset PA. This is not any naive American speaking. It's probably time to start reading everything and not just information that makes one political party look good.

Has anyone thought perhaps the Mid Eastern passengers in question deliberately sought to make themselves suspicuous. Perhaps as a sick sort of joke amongst themselves, or more sinisterly (sp?) as a way to instill fear into the day to day lives of the average U.S. Citizen?? Possible, maybe???

Lillium, isnt that what a terrorist does?? Instill fear into us and scare us?? Even if it was a joke, they still meant to envoke fear and terrorize everyone on that plane.

Of all the possibilities, I find the joke theory least likely. Risking disappearing into a US/INS jail hardly seems worth it.

As to Bin Laden, killing/capturing him, won't stop all terrorism, but it is certainly the place to start. If nothing else, it is also a matter of justice. IMHO, I think the American people should be far more shocked and outraged he has yet to be caught or killed.

If you go to www.msnbc.com you can watch the streaming video.


From watching the detailed report I do not understand a few things:

Why did the pilot not make an emergency landing? Why did they continue to LAX?

If there were so many air marshalls on board the plane, why did they do nothing? Is this implying that a terrorist has to make the first dreadful move before air marshalls take control of the situation?

I would not have believed this if I had not seen it on MSNBC. Although I did not see it on the TODAY show (maybe I missed it) when did this happen??

Concerning NW Flight 327 on 6/29/04: Ms. Jacobsen's compelling read concerning the above flight has, without a doubt, ignited a firestorm of speculation on the internet, as well as the radio chat shows, concerning what was believed by the Jacobsens to be going on with this flight, namely a "dry run" for a terrorist attack. Her follow-up story was considerably less compelling, but that is not to dismiss the Jacobsens' concerns. The Jacobsens did what every responsible citizen should do when faced with what they perceive is odd, out-of-the-ordinary and "suspicious" actions or situations: they informed those in a position to take some action on the matter. Here, on board the aircraft, the flight crew, themselves trained to scan for suspicious behavior, had already alerted on the 14 Syrians behavior, and had notified the cockpit, who in turn had radioed the ground about the unease felt by some pax and crew concerning the Syrian pax.

However, there WERE federal air marshals (FAMS) on board the flight-since 9/11, there are thousands of FAMS-(trained law enforcement officers that are authorized in the use of force, including deadly force, on board an a/c) flying on board American aircraft all over the world. FAMS, in turn, are part of the nation's multi-layered system of security-from curbside to cockpit-parts that form a whole to strengthen and reinforce the aviation security system. However, on this flight, there was no need for the FAMS to do anything BECAUSE THE PAX IN QUESTION DID NOT THREATEN, OR OTHERWISE INTERFERE WITH THE FLIGHT CREW-WHICH IS A FELONY OFFENSE. The FAMS did, however, visit the lavs after the 14 Syrians went in and out, to make sure that nothing was left behind that might be threatening in nature. Nothing was. When the flight landed, without incident, it was met by a variety of federal and state law enforcement personnel. The 14 were interrogated, and released. The Jacobsens were questioned for an hour. The flight crew gave statements. All of the Syrians had received heightened security screening before boarding the aircraft, and all of them had their names run through various government data bases, with no returns. All of their instruments as well as any prosthetic devices, were screened. They played their gig in the desert, and then boarded a JetBlue flight from Long Beach to New York without incident. And that's the end of the story.

One can, of course, choose to characterize this incident in a number of different ways. However, one thing is clear: the multi-layered system of security put into effect after 9/11 WORKS. This flight was a prime example. Everyone did their part, the concerned citizens, the flight crew,the flight deck, the FAMS, the law enforcement personnel, and the government, staying not only on top of, but ahead of the situation. There are legitimate public policy questions arising out of Ms. Jacobsen's article that may be raised concerning whether, and to what extent, persons of Middle Eastern descent deserve heightened scrutiny in airport security screening-but to make the inflammatory comment that Ms. Jacobsen did- that she was surprised that the Syrians were not "arrested" after the flight landed, simply has no basis in fact-we have a system of laws in this country, and NO MATTER WHAT, they must be adhered to. They did nothing UNLAWFUL. Everything that could have been done for this flight was done-and the traveling public should feel good about that fact, not scared.

Maybe I'm being simplistic, but why didn't someone sitting beside one of these people just ask what was going on. It seems hard to believe that we as Americans are so full of fear that no one even thought to ask. I think if I had been sitting next to the guy with the dreaded McDonald's bag, I would have at least said, "Hey, buddy, what's up here?" rather than sitting there crying.

Some known terrorists on U.S. soil:

Neo Nazis
Gay bashers
Operation Rescue
Nichols and McVeigh

Racial profiling is stupid.