Going back to San Francisco
 

I was just daydreaming of winning the Mega Millions jackpot tomorrow (don't bother buying any more tickets, just send the cash along to me...cut out the middleman).<BR><BR>That got me to ask the question: "Where would I most like to bring my family?"<BR><BR>I immediately thought of San Francisco, which brought me to places to stay and eat. To stay, I thought of the Mark Hopkins and The Fairmont. To eat, there's the Blue Fox, Carnelian Room, Schroeder's.<BR><BR>The problem is, I haven't been to San Francisco in 10 years. Are these places still at the top of their game? If you won the jackpot, where would you stay...where would you eat?

GC,<BR><BR>I really would not advise that you go to SF. If you have not been to SF in 10 yrs., you will be surprised at what it has degraded to in terms of crime, homelessnes, etc.<BR><BR>This about sums up San Francisco's problem in a recent newspaper article.<BR><BR>It takes only a few blocks to realize that street people and panhandlers are as much a part of this gilded hill city as the Golden Gate, the Presidio, or the striking views of Alcatraz from Russian Hill.<BR><BR>San Francisco belongs to them as much as it does to the scions of Pacific Heights or former dotcomers now working in temp jobs. In this tolerant city, politicians who have sought to remove them from street corners have long been labeled callous - and often rousted from office. Here, urinating in public is a cherished right.<BR><BR>As the problem grows, however, San Francisco appears to be reaching its breaking point. According to some estimates, it has roughly the same number of homeless people as New York, even though it has one-tenth the population. Two years ago, nearly 200 people died on the streets - twice as many as in the state of Florida.<BR><BR>The homeless problem has become cataclysmic in San Francisco," says Gray Brechin, a historian at the University of California in Berkeley.<BR><BR>Since 2000, the homeless population of San Francisco has grown by more than a third, totaling some 7,300 people. In places such as the Tenderloin district, streets seem little more than galleries of "Checks Cashed" signs, strip clubs, and wobbly shopping carts packed with worn clothes, trinkets, and trash. Sidewalks double as sleeping quarters, and the smell of stale urine is rarely far away.<BR><BR>Mr. Brechin says he won't come into San Francisco, because he "can't take it anymore." Six-year resident Sonja Brandjes is sometimes afraid to walk the streets in certain parts of town. "It's worse than it has ever been," she says. "We just accept it because it has always been there, but I don't think it's safe."<BR><BR>For example, while most municipalities offer benefits to the homeless in the form of a small cash stipend and other benefits such as vouchers or shelter beds, San Francisco still gives about one-third of its homeless population its benefits all in cash - as much as $395 a month. At the same time, the number of deaths among the homeless has increased recently - from 103 in 1995 to 183 in 2000.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>

SF problem,<BR><BR>Thank you for you valued, consistent input....but I want to go anyway.<BR><BR>Zagat's kinda likes the Carnelian Room, Fodor's loves The Fairmont, but it doesn't do so well in the poll.<BR><BR>FYI, homelessness is a problem everywhere. Warmer cities tend to see the problem exacerbated because, frankly, you can't freeze on a heater grate in San Francisco on a January night.

just back from SF. i had gone forewarned of homeless people. despite being "steeled," it is not possible to ignore them unless you lose your moral conscience. they are young, severely mentally ill and ignored. as i left restaurants w/ a full tummy, having had a good night's sleep in a safe hotel, my over-riding memory is walking by countless ill and lost souls ignored by all of *us.* my memory is of beautiful sights, but sorely troubled by the disconnect between my state of *have* and theirs' of *not having.* i didn't know what to do ... by the way, we didn't stay or eat downtown SF as the cost was more than we chose to spend.

ALERT ALERT. The over-exaggerating <BR>SF bashers are out of medication again.<BR><BR>But they speak the truth having just returned from or still live there. <BR>YAWN.

SF,<BR><BR>Please spare us your unecessary postings. Anytime someone posts something critical, which happens to be the truth, about SF they are an SF basher, they work for the San Jose Chamber of Commerce, etc. These same old lines are getting boring. You have to admit the truth that SF is no longer a great city as you are constantly trying to lead people into believing. Please stop misleading tourists into wasting there money in SF.

SFTruth-Do you have this answer on a Word Doc so you can just continue to cut and paste it? Lame.<BR>As for the problems of SF, yes, they have them, BIG TIME, but to continue to describe it as almost being like a trip to Kabul, Beruit or Amsterdam, and you have to fist fight and battle your way down Market Street or other tourist sights, you DO NOT speak the truth.

Luv,<BR><BR>Contrary to what you may say, I do speak the truth. I think that you just can't admmit to the fact that SF no longer is a world class city.

But can YOU admit that San Jose never was and never will be???

Luv,<BR><BR>By the way, I have never compared SF to Kabul, Beirut, or Amsterdam. The article that SF problem posted speaks for itself.<BR><BR>Mike,<BR>What does San Jose have to do with anything? If you don't like SJ, that is okay. It I think that SJ has come a long way in the past 20 years with revitalization of its downtown. It has amenities of any large city.<BR><BR>What we are talking about here is San Francisco, not the the City of San Jose.

Mike,<BR><BR>What an arrogant statement to make about San Jose. It points to your lack of education. San Jose is a cosmopolitan city with a very diverse population, as well as a much more highly educated population with a much higher disposable income that that in SF. SJ has what SF offers in terms of culture and great restarants but with much better weather. As one of the most expensive real estate markets outside of Manhattan, it must be a desirable place, or no one would want to live there.

Contrary to what you may say, I do speak the truth. I think that you just can't admmit to the fact that SF no longer is a world class city.Contrary to what you may say, I do speak the truth. I think that you just can't admmit to the fact that SF no longer is a world class city.<BR>Contrary to what you may say, I do speak the truth. I think that you just can't admmit to the fact that SF no longer is a world class city.<BR>Contrary to what you may say, I do speak the truth. I think that you just can't admmit to the fact that SF no longer is a world class city.<BR>Cut n' Paste. Pretty easy to do! I'll remember this!<BR>Thanks!<BR>As for "the article", I don't recall seeing the source. Plus, take out the name "SF" and you could just about put any major city's name in there.<BR>

Luv,<BR><BR>Here is the source about the article regarding SF. Read it any weap. It THE TRUTH, like it or not you can't deny it.<BR><BR>http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0305/p01s02-uspo.html

You folks act like children, and stupid ones at that. Makes me glad I'm on the east coast.

Hello gc.<BR><BR>I have lived in San Francisco for 8 years, love the city and would never think of moving. It is wonderful. Like you said, all big cities in warm climates have homeless people.<BR><BR>Getting to your question, since I live here I can't tell you too much about hotels, but here are some of my favorite restaurants. Expensive: Boulevard, Fifth Floor. Moderate to Expensive: Chez Nous, Delfina, Slow Club, Il Cantuccio. Moderate: Luna Park, Cha Cha Cha. That is all that I can think of right now. But, if you have more specific questions about certain types of restaurants, feel free to email me.<BR><BR>Have fun.<BR><BR>Daria

Deb-Careful. The CS Monitor may declare there is no intelligent life East of the Mississippi.<BR>CSM. No unbiased source there. I think we finally answered the "Who Keeps Bashing SF?" question.<BR>It's like getting a fair review of Pres. GW Bush's policies from the SF Chronicle.

Weep,<BR><BR>I am not a Bush supporter or a Republican for that matter, but what is stated in that article is not biased opinion, it is factual. You know that what is said in that article is the truth, but you just can't admit it. Instead you resort to a lame technique of attacking the source.

Daria,<BR><BR>SF a big city in a warm climate???? Who are you trying to fool. I certainly don't think that 60 degrees for the high in July qualifies as being warm. LA is warm city with 8 times the population of SF, but does not have a homeless problem near as big as that of SF's

Why, xxx? Are you killing your homeless with the smog as biological weapon?

You really are a moron. The example I was trying to express about The SF Chron's opinion of Pres. GW Bush and the CS Monitor's on SF was to try and ....oh nevermind. It's obvious that you are very close minded. If you are that good of a Christian, then wouldn't you WANT to go to SF to assist the poor, homeless, drug addicts, etc? Or are you a "CINO". Christian In Name Only?

Weep, I won't even get into the SF debate (I live in San Jose, which is great to live in but hardly a tourist destination except in that it's close to other things like SF that people really do want to see) but have you even ever read the Christian Science Monitor? It's very middle of the road, leaning more towards the liberal than not I'd say. It's the only way in this area to get complete coverage of international events. I would tend to believe it's more unbiased than most papers.

monica-Thank you for a civil and <BR>non-cut and paste reply. The question to you is do you still go to SF an have a good time? We do all the time. This problem and the people have never bothered us and it's not due to the fact that we ignore them. <BR>I guess it's easier to attempt a backhanded boycott of a city than it is to help solve the problem.

To try to partially answer the original question and as an unbiased Palo Altan who thinks this is an inane argument, The Fairmont was renovated about 4 years ago. We had the pleasure of spending a meeting weekend up there last Spring, and they have really done a gorgeous job. All the old red flocked wall paper is gone and it is done in restful earth tones and gold. Still a wonderful hotel in a wonderful setting. Our group overfilled the ballroom for dinner but staff were professional and caring. Only downside was that I think it cost us $32 a day to park our car.

Hi GC:<BR><BR>I think everyone has a dream of winning the lottery. But if you need help finding something nice and affordable, I think I can give you a hand.<BR><BR>Hotel: Either the Fairmont of The Mark Hopkins are great choices. They are just right across from each other and both are four star hotels. I like the M Hopkins for the spectacular views (taller than the Fairmont) and it has a great bar on the top floor of the hotel. You can see the whole city, so if you don't stay there, at least go there for a drink. It's called :Top of the Mark. The Fairmont also has The Tonga Room, where they have great appetizers surrounded by a man made rain forrest.<BR><BR>I would also check out the newly opened Four Seasons Hotel on Market Street and the infamous Ritz-Carlton. The rates might be the same for all four of these hotels. Look out for specials.<BR><BR>Restaurant: I have not been to the Blue Fox or Schroeder's. I like the Carnelian Room for drinks, the food did not impress me. A couple of my favorite restaurants are: Expensive: Aqua, Boulevard, Kokkari, Fifth Floor, Dining Room at Ritz-Carlton, Fleur de Lys (all time fav) Moderate: Delfina, Butterfly, Bix, Chris Steak House, Crustaceans. <BR><BR>City gone downhill: Every city has its ups and downs. Part of the reason would probably be the global problem with the economy. I have lived here all my life and can not imagine living anywhere else. There are definitely certain spots to stay away from, but every city has those spots! Judge for yourself.<BR><BR>If you need additional help, feel free to email me.<BR><BR>Good Luck,<BR>Lucy

Weep: No, we don't go to the City much mostly because we're not too into the late nights and the drive back home is a killer. We did spend our fifth anniversary in SF and my only gripe was that it was impossible to park anywhere--we could have driven home in the time it took us to get where we were going. But that's easily solved by taking public transport, as is wisely advised repeatedly on this forum. We also go to the Zoo frequently with our toddler.

Daria, Kam and Lucy,<BR><BR>Thanks for the input. I wasn't sure if the Tonga room was still there! And, yes, I'm sure I could have looked for it on the website.<BR><BR>This was, and is, a serious question. I'm not sure if and when we're going...if we hit the lottery, we'll probably fly Saturday AM...if we don't, I guess we'll actually have to budget for the trip....bummer.<BR><BR>What is really fascinating is the level of emotion that this city brings up. I guess that means that the SF bashers really love the place, and see it as gone to hell. The SF defenders maybe see it as going from urban paradise to urban "normal", if there is such a thing.<BR><BR>I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.<BR><BR>Question, where on market is the Four Seasons?<BR><BR> My office used to be suite 1803, Steuart Twoer, One Market Plaza, as a reference point.

gc, For some reason, we've been to <BR>SF 4-5 times this year already (sometimes we only go once a year-we live in the Sacto area) and we seem to have more problems with rude tourists than the local drunks, homeless, etc.<BR>And it always seems to be a lot more tourists than homeless, drunks, etc.<BR><BR>Each trip we've had this year has been great. In fact, I really can't recall a bad trip to SF, other than getting stuck in some traffic jams. Especially when the Embarcdero Freeway was around and your car is overheating!<BR><BR>The Carnelian Room still has one of the best views of any restarant in the world. And when I hit the lotto, I intend to eat at every restaurant (will not fly So'west on the way back, tho) in the world and find out if it is true!<BR>Kal<BR><BR>ps-We'll be back in SF for another weekend on 7-27/28 for the Giants/Dodgers series. Park Hyatt or Harbour Court? Hmmmm.

Kam,<BR><BR>Thx for the note....we're east coasters, Boston 'burbs.<BR><BR>Now I'll really date myself. Is the Sheraton Palace, south of Market, still the Sheraton Palace?

GC-<BR>With regards to places to stay (and money wasn't an issue), I'd look at the Ritz Carlton and Mandarin Oriental. The Omni just opened in the Financial District, across from the BankAmerica Building. It looks beautiful in the lobby, but I haven't seen the rooms.<BR><BR>The Blue Fox closed quite a while ago. I think Alfred's (an old SF steakhouse) moved into the space. Good steaks at Alfred's, by the way. Schroeder's is still around and I think it's the same (food-wise). The Carnelian Room still has the wonderful views. <BR><BR>Lots of great restaurants in the City. Just depends on the types of food you like --&gt; Boulevard, Chaya Brasserie (Asian), Aziza (Moroccan), Ti Couz (crepes), Slanted Door (Vietnamese), Foreign Cinema (great food w/ movies playing on an outdoor screen in the patio), Cafe Bastille (French), Yank Sing (Chinese dim sum). Check out www.sfgate.com for a list of the 100 best restaurants in the Bay Area. The site also lists the best Cheap Eats in the Bay Area.<BR><BR>Have fun.

cg, The Sheraton Palce is still the Palace.<BR>I believe it went thru some major remodeling around 8-10yrs ago and it is, once again, a beautiful hotel!<BR><BR>We stayed there a few months after it was reopened. Very nice, old smallish rooms, high ceilings, tile bathrooms.<BR>Like the Westin-St Francis' old wing.<BR><BR>Some good restaurants too. Must be very nice restaurants since they asked me to leave (kindly "suggested" I go to themore casual bar area) due to my shorts and Hawaiian shirt!<BR>Kal

Hi gc:<BR><BR>As a previous poster pointed out, the Palace is still there. It's no longer the "Sheraton" Palace, but just "The Palace", even the sign changed. It's still a Starwood property, but now part of the Luxury Collection. Not sure if you needed that much info, but there it is. <BR><BR>Secondly, the Four Seasons is very near The Palace, on the south side of Market between Third and Fourth.<BR><BR>If I won the lottery and were visiting SF, I might consider spending a night at the Claremont resort if Berkeley. I've heard the views are to die for. And it's apparently one of the best urban spas in America. I like to promote Berekeley whenever I can :-) hehe

GC:<BR><BR>San Francisco is a dysfunctional city, and here is why.<BR><BR>It is ungovernable. The city of cute cable cars has abandoned large swathes of the city center to 5,000 vagrants, mostly alcoholics, drug abusers and the mentally ill. Homeless advocates, taking San Francisco's famed tolerance to ridiculous extremes, defend their lifestyle choice. The mayor, Willie Brown, has given up. Imagine New York, before Rudy Giuliani took office, except more corrupt and lethargic.<BR><BR>Supposedly cosmopolitan, San Francisco is in fact a collection of separatist ghettos. Mexicans live in the Mission, Gays live in the Castro, Chinese out in Sunset, and transient yuppies in the Marina; and they avoid each other as much as possible.<BR><BR>The city is entirely lacking in glamour. The old money is inbred, and the new money is too geeky. The pretty people are in Los Angeles or Miami; the intellectuals are in New York; and the carpetbaggers left as quickly as they came. San Francisco's Clift must be the only Ian Schrager hotel where visitors pitch up with their tradeshow tote bags.<BR><BR>Culturally, the city is still eating out on its reputation as home to Beat writers such as Allen Ginsburg. That was nearly fifty years ago now. In the meantime, San Francisco has produced Danielle Steel, and that is about it. Of the wilder writers I know, most have moved down to Los Angeles, which is warmer and cheaper and, believe it or not, culturally far more vibrant.<BR><BR>The Ballet is world-class, I am told, but there is something cringing about San Francisco's pride in stuffy European arts, as if it were still a raw frontier town hankering after the latest fashions from Paris.<BR><BR>Well, what about the alternative scene? The Yo-Yo man, a 300-pound mound of a man who dazzles with yo-yos. Where else, a San Francisco booster asked, would someone feel so free to express themselves? A typical San Francisco misconception. Personal discovery is rarely interesting and, in most normal cities, robustly ignored.<BR><BR>The main reason: San Francisco is not a metropolis on the scale of London or New York. San Francisco city is home to fewer than 1m people; and the 5m people in the Bay Area, as a whole are dispersed. And many inhabitants are unsure whether they actually want to be a grown-up city one day: local politics is dominated by neighbourhood groups which oppose new building.<BR><BR>Oh, yes, and the weather isn't that great. People think California, balmy. Evenings in San Francisco, which is closer to the icy ocean, are uniformly chilly; you can never sit out in the evening; and summer days in the city are too often fogbound and miserable.<BR><BR>During the economic boom of the 1990's, the region attracted thousands of highly-educated professionals from the East Coast of the US, and from Europe. And many of them are leaving because they are used to the buzz, wit, and bustle of a big city, and they are bored. San Francisco never quite achieved critical mass.<BR><BR>And those who will be left? The anti-social geeks, and the obsessives for whom the dream of changing the world is compensation for the lack of metropolitan amenities. <BR>

James, Great suggestion on the Claremont. We keep forgetting about that place. I have to check out "biddingfortravel" and see if it's been available on P'line, Hotwire, et al.<BR>Unless, of course, we win the lotto tomorrow night!<BR>Last winning ticket was bought about 10 miles away from us. oooooooooh<BR>We hit 5 of 6 numbers a few years back. Missed the 6th number by picking #30 instead of the picked #29. That close.<BR>We still got around $2,000 and it was just a month or two before our trip to Kauai. Rather be lucky than good!<BR><BR>The hotels out on the Berkeley Marina are pretty nice, too.<BR>His Lordship's still there with their great Sunday Brunch?<BR>Kal

Marco, Thanks for your input. <BR>I'm curious, tho.<BR>Where do you go on vactions?<BR>Any particular places you'd recommend?<BR><BR>I've see a lot of SF bashing here recently (some warranted-some, I feel not) but I seldom see a suggested alternative...and I don't wish to argue San Jose vs SF. :-)<BR>Thx,<BR>kal

Not sure about the brunch place you mentioned. Maybe you mean the one at the Claremont? I've never actually been, but I've heard great things. Of course, the brunch in the Garden Court in The Palace and the brunch at the Ritz-Carlton always seem like popular choices. <BR><BR>If you are in Berkeley, head to La Note (Shattuck & Durant/Channing), a little french bistro type place. The pancakes are AMAZING. They have:<BR>1) creme fraiche <BR>2) lemon gingerbread with poached pears OR<BR>3) oatmeal raspberry. <BR><BR>My pick are the lemon gingerbread. French toast there is great too (made with cinnamon brioche. YUMMM) The wait can be long and the service very french (hehe), but the coffee, pastries and food are to die for. <BR><BR>Oops, look like I've just been babbling about brunch.. maybe I'm hungry.

The Four Seasons Hotel is at 757 Market Street between 3rd and 4th streets.

What Marco writes is actually pretty true. But, aside from the homeless problem, these issues probably don't matter to most tourists. <BR><BR>Most visitors go to San Francisco to see the GG Bridge, Fisherman's Wharf, Chinatown, Alcatraz; ride some pretty boats and cable cars, and eat some sourdough bread. Then they go home happy that they've "seen" the city.<BR><BR>

James,<BR><BR>Thanks for the thought. I'd forgotten about the Claremont. I've still got my Cal Berkeley Bear Backer license plate holder!<BR><BR>I used to have business lunches in the Palace...simply elegant. I'm glad it's still there. I went to The Blue Fox infrequently, and attended a truly elegant wedding reception there.<BR><BR>Marco, trust me, the glass is, indeed, half full. Every great city, and SFO is a great city, has its share of problems, and dregs. That's what happens when you put a bunch of people together.<BR><BR>And, btw, the intellectuals are in Boston, the money and power are in NYC, and the lawyers come from Philadelphia. An over simplification? Just barely!<BR><BR>This is very helpful to me, and I hope you all. I'm learning a lot in this string!<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>gc

Marco, such insights!<BR><BR>Quick, tell me how useless it is to visit Rome and Paris. After all, what have those cities done recently?! Just resting on past laurels if you ask me.<BR><BR>Hehehehe<BR><BR>Puh-leeze

Kal,<BR><BR>For my vacations I usually visit the Reno and Lake Tahoe areas, Las Vegas, and my family in San Jose. I have also been to San Diego, LA, Monterey/Carmel, Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, Montreal, Kohala Coast, Hawaii; Colonial Williamsburg, VA and Washington, DC just to name a few places My favorite City for vacation is, without a doubt New York City.