chin chin- now we can't have too much water. It's enough to drive you to drink.

Darling Scarlett,
I havent' heard that since the 80's. A getogether to drink Crystall and mourn the foie gras wars somewhere in seafoam green would be nice! Cheers!

<<"I've heard, I've read" always seems to come up when talking about this.>>

I'm quite sure that few in Oregon's legislature have been beyond hearing and reading. But they love to be thought of as progressive. Any chance you could be talked into running for office here in Oregon, Stu? I'll vote for you.

StuDudley, I did say that I didn't know if the stories were true. Of course I can only say that "I've read the stories" because I've never been to a fois gras farm myself. Sure, the chickens would definitely like to be fed a lot, but the story that I read (in a legitimate magazine) mentioned things like (sorry if this is offensive) that the chickens and geese were kept in tiny cages with holes at the top just wide enough for their necks/head to stick out, and that pipes were shoved down their throats and food fed through the pipes so they can feed them easier. I somehow doubt this would be very pleasant to them, even if they do like to eat.

I'm not saying that fois gras should be illegal because I don't know all the facts. I was just stating that I read similar information and that it was enough to keep me away from it, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to quit eating it just because I wouldn't.

Tracy

>>the story that I read (in a legitimate magazine) mentioned things like (sorry if this is offensive) that the chickens and geese were kept in tiny cages with holes at the top just wide enough for their necks/head to stick out, and that pipes were shoved down their throats and food fed through the pipes so they can feed them easier. I somehow doubt this would be very pleasant to them, even if they do like to eat.<<

I would question that "legitimate" magazine you read if it said chickens are fed this way. Foie gras is not obtained from chickens - just ducks & geese. If you are trying to recall what you read a while ago, and if your memory is like mine, then perhaps the magazine said ducks & your recall was chickens.

Anyway, the dozen or so duck & geese farms I've passed while driving around in the Dordogne & Quercy regions of France, were very large open areas where the birds were allowed to roam around freely. The hole & tiny cage thing, I suspect, is just used at feeding time on some farms. Several times I've seen the farmer scattering feed around on the ground and you should have seen the clamor of the birds trying to grab their share of the food. Several years ago I took a cooking class from Hubert Keller - chef at one of our top restaurants here in San Francisco. He is from the Alsace region of France, where foie gras is produced. He said that the ducks & geese will eat everything put in front of them. There is no need to "force" feed them because all you have to do is to give them lots of food & they will gorge themselves. I suspect that the tube thing is used to give all the animals an equal food amount so that some dont's eat too little and others too much.

By the way, Magrets de Canard (very large duck breasts), are the by-product of foie gras. They may disappear from groceries & restaurants if the US farmers can't also use the foie gras from the ducks. The ducks used in France and the US are Muscovy/Barbarie ducks which are a cross breed and can not reproduce. They are on sale at my local grocery right now - dinner tomorrow.

Personally, I have more problems with people who hunt deer & other wild animals for the sport of it, than I do with farmers who breed them for food for me and to earn a living for themselves.

Stu Dudley

Stu, you're right, I may well be misinformed. (And thanks, Tracy, I couldn't have said any of it better myself!)My point to Faina was only that everyone draws their own personal line in the sand, and that it can in fact make sense to single out certain foods as unacceptable to eat. For example, many people avoid "white" veal but will eat steak; some avoid foie gras for health reasons but would eat Peking duck. After all, a foolish consistency...

Stu, I apologize, it was ducks not chickens so that was my typing mistake. It was a legitimate article in a magazine but obviously it was one-sided. Again, I don't know all the facts. I have never even been to France! (Although I am looking forward to my first trip, to Paris, in November).

I do appreciate your replies. I have to admit that I view the situation differently than I did before. While I will probably still steer clear of fois gras (if anything, for the simple fact that it just sounds disgusting, but then again I am an extremely picky eater) its nice to get information and a different viewpoint.

Tracy

<<My point..was only that everyone draws their own personal line in the sand, and that it can in fact make sense to single out certain foods as unacceptable to eat.>>

I agree. My point is that government shouldn't be drawing that line for me.

Stu- I understand that you have seen farms-- but I have seen some nice dairy farms, or chicken farms. I have also seen huge factory farm which bear NO resemblance to a small rural farm.

Factory farming is unlike nice little family farms people like to imagine their food was raised on.

Pretty much any mass produced food's history is very different from a small family farmed food.

The Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Welfare for the European Union found many examples of abuse as a result of force-feeding, including:

Birds are routinely confined to small cages or crowded pens.

Birds are force-fed tremendous amounts of feed via a 12- to 16-inch plastic or metal tube, which is shoved down their throats and attached to a pressurized pump.

The force-feeding may be performed twice daily for up to two weeks for ducks and three to four times daily, for up to 28 days for geese.

Force-feeding causes the liver to increase in size about 6-10 times compared to the normal size for a bird.

Increased liver size forces the abdomen to expand, which makes moving difficult and painful. An enlarged abdomen increases the risk of damage to the stretched tissue of the lower part of the esophagus.

Force-feeding results in accumulated scar tissue in the esophagus.

The liver can be easily damaged by even minor trauma.

In 1992, the HSUS sent a veterinarian to investigate a New York State foie gras producer, which resulted in a police raid and cruelty charges against the farm. Necropsies taken of the dead birds revealed many painful conditions: The force-fed birds had chronic heart disorders; ruptured liver cell membranes; cirrhosis; traumatic esophagitis; and lesions in their gizzards and intestines. Dead birds were found with food filling their esophagi and spilling out of their nostrils.

Ducks and geese are social animals who suffer when confined in individual cages. The confinement also can lead to lesions of the sternum and bone fractures, as well as foot injuries from the cage floors. Ducks and geese also suffer when they're not allowed enough water to swim and preen, which they do naturally in the wild.

Originally, all foie gras came from France, but now the United States has gotten into this cruel niche industry. Next time you go into a store or restaurant that sells foie gras, please let them know that a product that comes from force-feeding ducks and geese is more than you can stomach.

I do happen to know workers get bonuses for killing the fewest ducks. (They often puncture the stomach with the tube if not careful and kill the animal.


Personally I chose to eat almost no meat or animal products except for some local eggs and local farmers milk.

Sorry - i meant to quote this part"The Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Welfare for the European Union found many examples of abuse as a result of force-feeding, including:

Birds are routinely confined to small cages or crowded pens.

Birds are force-fed tremendous amounts of feed via a 12- to 16-inch plastic or metal tube, which is shoved down their throats and attached to a pressurized pump.

The force-feeding may be performed twice daily for up to two weeks for ducks and three to four times daily, for up to 28 days for geese.

Force-feeding causes the liver to increase in size about 6-10 times compared to the normal size for a bird.

Increased liver size forces the abdomen to expand, which makes moving difficult and painful. An enlarged abdomen increases the risk of damage to the stretched tissue of the lower part of the esophagus.

Force-feeding results in accumulated scar tissue in the esophagus.

The liver can be easily damaged by even minor trauma.

In 1992, the HSUS sent a veterinarian to investigate a New York State foie gras producer, which resulted in a police raid and cruelty charges against the farm. Necropsies taken of the dead birds revealed many painful conditions: The force-fed birds had chronic heart disorders; ruptured liver cell membranes; cirrhosis; traumatic esophagitis; and lesions in their gizzards and intestines. Dead birds were found with food filling their esophagi and spilling out of their nostrils.

Ducks and geese are social animals who suffer when confined in individual cages. The confinement also can lead to lesions of the sternum and bone fractures, as well as foot injuries from the cage floors. Ducks and geese also suffer when they're not allowed enough water to swim and preen, which they do naturally in the wild.

Originally, all foie gras came from France, but now the United States has gotten into this cruel niche industry. Next time you go into a store or restaurant that sells foie gras, please let them know that a product that comes from force-feeding ducks and geese is more than you can stomach.
"

I'd feel much better about things if I were a vegetarian, but I can't seem to stop eating meat a couple of times a week, it's such an ingrained habit, and, well, I like it!

But I do choose not to eat veal or foie gras, that's an easy choice.

Culled directly from the PETA website.

No it's from the Humane society of the United States.

>>In 1992, the HSUS sent a veterinarian to investigate a New York State foie gras producer, which resulted in a police raid and cruelty charges against the farm.<<

They mis-treated the animals, broke the laws, and got caught - why is this example relevent? I don't consider criminals to be representative of a whole industry, just like Enron & WorldCom are not representative of the entire buisness community (I hope).

I'm a 25 year dues-paying member of the SPCA and I don't even like to fish because I don't want to inject harm on wild animals. Breeding animals for food is pretty basic to any civilization, however. We might differ on what is "humane" - the farm in NY is not, and the farms I've driven by in France seem to use humane practices.

If our current laws are in-humane in your opinion, let others know (like you are doing here), try to persuade your local/federal government to see things your way to reduce in-humane practices, and do not order any foie gras if you see it on the menu (and politely tell the proprietor why you are not ordering it or perhaps why you are now going to leave the restaurant as a silent protest).

It seems to me that there are humane ways to produce foie gras. I believe the way they legislated here in California, was not to specify what is humane and what is not - they just banned the final result (foie gras). They cound have banned the import of it from other countries (the canned imported stuff is not that good, IMO), but the local farms could probably continue to produce it in a humane way.

As a side note, the government seems to be more concerned with passing legislation regarding fat ducks, than they are with fat humans. (please, don't try to make too much of this last statement - just a silly observation of mine)

It is my understanding of the California foie gras law that it gives the industry until 2012 to find a new way to produce foie gras that does not include force feeding. So far they (foie gras industry) say it can't be done. This seems to contradict the image of happy ducks running freely on the foie gras farm.

Hmmm... what exactly is force-feeding?

>>>It is my understanding of the California foie gras law that it gives the industry until 2012 to find a new way to produce foie gras that does not include force feeding.<<<

I just read a few articles on Google, and heretoday's comment is correct.

>>>So far they (foie gras industry) say it can't be done.<<<

Nothing I read stated that, but I did not read everything on Google. Where did you read this heretoday?? There is only 1 person producing Foie Gras in California. He seems to be satisfied with the bill, so perhaps he is optomistic that he can work out a solution that is more humane and does not "force" the food into the stomach the same way.

>>>This seems to contradict the image of happy ducks running freely on the foie gras farm.<<

The ones I saw seemed to be pretty happy and were running freely (although I didn't interview them). They were eager to be fed. I did not visit any mass production factories, only "artisan" producers who might use more civil techniques.

Stu Dudley

i don't want to sound like a former president, but how do you define "force-feeding"? isn't it a thirsty horse that given opportunity will literally drink itself to death? (or some other animal?) who's to say that ducks and geese don't love being overfed?

Inserting a tube into the mouth of the duck, down its throat and forcing up to 4 pounds of feed down at a time.

I'll have to get back to you on where I read food insudtry people who were unhappy with the law. L.A Times maybe? They were not foie gras farmers but food industry people, those who sold and resold foir gras. The story I had read was reporting the story and not editorializing, but it did quote some sources who were saying that even though the law allows till 2012 they doubted that any other way of producing foie gras could be fould since in order to be foie gras the gooser or duck liver needs to be 4x the normal size and in a certain state (I don't remember the term), but they said that the only way to achieve that was through force feeding. An animal may overindulge, but it is the rare creature that overindulges to the point of such condition as is necesssary to create foie gras.

It tastes so good! When served chilled and allowed to warm in the mouth the sensation is wonderful.