Did you know Hawaii used to be a monarchy ?
 

Hawaii used to have kings and queens.<BR>I have just found out about that !<BR>How cool.

So it was like the USA is now. Bush royal family and all. No democracy here, like the GOP boys like to proclaim after the 2000 appointment by the Supreme Court "this is a REPUBLIC not a democracy". And they were right about that part....unless it'll be just a monarchy for real. Newt Gingridge said in Time magazine recently that after George Jr rules for 8 years then Jeb should get the crown for the next 8.<BR>

Bob<BR><BR>Don't blame W or the Supreme Court. Instead you should blame (pick one from the list below)<BR><BR>a) The morons in Florida who couldn't figure out the ballot - even though it was prepared by Democrats<BR><BR>b) Al Gore for losing his home state and his home Congressional District<BR><BR>c) Al Gore and Bill Clinton for losing Arkansas<BR><BR>If Gore wins either Tennessee or Arkansas he is President today. But it is uncommon in America for people to take responsibility for their own mistakes. It is much cooler to blame someone else

Bob<BR><BR>Don't blame W or the Supreme Court. Instead you should blame (pick one from the list below)<BR><BR>a) The morons in Florida who couldn't figure out the ballot - even though it was prepared by Democrats<BR><BR>b) Al Gore for losing his home state and his home Congressional District<BR><BR>c) Al Gore and Bill Clinton for losing Arkansas<BR><BR>If Gore wins either Tennessee or Arkansas he is President today. But it is uncommon in America for people to take responsibility for their own mistakes. It is much cooler to blame someone else<BR><BR>Finally, you might like to look up the correct spelling for Newt's family name as it will give your future rants a bit more polish.

Why don't you throw in the Adams (Dad & Jr) and/or the Kennedy clan? Let's see, the Kennedy's... dad paid for votes and had the mob support his son all the way to the White House and Ted got away with killing a girl. We could go about Bobby but I hate pick on the dead.

Knowing you can buy a video on the last Queen of Hawaii, Liloukilani through PBS.org in the shop video section. It is only 20 bucks. Hawaii has an extraordinary and heart renching history. IT'S A STATE, WE SHOULD ALL KNOW THIS STUFF. Hawaiian culture is 1000+ years old a lot of interesting info to absorb.<BR><BR>A short book you can buy online "A concise history of the Hawaiian Islands" is only 85 pages long and a great read. Want to tackle something more meaty consider "the shoal of time" a bit wordy but considered by many to be standard reading on Hawaiian history.<BR><BR>But if you are so intrigued by the monarchy one of my favorite books is "Hawaii Story" by Queen Liloukilani.<BR>In her own words the happenings of her times.<BR><BR>Last but not least one of the most heart filled facts I learned on my first trip to Hawaii was about a song we all associate with Hawaii. I think I have even heard it on Loonietoon (sp)Cartoons ...Do you know the song "Aloha Oi". It was popularize on the mainland US as a good bye song to tourist leaving the island in the early part of the 20th century. Actually one national Park Lodge in Bryce canyon has staff still singing this as tour buses leave (changing Hawiian words of course). In any event this song if you recall communicates sadness and loss. When cruise lines pulled out in the 20's and 30's women on board would cry as they played this song not even understanding the Hawiian words. Well this song was written by Liloukilani while inprisoned in her residence (two rooms of palace)and after the siege of Oahu by American troops. She was not allowed to read but could write and compose music. She was saying good bye to a sovreign Hawaii in the song. That just breaks my heart a little every time I hear it. Go to Hawaii see the beauty that remains and imagine the beauty that has been lost.

Good job everyone, hijaking Knowing's post.<BR><BR>Yes, Knowing my dear, Hawaii used to be a monarchy. Next time you are in Hawaii you should visit the Iolani Palace on Oahu. It's the only royal residence on US soil. You'll get to tour the palace and hear about how the Queen was under house arrest by the US government.

Thanks Sarah and StickToTheTopic !<BR>I'll will look into your suggestions re:<BR>books and places to see ! <BR>I've just returned from my 1st trip ever to Hawaii (i.e. Maui) and was surprised to find out about the monarchy. I probably should have heard something about it but didn't...<BR>Thanks :) <BR>

And Don Ho used to be the king.

that's stupid coming from you

Another good book is "Hawaii's Story" by Liliuokalani herself describing how Sanford B. Dole (yes, Dole Foods- bananas, pineapples, fresh fruits & vegs, juices, etc.) and the other haole planters virtually stole Hawaii from the native monarchy for themselves in the name of the USA. One of the last examples of "manifest destiny" or "the winning of the west".

...and the US mainland belonged to the Indians before it was taken from them.<BR><BR>As Dick Gregory said, "Only the white man(Columbus) could discover a country that was already occupied.

The USA's role in the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy is one of this nation's most shameful episodes. Culturally, Hawaii does not belong as a state in a federation thousands of miles away with an almost completely different history. As a firm friend of Hawaii, now and forever, the USA should let Hawaii go on its own independent way. If Hawaii wants a constitutional monarchy, they should choose it if they wish.

This gets my vote for the "DUH" post of the week. <BR><BR>Of course it used to be a monarchy, didn't you have US history in high school? Hey guess what, we bought Alaska from the Russians, and Lousiana from the French!

Some of the above posts are only partially correct. If you study Hawaiian history carefully you'll learn that the U.S. was the good guy in a three-way struggle over Hawaii. If Hawaii hadn't become part of the U.S. it would have been taken by Britain or Japan. The islands were also coveted by Russia. <BR><BR>Mainland U.S. subsidies to the island over the years enable Hawaiian residents to have a substantially higher standard of living than they would enjoy if they were independent.

Helen's view is one that holds the American government accountable for nothing. It is also highly speculative that the Japanese and British would either invaded Hawaii and been able to maintain a grip.<BR><BR>Helen What kind of logic is that? You think it is acceptable for us to walk into any legitimate country and take over because someone else will do it if we don't. <BR><BR>As to whether we have benefited the Hawaiians?... sure they have enjoyed some benefits but that would be true of the Palestinians in Israel too. For both groups weighing the benefits against the historical loss of life, culture, land, the scale is tipped much farther in the direction of loss.<BR><BR>I think we get in trouble as Americans when we defend the U.S when it acts in unconscionable ways. I don't think you have to side step justice, humanity or your thought process to be patriot. The best citizens hold legislators accountable for bad policy.<BR><BR>Knowing always fun to learn something great that you wanted to yell it out to all of us.<BR><BR>

Helen,<BR><BR>I suppose you also approve of the missionaries that went to Hawaii to "save" the native people.<BR><BR>Did it ever occur to you that we should not have intervened with Hawaii unless we were asked to by the monarchy.<BR><BR>The mainlanders wanted the land for themselves.<BR><BR><BR>

Not to mention the havoc we wreaked on the environment and species of the Hawaiian Islands. One example was the introduction of the mongoose to the Hawaiian islands. Some idiot dreamt up this idea to help erradicate the overpopulation of rats we brought over on our ships. Unfortunately, no one bothered to check on what mongooses ate -- not rats but bird eggs. Thus, hundreds of species of rare birds were destroyed.<BR><BR>The destruction of culture and environment in Hawaii due to colonialism is almost on par with what missionaries and colonialists have done to the African continent. <BR><BR>This is the reason we in the 24th century have adopted the rules of the Prime Directive. Live it and learn it.

Karen,<BR>It's highly speculative the Japanese would have grabbed Hawaii? Uh, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor then slaughtered people throughout the Pacific Rim and occupied it completely. That's called 20th century history, not speculation.

Jim, um, have you just come through a space-time worm hole? The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor AFTER Hawaii had become part of the United States. The Japanese bombed a US military base - right? Get your timeline straight, buddy.

Captain Picard,<BR>Yes, I understand the Japanese bombed a US military base. I don't want to start World War II over this, but my point was the Japanese clearly had territorial ambitions in the Pacific. We know that because it happened. So to say Japan grabbing Hawaii is speculation doesn't hold water -- Japan grabbed whatever they could in the 1940's.

Jim we were talking about 1895. Pearl Harbor was a response to an oil embargo the US had in place without our presence the Hawaiians would not have lost 77 civilians on that day..and even if we were discussing 1941 when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor if you knew the attack they did not have the power for a sustained attack. The economy was suffering greatly and they were fighting on too many fronts. They were not able to maintain a hold on China and other spots it is hardly likely that they would have maintained a hold on Hawaii. IF AND ONLY IF THEY DID TRY TO DOMINATE HAWAII THAN THAT IS WHEN THE US COULD BE THE GOOD GUY AND ACT AS PEACE KEEPERS not invaders or conquerors that redistributed the wealth, land and political power Before this.

As recently as the 1800's Hawaii's islands were called the Sandwich Islands. Maui was spelled "Mowee" and Kauai "Kowee".<BR>I own some antique maps with such designations on them.

Jane you understand that Hawaiians were not referring to this place as the sandwhich islands, yes?<BR><BR>It has always been called Hawaii (Haviee) or Hawiee, Kauai (Kawiee) still pronounced this way by people who live there. What we know on the mainland is a slang pronounciation we created.

The James Michner book "Hawaii" gives a wonderful overview. Thought the book is fiction, many of the events and characters are based on historical fact.<BR><BR>The beginning of the book, describing the creation of the islands thorugh the author's imaginationa and research is fantastic!<BR><BR>

karen/pele/picardo (one & the same):<BR><BR>I agree absolutely with Helen's suggestion that Hawaii has benefited hugely from U.S. stewardship. If Hawaii was to suddenly become a monarchy right now their standard of living would plummet due to higher prices and lower government income.<BR><BR>In the 1880's landowners, such as Sanford Dole, may have encouraged U.S. intervention but the real issue was not the land. It was Pearl Harbor and it was a strategic issue for the U.S. No less important then than getting a handle on terrorists is for us today.

People are more than just economic animals, Helen and xxx. This is true despite the best efforts of economic determists and libertarian rationalists. For instance, Puerto Rico benefits from the USA's parental superivision yet all proud Puerto Rican patriots ought to be for independence. Same goes for the Quebec/Canada situation as well as Basques/Spain or Kurdistan/Turkey, Iran and Iraq. Culture should trump money if we are to remain human.

Being part of the U.S. helps more of our native Hawaiian culture to be preserved. Look at what has happened to other Pacific island cultures when they have had to make it on their own.

xxx,<BR><BR>You seem to think the criteria for taking over Hawaii was that they would "benefit" from being affiliated with the US.<BR><BR>Much of the world thinks that is how this country operates. That it is ok to usurp native culture and customs because the US determine that they will be better off with the US determining what is good for them.<BR><BR>You could use that logic to invade almost any country. Did it ever occur to you , that native Hawaiians wanted to keep their language, and culture?<BR><BR>As I type this I realize that Helen and xxx may be Mormons that believe converting people to their ways. It's scary.<BR><BR><BR>

xxx that is not true I always understood the troops that walked into Honolulu 1895 to be a hired military by American businessman. The presidency at the time thought it was very unlawful but turned away and did nothing to stop what was going on. You know it is not patriotic to be stupid it's just stupid.<BR><BR>Again Hawaii is a different economy there were far more people running plantations and turning a profit to compare it with other less developed pacific island economies. Perhaps the plantations owners and Hawiians could have continued a business relationship. I don't think there needed to be a complete military coup. And the redistribution of wealth and political power that took place DESERVES OUR APOLOGY.<BR><BR>BTW The goal of the sovereignty movement (strongest faction) is not to take back all land right now they are looking for seeded land that were promised to the Hawaiians years ago so that Hawaiians can live in their homeland. They want to do this by getting "indiginous peoples status", Eskimos have this along with some Indian Groups. The US is stingy about who it gives this status to because they know many are owed it and they still don't want to give back land. So they don't offer it regularaly and not even small groups are compensated. It should be appauling to you that more Hawaiians live in California than Hawaii. That mainland Americans and Japanese can buy up land over Native Hawaiians that desend from 1000 years of ancestry in Hawaii. <BR><BR><BR>XXX and Helen what is just appauling about your comments is that you completely side step American accountabilty. I guess this is what makes Americans appear obnoxious and arrogant. This is why you see people in the street dancing in the street at our distruction. <BR><BR>

Karen, I believe these were Captain Cook's names based on a combination of perceptions of language of the natives and his own ideas.

Send all of the Haole's baack to United Statess and Japaneses back to Japan. Hawaii iz for Hawaiians.

The native Hawaiians will get screwed. <BR><BR>For example, our history of taking care of the Indians is deplorable.<BR><BR>We have failed to live up to agreements and squandered oil and mineral rights due the Indians. Even US Judges have condemned the Bureau of Indian Affairs for its lack of financial controls.

If you call someplace Paradise, kiss it goodbye.

Huh? This is a stupid debate. There are no true native Hawaiians left, even in Hawaii or California. There are people with Hawaiian ancestry, but all of those people also have some European ancestry. Many also have Asian ancestry and all are Americans. Pele sounds like a golddigger.

Note to Captain Picard about timelines.<BR>Pearl Harbor bombing December 7, 1941<BR>Hawaii becomes a state on August 21, 1959.<BR><BR>You need to get your timelines correct.<BR><BR>Just because a US military base was bombed, doesn't mean US soil was bombed.<BR>

Wrong Rusty there are 11,000 pure Hawaiians left in the islands more in California, Oregon, Washington and Alaska state. I think the total number is in the neighborhood of 40,000 worldwide. You can't even live on Niihau (sp) if you are not full blooded. The number is still so small compared to the 3-400,000. that lived pre Captain Cook days. But the fact that the number is small means that compensation would not be so difficult. AND IT IS NOT A DEBATE we are sharing knowledge here.

Rusty,<BR><BR>I beleive that most of the Hawaiians on Niihau are Native Hawaiians.<BR><BR>The reason that there aren't more on the other islands is because of the intervention of others...or haven't you read the whole thread?

Pele, correct me if I'm wrong but don't the native Hawaiians on Ni'ihau have a really crappy living situation over there?

Lisa, the islands of Hawaii because U.S. territory in 1900. Yes, it was U.S. soil that was attacked, not an independent Hawaii. Would you say that Washington D.C. is not part of U.S. soil? After all, it is not a state.