TxTravelPro, back in the 80s, I used to board my barrel horse at the barn run by the couple that founded LSHSRA. :-)

Xbt, I hope you don't like to eat and wear clothes, because those materials were provided for you by a farmer. I have the utmost respect for people who work the land and provide food and raw materials so that I may live comfortably.

I never said that "there is nothing of interest in downtown Dallas." On the contrary, the Dallas World Aquarium and the Sixth Floor are two of my favorite places to take visitors!

BTW, no plans that I have seen link Grapevine to DART anytime in the forseeable future...

Christie, I was thinking of the DART station planned for the top of DFW airport. It will effectively serve Grapevine.

Also, the Cotton Belt line will be converted to a commuter rail line, like the existing TRE. That will serve Grapevine and East Tarrant county.

Do you realize that Texas used to have enormous herds of velcros? Yes, they proved very useful with clothing, with the male and female velcros sticking together. Unfortunately, with the warmer, more humid weather in Texas, they would stick together more often during mating season, and this caused the species to rapidly diminish. Fortunately, we still grow them in enormous feedlots (with the sexes segregated, of course).

Next week, I'll talk about the native polyesters that covered the state in prehistoric times... free-ranging until the white men arrived and wiped them out...

By now OP is back home, but I'll jump into this p*ssing contest anyway - SA offer genuine history and a family- and tourist-friendly, service-oriented ambience. Dallas offers the same cookie cutter stores that you can find in any other city along with horrible traffic, seasoned with a heavy dose of pretentiousness as a reponse to a well founded sense of being second tier. Neither place is exactly ideal for strolling with a 9 month old (if anywhere is!)

<i>As Boswell, said, &quot;If you're tired (bored with) London, you're tired of life.&quot;. And Dallas is much more of a city now than London in Boswell's day.</i>
Well, that was almost 250yrs ago so it would seem to be a pretty backhanded compliment !
Knowing both, both have their place but Dallas is not London, and vice versa.

Seamus, whatever San Antonio's ambience may be...

Dallas, with a metro population of 6 million people, offers shops that a metro with, say, a million and half people, could never possibly sustain. San Antonio does not have an REI outdoor shop, nor does it have an Urban Outfitters outlet, and if you want to go to a Hermes outlet, forget San Antonio. Same with Lalique glass... Dallas is the only place to get it in the 5 state region. If you want Ikea, forget San Antonio, look in Dallas (soon) or Houston.

The Half Price used bookstore in Dallas is the largest book shop in Texas.

Not just big stores... the Soda Pop shop in the Bishop Arts District is unique... more brands of soft drinks than you could imagine.

Restaurants? Specialized eateries go to Dallas from New York, not to SA. Il Molino opened a branch here, as did Grand Luxe in the Galleria, and Nobu is on the way. Yes, Dallas is second tier compared to New York or Paris or London, but SA isn't eveb on the map.

You're wrong about strolling. Dallas' McKinney Avenue is a great pedestrian oriented boulevard, perfect for a 9 month old, especially if you are giving him a ride on the McKinneyt Avenue trolley.

Traffic? The larger the city, the more places worth going to, the more traffic and people there are that want to get there. SA has few places to journey to out of the Riverwalk area, in comparison to the many places you can go in metro Dallas.

There are good reasons why metro Dallas has been able to accumulate a population of almost 6 million people, whereas San Antonio, with its slow growth, can barely hang on to a million and a half. People choose a city to migrate to for many specific reasons, but each personal reason is a variation of the same need... people feel they'd be better off living in metro Dallas instead of metro San Antonio, in spite of its Disneyesque Riverwalk.

xbt your love for Dallas is admirable - but surely people have different tastes. Dallas and SA both have their charms - why does one have to be better than the other?

As for ranches and rodeos, it is a part of the history of the state - it is fascinating. If I were an out of towner - that would be more fascinating to me than one more store - who cares if it is
not in 5 other states. But to some else that store maybe the reason for visiting Dallas. Vive la difference

Indie, good questions. Why does Dallas have to be better than San Antonio? I don't suppose it HAS TO BE better, but apparently it is, in the opinion of the public. Dallas outvotes SA, 6 million to 1.5 million.

Is Dallas a better city than San Antonio? Well, is New York better than Buffalo? Is San Francisco better than Sacramento or Bakersfield? Is Paris better than Lyon? Is London better than Manchester?

Many people would say yes, I'd also say yes, to all those questions.

Is the Riverwalk a better tourist attraction than the West End in Dallas? Maybe, maybe not. Is Dallas better at doing what a city does - assembling critical masses of people to support specialized human activity? Absolutely yes.

I've been watching this &quot;debate&quot; go back and forth for a while - and can't believe it's still going on.

xbt - you obviously love Dallas - everyone gets that. I just don't understand beating this horse to death.

I've lived in both San Antonio and Dallas - and personally, I liked San Antonio better. But that's just my opinion. You know what they say about opinions.

Doesn't mean San Antonio is &quot;better&quot; than Dallas. The two cities are completely different.

I say just give this a rest already.

Chepar, you're one of the 1.5 million that votes for San Antonio.

Tell you what... I'll give you an &quot;official&quot; pass to stop reading this thread if you want... we'll miss you, though.

As for me... I think the subject is fascinating, and thought provoking... an objective and reasoned comparison of Dallas and San Antonio.

xbt - who made you the hall monitor to hand passes out?

I find that you consider your comparisons objective and reasoned amusing. I guess it's objective and reasoned if it favors Dallas.

Shut up already. People go to Dallas because of employment not to go shopping. After they are there awhile they begin to believe they &amp; their city is better then others. The kicker is when they go on vacation they go to places like San Antonio for the history, ambiance, &amp; to relax away from the pretentious people that inhabit Dallas.

Chepar, Shea, I guess you two still want to grumble and grouse.

I won't address the substance of your gripes... because I don't see the substance of your gripes.

If someone wants to hear some reasons to visit Dallas, in preference to San Antonio, I'll be ready and willing to accomodate them. I think Dallas is the better city in most, albeit not all, categories of leisure travel, and I have a lot of objective factual information to back up my claims.

What I have to say may or may not perk up San Antonio's civic ego, but it will definitely assist the traveling public in having a good time.

xbt - I didn't start out with the intent to grumble - only to point out that your impassioned and single-minded defense of Dallas hardly seems objective, despite what you say to the contrary.

It's your opinion. That's it. SA and Dallas are both great cities, but very different. Your saying Dallas is &quot;better&quot; is not objective, because that's your OPINION. Facts may be objectively compared, but interpreting the facts one way or the other is completely subjective.

Don't feel you have to reply ad nauseum to everyone who thinks differently. You love Dallas and feel it's better than SA. I (and everyone else) gets it.

Chepar,

I said: &quot;I think Dallas is the better city in most, albeit not all, categories of leisure travel, and I have a lot of objective factual information to back up my claims.&quot;.

I think we bot agree on the difference between opinopn and measurable, objective, factual information.

OK, Chepar, I think I see your next point coming. You might say that no matter what the objective points of evidence are, it's possible to interpret them either to the benefit of one city or another.

In that case, we'll let the audience decide.

Another note from Northwood Hills (Dallas):
I pay nearly everything on line or via CC or d/e/w from my humble checking account.
For the first time, Dallas (City, County - I'm in the RISD) offered online payment of my property taxes - unfortunately, they wanted a $55.00 &quot;convenience fee&quot; - I think NOT - I'll use one of my ancient $0.37 snail mail stamps.
M

Dallas or San Antonio?
Neither, if these are the people I would meet there.

Anita, that remark was uncalled for...

We all may have legitimate differences of opinion among ourselves, but I, for one, want to respect the people I discuss or debate with, even if I don't agree with them.

I see nothing wrong with debate... I think it's healthy. And the subject of this thread is, in fact, the relative merits of San Antonio versus Dallas.

If I, personally, have treated any of you with less than respect... I apologize. I want to convince you with my arguments, not antagonize you.

Anita, I think you should be civil, as called for in the Fodor's rules of discussion. And being derogatory about &quot;the people I would meet there&quot; is not civil.

&quot;Why does Dallas have to be better than San Antonio? I don't suppose it HAS TO BE better, but apparently it is, in the opinion of the public. Dallas outvotes SA, 6 million to 1.5 million.&quot;

Is Mexico City better than Dallas? Sao Paolo better than Dallas? Calcutta better than Dallas? Hong Kong better than Dallas? Lagos, Nigeria better than Dallas? By your theory, they outvote, so clearly they are! Bigger is better! Yeeee-ha! OR maybe they're apples and oranges. But then again, maybe Dallas and SA are apples and oranges too, could it be so?

MY 2 cents.

&quot;By your theory, they outvote, so clearly they are!&quot;

Your fallacy, DanielWilliams... Brazilians and Nigerians and Americans don't vote in the same elections, now do they?

So there's no such thing as an election that pits Lagos against Dallas.

There are, however, elections that pit Dallas against San Antonio.

If we did have a truly international election, that is, people anywhere in the world were able to move anywhere else in the world, politically and financially, places like Lagos would diminish and places like Dallas would gain... on the theory that Dallas is a better choice than Lagos.

So Calcutta is better than Bangalore then... by your theory. Detroit is of course better than Ann Arbor. Detroit better than Martha`s Vineyard. b

Enough already! Both are large Texas cities and have good and bad points from a visitor's perspective.

&quot;So Calcutta is better than Bangalore then.&quot;

Only if Calcutta and Bangalore were competing for the same group of immigrants. Of course, they were not. They are basically in different
nationalistic regions, with different languages and ethnicities, embedded in the Indian subcontinent.

Yes, I'd say that Detroit, in spite of its center city decay and poverty, is a better city than Ann Arbor. Its greater diversity and its sheer population size allows for critical masses to form that create a richer urbanity than a small city like Ann Arbor.

Of course, some people prefer Ann Arbor to Detroit. For one personal reason or another. But in making a broad-based determination of overall quality and value, the majority sets the general rule.

Just as if the vast majority decides that the sun rises in the east, and not the west.

Dallas and San Antonio have both been competing among the same target group of immigrants, both from the north and from the south.

Some have chosen San Antonio, for one reason or another. But if you combined their metro populations, 80% would be in metro DFW, and 20% in San Antonio.

If SA is a better place to migrate to, how did this population imbalance occur? Is 80% of the population composed of lunatics and idiots?

A more likely explanation... people perceive Dallas to be &quot;better&quot; than San Antonio, and have felt that way for the decades it took to build the cities.

Interesting site...
http://www.bestplaces.net/html/crime...583&amp;view=T

It's statistics don't correspond to the real choices people actually make when they move from one town to another..

It doesn't predict reality.

It's an interesting assessment, yours, xbt2316. Certainly Dallas has a larger economy, enough to support a larger population. But is bigger always better?, that is the crux of what I'm getting at here. Amuse me by considering Lagos, Nigeria, which I had the pleasure of visiting in the 1990s. Lagos is a large city, at least 10 million people with growth all the time, fraught with problems in infrastructure (sewage, garbage disposal, the roads are totally chaotic, coming out of the airport 20 people come at you at once). I can't say that I find it a nice place to visit. In my few times in the city, I always just want to get out. Jos in the north is a lot more peaceful, calmer. It's a pretty similar population in both.

As an example, I went to an outdoors Funk Brothers concert; it was so crowded as to not be fun... finding a bathroom was a pain, people

Sorry, sent that one off too quickly by mistake. Jos is much less populous I meant to say.

Anyhow, I'm not saying that Dallas is anything like Lagos. But larger cities can be strained (traffic, pollution, etc...) from their higher populations (sometimes drawn only for work not because they love the city) is my point, to make them a less pleasant place to visit. And this is coming from one who totally loves some of the biggies he's been to (New York City, London, Paris), but not all (LA, Lagos).

I'm not even as convinced as you are that Dallas is competing for the same immigrants as San Antonio; the latter struck me as a much more bilingual English-Spanish city, which probably draws a different type of person than Dallas. Just like Bangalore and Calcutta draw different languages/ethnicities or Montreal and Toronto draw different linguistic groups, the same may go for SA versus Dallas. (By the way, I'm passing through SA in a few weeks and can't wait... I love how compact and walkable the city center is!)

Anyhow, cheers to you and thanks for sharing what you love about your city!

DanielWilliams, I was beginning to wonder... comparing Lagos to Jos...

Yes, a third-world city with a limited municipal budget will have some growing pains... but the basic situation... Lagos attracts people because they want to go there... and they should know what they're doing.

Dallas is definitely having enormous Hispanic immigration, just as San Antonio is. Currently, a telenovela is filming here, set in the barrio of Oak Cliff... El Barrio De Silencio.

A compact, walkable downtown? Dallas has that as well, as it also has compact, walkable neighborhoods outside of the immediate downtown area. Check out Uptown Dallas... check out East Dallas...

Dallas has pretty much eclipsed whatever San Antonio has... which is not to say that SA is valueless... it is an interesting place.

But Dallas is the &quot;big city&quot;.

Reading this string somehow calls to mind old Willy the S - &quot;methinks the poster doth protest too much&quot;

Very interesting statistics, TxTravelPro. I'm sure that xbt2316 will tell us all the criminals drive in from San Antonio because Dallas people really wouldn't do that. They are all too busy shopping at REI or Urban Outfitters outlet, or the Hermes outlet or Lalique glass or standing there watching the Ikea store being built.

Crimes per 100,000 population Natl. average Dallas, TX San Antonio, TX
Population
1,119,580 1,193,440
Violent crimes
murder, rape, robbery &amp; assault
DAL 1,432.9 SAT 662.6
Property crimes
burglary, larceny &amp; auto theft
DAL 7,950.2 SAT 6,571.3
Murder
DAL 20.6 SAT 7.1
Forcible rape
DAL 56.5 SAT 38.2
Robbery
DAL 629.3 SAT 142.4
Aggravated assault
DAL 726.3 SAT 474.9
Burglary
DAL 1,813.2 SAT 972.3
Larceny-theft
DAL 4,535.4 SAT 5,107.3
Motor vehicle theft
DAL 1,601.6 SAT 491.7


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sundowners numbers make San Antonio look pretty sorry.

The SA numbers should be a lot lower, because SA is mostly suburban neighborhoods, whereas the Dallas numbers are from the inner city, not the suburbs.

For those of you who end up going to Dallas, here is what you should see and not see.

To see:
1. JFK Museum. Part of our history, a very respectful museum.
2. FW Stockyards. IMO, you need to get to FW to experience authentic Texas
3. Have some BarBQ. Sammy's and Baker's are my favorite.
4. Have some Tex-Mex. I'm a sucker for a place called Monicas. I love the food in Dallas.
5. If you visit in the spring, be outside. Dallas has great weather around the March timeframe. It is a great place to be in the spring. See the Bluebells in bloom.

What not to do:
1. Spend any time downtown. It is strictly a commerce area, dead after 4pm or on weekends. I guess there are a couple average museums down there.
2. Go shopping. Basically, the shopping in Dallas is what you could get anywhere. You say Galleria, and I could give you a place in any major city that is a spitting image. You say the Uptown area, and again it is a mirror of an area that any decent city has.
3. Six Flags/Arlington area. Yes, it can be fun, but to make it a destination of a trip is a poor idea. I think it is a bit overrated, and the Ballpark is no different than what you find in Denver, Cleveland, or Chicago.

Overall, I'd rate Dallas as a 'C' for places to visit again. There are a good 10-15 cities that I found more attractive.

Don the asbestos...

&quot;Spend any time downtown. It is strictly a commerce area, dead after 4pm or on weekends&quot;

The West End downtown is packed with people at night and so is the Main Street corridor. Deep Ellum is pretty red-hot.

&quot;You say Galleria, and I could give you a place in any major city that is a spitting image.&quot;

Very few cities in America could afford to support a specialized venue like the Galleria. Or Dallas' Northpark Mall, or Highland Park Village.

&quot;I guess there are a couple average museums down there.&quot;

You don't know how many museums DTN Dallas has. The Nasher is called the &quot;best private collection in the world&quot;, and the Crow Asian Art museum, the DMA, all are important, not average.

&quot;the shopping in Dallas is what you could get anywhere.&quot;

No, very few cities in America have shopping comparable to Dallas.

&quot;You say the Uptown area, and again it is a mirror of an area that any decent city has.
&quot;

By that logic, ther are very few decent cities in America. And why is that a reason not to go there to eat some ice cream at Paciugo's.

I think your opinions are bizzare and unnecessarily hostile to having a good time.

TxTravelPro...LOL I'll tackle one aspect.

As a former Dallas resident and inveterate shopper, I can attest to the fact that every city does NOT have the shopping Dallas does! Pfeh to the Galleria...nice enough, but that's it--it was much better when it first opened, when there was still a Gumps and Marshall Fields to keep competition sharp. Transport me to the downtown Neimans, or the new one in Plano. Take me to Highland Park Village or some of the smaller boutiques along lower Preston. Heck, I'd even spend an afternoon at Inwood Village over any place I can shop in Tampa! I too took Dallas shopping for granted...until we moved away!

Now I make up for lost time when I get back there. LOL My DH, sitting back in Tampa during one of my trips, even got a call from VISA asking if our card had been stolen as there was an unusual spending pattern occurring in Dallas and if I did not call to confirm that it was me, they were going to cut the card off! Dallas might be lacking in a lot of departments, but shopping isn't one of them!

PS...If I were to chose a vacation spot though, Dallas or San Antonio, I'd have to go for San Antonio, just for the unique Riverwalk area, if you've never seen it before.

&quot;Dallas is definitely having enormous Hispanic immigration, just as San Antonio is. Currently, a telenovela is filming here, set in the barrio of Oak Cliff... El Barrio De Silencio&quot;

Montreal, Washington and Baltimore also have, where I've lived, have an enormous Hispanic immigration as you say and there are Montreal-based radio stations and newspapers here too. SA struck me as *different* from all of the these because it seemed everywhere I went in the city centre, servers helped people in both Spanish and English (and Spanish seemed to me to predominate). The percentage of Mexican-Americans statistically is much higher there (60% I believe I saw), reflecting the city's history and perhaps the fact that it's the closest major US city by road to the powerhouses of Monterrey and Mexico City. Houston (bigger) did not seem like that; English still seemed the major service language. A bilingual city is a draw in some ways for some people but a deterrent for others (who say, wouldn't feel comfortable in Spanish). But it is a difference that may be similar to those ethnic/linguistic differences that separate Bangalore and Calcutta.

And I think you're right that Lagos does draw people, looking for work, which one could argue is part of equation of a better city. It pulls people in from the populous Oyo State and surrounding states where there are fewer opportunities and probably not enough money and means to make it to Jos, which is a distance away. A regional difference, a nuance again...perhaps similar to Calcutta/Bangalore. (Or perhaps Dallas/SA?)

I'm not convinced bigger is better though. I view it kind of like the Metro car I ride it sometimes. There's a number of people too few that makes it feel dead (which can be scary sometimes); there's a number that's comfortable (fun to people-watch and chat with friends); then there's a number that's so crowded people get irritable, feel crushed/overwhelmed/claustrophobic and is great for pickpockets. All is based on need in the Metro and the people know what they're doing (as you said regarding Lagos or DO people always know what they're doing?), but if I had a choice, I would prefer to *visit* the Metro when it's less crowded (when I have the choice).

You say that Lagos has &quot;growing pains&quot; (I'd describe it more like &quot;total chaos and insanity&quot; but anyway) because of its 3rd world municipal budget... I think it is short-sighted to think that bigness and unbridled growth cannot cause some chaos (that may get worse) in first-world cities. I think traffic jams like that on the DC Capital Beltway are an example (by numbers there a lot of people there who must know what they're doing! why don't we go play tourist on the Capital Beltway at rush hour?)and pollution in too many of our cities.

Food for thought :) and best wishes :)

This thread got me thinking about what is truly unique about Dallas. One thing that stands out for me is the annual State Fair:
*Fresh, hot Fletcher's corny dogs and cold beer
*Awesome Art Deco buildings (That most of us don't pay attention to the rest of the year)
*The swan paddle boats on the pond
*Free food samples at the Food and Fiber Building
*Musicals at the Music Hall
*The Texas Lottery Show
*Midway madness
I could go on and on. You won't find any like The Fair anywhere else in Texas.

Jayne, I'm also a fan of The Texas Lottery Game Show at the State Fair. We always hit it at least once when we visit. Although we've never won anything of value (a couple of T-shirts, water bottle, and some non-winning scratch offs), it is a great time!

Jayne, I agree about the Fair, and Fair Park in general. We in Dallas don't realize what a great treasure it is... maybe because it's on the wrong side of town.

Another thing I like about the fair... the great shows they have in the Colliseum. I didn't go last year, but the year before, the Irish dancers and singers were stunningly good... and it was free.