Americans & vacation time - UNFAIR!
 

Hi all- <BR> <BR>I'm sure everyone here knows that Americans are at the bottom of the list as far as the amount of vacation time we recieve. There is very smart gentleman collecting signatures that he will present to Congress urging action to amend the Fair Labor Standards Act. Businesses would have to give full-time employees three weeks if they have been on the job one year; four weeks after three years. Sounds like a lot of time until you consider that it is still much less than what is standard across most of Europe. Here is the link for anyone who is interested in checking it out!http://www.escapemag.com/home/sub_3.htm <BR>Thank you <BR>

You are so right. I would alter the time structure so that it wasn't linked to time on a specific job. It should be based on how much time you have worked - period. <BR> <BR>If Al Gore were to include this as a campaign promise he would be 'in like Flint.' <BR> <BR>The other obvious area where America is at the bottom of the list is healthcare insurance. While we have all heard horror stories about socialized medicine, there must be a solution out there somewhere.

You guys must be part of the current 20 something generation that expects virtually everything to be handed to them, and on Limoges china, please! Life owes me and it'd better pay up. FAST. WHINE! (And yes, I'm shouting, after all, I'm 20 something. I can throw a tantrum) <BR> <BR>

All right 'needabreather', you've got me annoyed now. <BR>First off, it's "in like Flynn" (Errol Flynn reference, seductive charms supposedly made his life's conquests (women in particular) seem effortless). <BR> <BR>Secondly, if you don't like the US healthcare system (which I will quickly admit is very expensive) I'd like you to sign up to be the first to move to China or South Africa or nearly any other country in the world if you develop cancer, need a kidney transplant or get AIDS. The reasons the system is so expensive are 1) insurance companies make HUGE profits via premium markups (if you think doctors are well off, why is it that the average family physician who works 60+ hours per week makes ~$110,000 a year, while management people in large insurance companies make much, much more, particularly CEO's bringing in $3-8 MILLION a year!!), 2) technology is very expensive. If people want cutting edge, rapidly improving health care it comes with a high price tag. Research and development is expensive. Discoveries and improvements move along slowly, but if it weren't for the research done in the US in the past 75 years I guarantee you the world would be far behind where it is today. 3) providing everyone access to the best all the time is nearly impossible. But that's considered every American's right by most people. In the recent past at least, Canadians sometimes had to to get access to cancer treatment, heart bypasses, etc. The system went bust and now Canadians are being charged fees for this and that, and when their celebrities get seriously ill, where do they go for health care? That's right, to the USA. <BR>Sure the system is too expensive. But when a Congressman's wife gets sick, do you think he sits at his desk trying to figure out how to cut costs or does he throw care to the wind and seek out the best darned physicians he can find. How valuable is your health? Want to try to assign a value, or worse yet, set up a rationing system so there's a limit on how aggressively you can be cared for? <BR> <BR>And thirdly, Al Gore would never get my vote if he guaranteed me 10 weeks of vacation per year. <BR> <BR>I'm going to attempt to stop hyperventilating now. Carry on......

should have read "....Canadians sometimes had to WAIT to get access to cancer treatment", etc

I know the perfect solution to the too short USA vacation problem. Quit. Get out of the rat race and go where and when you want to and stay as long as you wish. I quit working in 1987. Notice I didn't say retired. And I was 34 at that time. I saved up as much money until then working 60+ hours a week for years and then I invested my $$ in the stock market and quit work. Haven't worked since and my nest egg is even bigger than it was in 1987 when I left the work force. I travel alot. Backpacking and staying in hostels and volunteering on digs, camping etc. It's been great and I recommend it. Don't get mad...get out.

We may be close to the bottom on vacation time. However I certainly do not believe that it is the government's function to force business to grant vacations. The government is already too involved with regulating business. Just because Europe or whereever does something is no excuse for us to mimic them. Our system is by far the best over all.

Stop whining about vacation time and get to work. My spouse and I are late 30s; one gets 21 days, the other 20 -- plus three-day weekends and other holidays. We enjoy a comfortable standard of living. And it's due to the fact that we work very hard at our jobs. <BR> <BR>"The harder I work, the luckier I get." <BR>

In general, our corporations resist all kinds of benefits that are considered more or less standard in other developed and even developing countries. Takes money out of the share-holders' and execs' pockets! <BR> <BR>Re: our collapsing health care system -- a recent World Health Organization report ranks the US system at 57th after all other industrialized countries and quite a few developing countries. Report at: http://filestore.who.int/~who/whr/20...nexTable01.pdf. We used to pay 8 cents for administration on the health care dollar. We now pay about 40 cents. And anyone who thinks there's no waiting in the US for treatment just hasn't been sick lately. I've experienced Canadian, British, and US health care, and ours is slick with technology but a disaster in actually taking care of people.

Sorry, US is ranked 37th not 57th, but the point stands. Canada is 30th, UK is 18th.

Lets get all the facts: <BR> <BR>Yes it's true that other countries "get" more vacation time, but the question is WHY? Answer: because unemployment is sooo much higher they have no choice. Also, we have so many more choices here. There is NO WHERE else in the world that an average citizen has the chance to own a business like here. As for health care, most socialized programs are exactlty that, here we have the right to choose. <BR> <BR>Basically, if you don't like life in the United States .... LEAVE. There are plenty of others (from every country in the world) WAITING to get in! <BR>

If you are unhappy with the amount of vacation time you get at your job, quit and get one that gives you more. <BR> <BR>That would be much more productive than whining about it.

I agree that Americans need more vacation time. Sorry to ruin your theory "whine", I'm not a 20-something. Unless you are one of the fortunate few who actually loves their job, I think vacations are a necessity. You generally come back more refreshed and productive. And as far as the government staying out of business, I believe you are mistaken if you think businesses would always do the best for their employees without organizations like OSHA etc. If not for government involvement, we would probably still be working 6 day workweeks and alongside children to boot. And as far as the relationship of unemployment and vacation time, I didn't notice companies rushing to increase vacation time during our last recession. If anything I would think companies would give better vacation packages when they are competing for workers during times of full employment. I would think more of an argument could be made for the correlation of age discrimination and vacation. After all, just hire a kid right out of college, two weeks vacation after a year is much better than the 4 weeks you're paying that guy with 20 years service. Even better, hire a temp then you have no benefits at all! <BR>It's stupid to say people should leave the country just because they have opinions on what might make it better. <BR>Obviously your opinion depends on your job field, what kind of company you work for and many other factors. I would be interested to know whether it's government, corporate, self-employed for the differing opinions here.

Right on Cal, <BR>Keep government out of my business. In our office, if you want three weeks off you can certainly get it. Just don't make pay for it. Also keep government out or Health Care. Whenever they get into anything, it cost 1000 folds more than it did before they got involved. <BR>As for Al Gore, NEVER.

Why is it that various people say leave the country, leave your job, your country love it or leave it, quite whining, etc. whenever these discussions come up? Can't have a middle ground or come up with a solution other than leave. I am a 40 something, who has worked hard all my life, college gradute, etc. Why not try to find a solution rather than tell people to leave. Although I agree, it shouldn't be the government that determines private business benefits. Because I was forced to find a new job last year - basically start over - I now have a job with 2 wks vacation again, plus having to work various weekends & holidays throughout the year. It is just the usual arguement between the factions of those that want to make work their life, & those that work to live. Both factions work hard - no matter what age they are, but one group likes to spend more time with family, others prefer more time at work. Certain individuals of each group, rather than try & listen to each other, or try to find a common solution rather not listen at all, or even agree that there is something to talk about. Just make blanket statements about people not known. In my eyes, a good balance of being to spend as much time as possible with family, vacations, etc, but still put in a good day's work to be able to afford that time off.

Lisa, you make some good points. While I do not believe government should set business benefits, there may be the need for government to get involved in these things for the good of the people, as has been historically shown. <BR>But I also believe more vacation is needed for the well being of the individuals (mental & physical)& their families,which also would make them better to face the challenges at work.

Kevin - you da man! World Health Organization statistics are meaningless because the criteria they use invariably skew the results in favor of more socialist nations, which tend to have universal health care. Availability of health care and quality of health care are separate issues. When the socio-political considerations are removed from consideration, there is absolutely no doubt who has the superior health care system - the US. I am willing (and, admittedly, able) to pay for quality health care. <BR> <BR>As far as vacation is concerned, does anyone believe that it is a coincidence that the same modern industrialized nation that has the least amount of annual vacation is also the economic leader of the world. Do a simple web search and compare average take-home (i.e., after-tax) income of Europeans versus Americans. The results may surprise you. I am fortunate that my employer has very generous vacation benefits. But, frankly, I would rather have two weeks a year and be able to afford to go to Europe during that time than have four weeks a year and have to stay at home.

Steve took the words right off my keyboard. June, please be careful when you interpret comparative statistics of any type. We are all about to be bombarded by a stream of seemingly contradictory statistics as the Presidential elections move into high gear. <BR>WHO data has nothing to do with the QUALITY of health care....more to do with access, national expenditures and cost per person, etc. <BR>Simple example: Money magazine annually ranks the "best" places to live in the US. One year in the '90's Rochester, MN came out on top. I can speak from personal experience and tell you that Rochester would make virtually no one in the US's personal list of best places to live. But when you crunch a bunch of numbers, places like Lincoln, NE and Laramie, WY can be superior if you only use objectives like crime rate and number of libraries per capita, etc. <BR>It's laughable the way people interpret those WHO health care stats...the news media toss them around frequently. Not surprising since the media have perfected the art of statistical and info manipulation over the past 20 years.

Hi Kevin & Steve, <BR> <BR>Well said gentlemen! You are both well informed and right on target! <BR> <BR>If this had been a debate, my vote would go to you both!

Sorry, but I'm not a 20 something. I am 50. I'm not going to apologize for wanting to have more vacation time. Should I have said I want less? <BR> <BR>Sorry, but I was referring to the James Coburn spy spoof movie which is titled "In Like Flint." <BR> <BR>Sorry, but I never said I was for Gore. I just indicated he would stand a better chance of being elected if he promised more vacation time. After all, that is his approach - promise everybody everything! I'm not voting for him either! <BR> <BR>Sorry, but I didn't say that any other country had a better healthcare system than we do, ours just needs to be improved. I acknowledged the horror stories of socialized medicine - I said there must be a solution out there (pick the best parts and make it work). I've lived and worked overseas, and have seen socialized medicine first-hand. It has its good points as well as its bad points. <BR> <BR>Sorry, but I am not leaving the country. You see, one of the truly great things about our country is that we can voice our opinions in forums like this one. <BR> <BR>Have a nice day!

In Canada the situation is similar. All around me I see people burning out, breaking down and getting sick. Why? Mostly because they're working too hard at too stressful jobs and not getting enough time off. Ask to be treated decently and you're accused of "whining?" I don't get it. <BR> <BR>It has been said that people (Buzz excepted) so often define themselves by their jobs in this culture. Working, working, waiting for retirement to finally do what you supposedly always wanted to do, speeding around in cars, gulping down lunch, shopping, buying, mindlessly rushing to and fro - what are we doing?

Right on April! Like you said, so often people think you ARE what you DO for a living. To me that is just absurd. And yet what is the first question one inevitably gets asked by people you haven't met before when you are at a party or social activity? "And what do you do for a living?" Gawk! Robert Fulghum tells people he is a nun when they ask him that one. And then they JUDGE a person on what they answer...thus a highly paid plumber is treated as "below" that of a poorly paid professor at some minor college. A person is far more than the job they happen to hold. Or not hold in my case. I still suggest people be free of this whole job/status/vacation business and just save up as much as you can and then get OUT and travel whenever and where ever you wish as I do.

I'm over 50. I'm a doctor, but I make less than high school principals in this town, since I'm in academic medicine and work in pediatrics. I've also just been through treatment for prostatic cancer, so I've been a patient, too. Like so many others, I'm discouraged, I'm burning out and ready to leave medicine all together. I'm here to tell you that despite scientific advances, the American people are getting MUCH worse medical care than 15 or 20 years ago, and paying much more for it -- and paying mostly people who have nothing to do with medicine. When the AMA --hardly a socialist group -- comes out in favor of single payer, that should tell you something. <BR> <BR>June's WHO stats may be subject to all kinds of interpretation, but she's right about the changes in administrative costs since private corporations took over the health care delivery system. We are getting about 60% of our money's worth, if that. In addition, it used to be the case that revenues were turned back into the system for medical research and development. Now, except for development of drugs for popular problems like allergies, it just drains out into deep pockets. I've seen kids turned away, made to suffer and -- you bet -- die because of bean-counting decisions. It's not even about who should have control here, although it is a nightmare to be talking to someone with a substandard 8th grade education who's telling me I can't do an essential procedure for a kid because it's not on page 347 in his accepted-procedures manual. Of course, if it's the CEO's kid, things are very different. What is wearing us all down is knowing America's "quality" health care is out there but deteriorating fast and available to fewer and fewer. <BR> <BR>And without continuing training and research, by the time some of you reach middle age (when the warranty starts to run out on your parts), no amount of money is going to find a cure for what ails you. <BR> <BR>Leave America? 1. How dare you! This country was founded on the principle of freedom to dissent. That's why we can all vote. 2. It's not really possible anyway. In some form, America reaches into most of the rest of the world except where the local government devotes full energy to trying to keep out Coke, Disney, Ford, etc., and otherwise parts of the rest of the world now own America, esp. pharmaceutical companies!

Hi BUZZ! You are sooo right about the way people treat us by our job. Also by the way we dress. When I go to the mall in my business suit I am attended to like a queen. This is exactly the opposite of the way I am treated in jeans or shorts! I'm afraid it all comes around to the extreme GREED and selfish attitudes we have developed over the last 2 decades.

Nobody is a slave to any job in the US. There are many options one has. It is all a matter of choice. If you want to take a lot of time off then be a temp or contract worker. I have no sympathy whatsoever for the whiners and complainers. If you don't like your situation then improve it. <BR> <BR>There is absolutely no question at all that health care in the US is the highest quality in the world. Maybe the distribution system could be improved a bit. However socialized systems such as in Canada and elsewhere are NOT the answer. I hvae many reltives that live in Canada and can cite several examples of very long waits to get needed surgery etc. One relative has a young daughter that had to wait for 5 months for a needed operation that was actually quite minor. I have an aunt that would have had to wait over a year for a hip replacement. She ended up by getting it done in the US. Another relative had to wait for 7 months for heart bypass surgery. There would have been no more that a couple of days wait, if any, in the US. There are more CAT scan machines in San Diego than in all of Canada. I am not really intending to pick on Canada so please excuse me if it seems like it. It is just that I am familiar with their system.

And it seems to be getting worse by the minute, Cal. Some doctors, here in BC anyway, are getting fed up and leaving, which leaves the remaining doctors with more patients to deal with and on and on it goes. <BR> <BR>So they may not be slaves to their jobs or at least the location of their jobs, but where does that leave us? Sorry, but I'd rather they take a stand... or whine as you call it... than jump ship.(By the way, for those who think health care in Canada is free, it's not.)

Ruth : Actually I dont quite understand the unemployment rate argument. Unemployment in the UK runs at 3.7% - Junes figures I think, whereas I believe rates over the US were on average 4% for the same period. Yet here in the UK I get 5 weeks holiday per year with 10 days public holidays. True my wage as a nurse is not as much as it would be in the US, but it is reasonable and I can afford to travel whenever and wherever I want (coming back to a large Visa bill sometimes though!).

The US State Department reports unemployment statistics for most modern industrialized nations. I believe that the UK is consistently between 9 and 10 percent, although I'm not absolutely certain about this. <BR> <BR>Anyone that feels they don't have enough vacation time should do the following excercise: 1) Take the extra number of weeks that you would like and subtract the corresponding amount of salary from your annual income. If you currently are allowed two weeks and you would like five, subtract three weeks salary. 2) Compare your adjusted annual income to the average take-home (it is important to adjust for taxes) income of the average citizen of the European Union. These figures are available on the internet, I've seen them but I can't remember where. <BR> <BR>Assuming that your salary is somewhere near the median US value, you will find that taking unpaid leave still leaves you better off financially than the average European who gets paid for their five week vacation. You might be surprised at the number of supervisors that will allow unpaid leave, particularly if the value you as an employee.

Steve, you are a little out I am afraid. Unemployment here in the UK is as I said 3.7% as of June/July 2000 based on the number of claimants.

Not to be argumentative Angela, but I don't think anyone's quibbling about unemployment rate differences of 0.3%. The earlier reference was to countries with unemployment rates of 10-20% or more, in which you see a multitude of other social/economic problems. <BR> <BR>In the grand scheme of things, you have to strike a balance among average work hours, average wage, vacation time, benefits, taxes, federal benefits (what you get back from your taxes), freedoms, safety, environmental quality, security and the like. <BR>How does one measure overall quality of life from one country to another? I don't know of a way. When I've visited France, Italy, UK, Australia most of the people I've encountered were fiercely proud of their respective countries and wouldn't trade them, it seems, for another. And that's what really counts in the end, right? How happy a country's people are with their individual lives. <BR>Travelling provides wonderful opportunities to compare and contrast. I always find little things about each country that I find more desirable than in my own. Broadens my perspective. Makes me appreciate my own culture more, as well as that of others. <BR> <BR> If more people travelled I think there'd be less prejudice, more understanding, fewer wars. So maybe in addition to Al Gore mandating more vacation, he should mandate overseas travel for everyone! (kidding, of course).

Of course those taxes in Europe do pay for five weeks' vacation, free (meaning no premiums) healthcare, good public transportation, etc. Theirs is a different way of life. <BR> <BR>Cal, it's funny you should tell people who want time off to take temp or consulting jobs after going on about the superior healthcare in the US, since temp and consulting work comes, almost all the time, sans benefits like healthcare and pension, and in the HMO era, indpendent health care plans are prohibitively expensive for most. Not all of us have stock options to cash in.

Thanks for that Kevin, but I meant that the unemployment rate in UK was 3.7% as opposed to the 9-10% that Steve had previously mentioned as being the UK rate which it perhaps was, but many years ago now. I wasn't quibbling over the 0.3% difference between UK and US, sorry if that was unclear! <BR>Do agree with you that travel broadens our perspectives and (hopefully) makes us more appreciative of other cultures and how we can learn from them.

Unemployment figures are tricky things, and shouldn't be blindly compared from country to country. While Angela is correct that the official UK unemployment rate was 3.7% for June/July, it is not calculated the same way as it is in the US (in fact, the UK government has changed the calculation 32 times between 1979 and 1997). <BR> <BR>A better comparison would be to use the official International Labour Organisation (ILO) rate of 5.5%. <BR> <BR>Both of these are very low numbers historically. <BR> <BR>For anyone interested, the comparable ILO rate for the rest of the EU is 9.1%.

Angela, <BR> <BR>I'm not sure about the UK, but inferring unemployment rates from claimant statistics is unreliable in the US. When benefits run out, people stop reporting to the unemployment office. <BR> <BR>I checked the US State Department website and they are reporting that as recently as 1998 unemployment in the UK was around 9 percent. If you now have a national umemployment rate of 4%, Blair must be doing an incredible job.

The UK unemployment rate last reported by the US State Department was actually 7.9%. I was a bit careless because I was in a hurry. The near 9% value was actually for 1995. My mistake. <BR> <BR>Brian, I agree that employment statistics are much more complex than most people realize (e.g., at what age do you start counting?, at what age do you stop counting?, do you only include people that want to work?, what about students?, etc.). But it is not totally meaningless to compare unemployment statistics as long as they are compiled by the same source using the same guidelines (e.g., US State Department).

Steve ...you said "Blair must be doing an incredible job", as I nurse I cannot totally agree with that!! but he has certainly reduced unemployment. Although, as you said claimant rates can be misleading. I also went to the US State dept web site and saw 1999 figures quoted as 4.8% - again this was based on claimants. But this figure has continued to fall this year which is a good thing.

Brian.. <BR>I know that this is really going off the topic again but just out of interest what are the official ILO unemployment rates for the US?

Admittedly, it wouldn't surprise me if the US State Department was reporting inconsistent UK unemployment figures - it is a US federal agency. <BR> <BR>Still, the discrepancy seems awfully large (a factor of two). My numbers are from the US State Department Bureau of European Affairs. The URL is http://www.state.gov/www/issues/econ...kingdom97.html. The State Department's most recent unemployment statistics for the European Union as a whole is about 10%.

Steve <BR>I found the 1999 US state dept. statistics on UK unemployment from &gt;http://www.state.gov/www/about_state...k99_02html&lt; <BR>And the July2000 figure from national press/news ect.

I agree with the poster who complains about topics like this bringing out the extremists. <BR>Holidays are a vital part of the working scene. I am much more likely to give my best after I have been revived by a well-earned break, and I am sure most others are too. <BR>America, to me, is disappointingly behind the times when it comes to vacation time. As well as your having to pay $$$ for health insurance, you are then expected to slave for 50 weeks a year. <BR>In the U K, I get 26 days including public holidays, of which there are about 7 per year. In addition to that, I work a non-standard rota pattern that allows me an average of a 4 day week with 7 days off every six weeks. Night and weekend work is involved, but I knew that when I went to work in the industry. <BR>Each year I save and travel to four or five foreign places, and that is without earning mega-bucks. If I had to live in the U S, I would not be quite as productive, I fear, and nor would I be quite so well off. <BR>Sure, your economy is booming, but ours isn't not doing so badly and inflation and unemployment is low, as are interest rates.