cmcfong: I would say fly from BA. I would NOT drive from BA to Tierra del Fuego. I have seen you asking about that in another thread.

Extreme poverty is a constant in all major cities of the world.
I have seen Homeless people in New York doing what you describe as a "deplorable spectacle", rummaging through other people's garbage to find something to eat. I have seen it in Lima, Rio, Delhi, Panama, You name it and its not something I feel compelled to see.
What you show is maybe the other face of BA, not the real BA.

Thank you, AVRooster.

lelc00

You raise an interesting distinction between the "real" Buenos Aires and "another face" of BA. There are over 40 distinct neighborhoods in the city itself and probaly an equal number of suburbs in the Provincia or Buenos Aires...Each has its own face, or distinct way of life....As well, there are different faces for people in different socio economic levels...sometimes even within the same general class there are differences...Cartoneros, Piqueteros, workers in recovered factories, kids who juggle at intersections for tips, maids, etc...are all poor and lower-working class, but their lives are very different....and at the other end of the spectrum, I have a friend who lives in Martinez who has a second house near a ski area and collects Rolex watches....He makes obscene amounts of money in the construction business.....all are the "real" BA....just different faces of the same city...

The other point I agree with, though perhaps for different reasons, is a negative reaction to watching the poor try to eek out a meager existance...followed by dinner out at a nice restaurant.....Go to a recovered factory and buy some of the goods produced by the poor or volunteer in a Comedor (soup kitchen) if you are interested in understanding poverty in BA......just my two cents worth....

actually, I took the idea of seeing the "cartonero" train as something along the lines of confronting the reality of poverty that tourist rarely see, rather than as a "curiosity" of watching poor people as some spectacle.

I've been on work trips, where I've met with workers in border towns in Mexico and farmworkers in the Dominican Republic, and these have all been incredibly meaningful, and help gain a true sense of place. Of course, it is uncomfortable....I've spent time in SE Asia, where the gov't tries to make sure travelers don't really see the poverty....etc. Of course, there's plenty of povery in the U.S., too, including a few blocks from my house in Baltimore.

I don't need to defend AVRooster, since he could do it himself, but perhaps the use of the world "spectacle" was unfortunate. I found the idea of this trip was to be a "learning experince," and "real" was meant as opposed to "tourist," but was not meant to be the very last word in understanding the city....

Thankfully rather busy at this time, but this thread is now getting REALLY interesting.

Will post later today. Hopefully, there will be still more opinions by then.

Av rooster doesn't need to defend himself in my oponion...the service he has volunteered to provide is great, providing tourists a glimpse of life that gets them off the tourist trail. His independent service and the Cicerones organization provide a valuable service...the idea of riding a train and a colectivo to the suburbs is an excellent way of experiencing life as a Porteno experiences it.....

I would also agree that it is good to find out about poverty in Argentina instead of remaining at a distance from it....but I think a better way to do it is via volunteering or visiting a recovered factory and buying goods produced by the poor and not merely observing the poor...

drdawggy,
I agree with you. It is best to buy locally when one travels, and to stay in accomodations that support the local economy, and not in hotels, etc. that support large, U.S.and European -based hotel companies, etc.

However, the first step in helping people in poverty, is understanding the situation; I don't want to get into a discussion of global economics here, but I think it's important to see that all economic models have problems, and, in general, one size does not fit all....

drdawggy: since you are the acknowledged American expert on these matters, do you think you could help lelc00 who posted a question 11 days ago and got no replies?

av, I have stayed in many hotels in BsAs...but since I have not stayed at the Sofitel I did not respond to the original question..I have eaten in Le Sud, the Sofitel restaurant, and like it very much. I also like the Retiro location, but the rates are too high for me....I agree with you about the Alvear being the best hotel in South America, but the rates are too high there as well....I limit myself to an occasional glass of wine and a stroll through the lobby of this great hotel....

I think the best bargains in Buenos Aires are in the mid-price or four star range....many five star hotels cost as much in BA as in other parts of the world.....

This is what I love about the Internet. Everyone can have his say and we can agree or disagree or, even better, agree to disagree.

First, I’ll somewhat reluctantly concede two points:

1) Maybe, just maybe, “the other face of BA” would have been a better name for my tour, but I do not feel its name is THAT important.

2) Maybe, just maybe, as elr (my first “volunteer”) says: “perhaps the use of the word "spectacle" was unfortunate.”

Next I’ll reply, perhaps somewhat aggressively:

lelc00 has chosen to tour Buenos Aires by staying at the Puerto Madero Hilton, dining at “Cabaña las Lilas” and “El Mirasol”, going to “Señor Tango”, keeping away from “achuras” (some of which I like, but this is wholly a matter of taste) and labeling our famous Calle Florida as a “more insecure shopping zone”.

Well, that’s great and it’s his privilege. He’s certainly sticking strictly to the places which we locals call “for export” and maybe even hearing more English than Spanish spoken while he is staying in Argentina.

That is exactly the opposite of what my tour offers, because, as I promised in my first posting, “my guests will NOT find a single tourist in the places where I will take them.”

drdawggy “gets it” when he says: “the idea of riding a train and a colectivo to the suburbs is an excellent way of experiencing life as a Porteño experiences it”. But, then he adds: “volunteer in a Comedor (soup kitchen) if you are interested in understanding poverty in BA”. I wonder how many tourists would volunteer for this. If any, I know of a place where they could apply.

elr really “gets it” when she says: “the first step in helping people in poverty, is understanding the situation”. That is why I said in my first posting: “it will help you understand the Argentine crisis better than any book. Of course, I'll offer my own theories about why this happened and gaze into my crystal ball for the future.”

lelc00: comparing our “cartoneros” to what you have seen in New York, Lima, Rio, Delhi and Panama is not valid. Some of the people you saw in those places, most likely the ones in India, maybe were actually starving and that is why they were and I quote YOU: “rummaging through other people's garbage to find something to eat.”

What I said was that the cartoneros “have to make a living rummaging through other people's garbage”, which is NOT the same thing.

In fact, the “cartoneros” roam Buenos Aires picking up mainly old newspapers and cardboard, which they sell to be able to survive.

But the important point here is that this "occupation" did not exist until a few years ago and is clearly a by-product of the late 2001 crisis.

One question: besides yours truly and maybe drdawggy, have any of the people on this forum actually SEEN the "cartonero train"???

Drdawggy have a very interesting point of view.
I dont think I am being insensitive with other people problems, I see enough extreme poverty where I come from, and in a way that is not worth to mention, I get involved trying to fulfill those people immediate basic needs more than I am expected to do. I would never make a profit with their misery.

When I travel abroad for pleasure, I have a better way to spend my hard earned Dollars, I deserve it.
I really like the face of Buenos Aires I know, sorry to disagree.

By the way, I like Achuras; riñones, criadillas, chinchulines, morcillas... all are very tasty but the criadillas, wich I didnt dare to try.

I got robbed by to guys in calle La Florida, they took my camera and a US$100 bill, but that was my personal experience. I would not challenge my luck going to more insecure places.

lelc00:

You are not being consistent.

On 08/03/2004 you advised this forum to: "Keep away from the Achuras plate, wich includes testicles and other organs."

Now you say: "By the way, I like Achuras; riñones, criadillas, chinchulines, morcillas... all are very tasty but the criadillas, wich I didnt dare to try."

Did you change your mind?

Last year after my first visit to BA, I was shocked with the idea of eating organs,
But yes,I changed my mind after my second visit to your wonderful city due to a recommendation from Cintia from wowargentina.
I repeat Achuras are tasty, but I wouldnt dare to eat criadillas wich are bull testicles.

Great, then maybe, just maybe, you will change your mind and take my tour.

avrooster writes: "This is what I love about the Internet. Everyone can have his say and we can agree or disagree or, even better, agree to disagree."
____________________
AV, spoken like a true Porteno where to live is to have antimated agreements to disagree over virtually everything...But better by far than the internet is to have these types of discussions in a cafe over a cortado or mate cocido.....

If you are available during the day sometime soon, we can carry on our conversation. I'll buy your coffee, as long as its not in the Alvear (sonrisa).....

Hi, Doc Dawggy!

I work out of my home in Acassuso and normally go into town only on Saturdays, to deliver my work.

You can reach me at [email protected]

So far, no one, not even you, has replied to my question "have any of the people on this forum actually SEEN the "cartonero train"???"

I will email you.

No, I have not seen the cartanero train...but I have certainly seen cartaneros at work in a number of zonas, from Retiro to Belgrano. I have also worked in a Comedor within view of 9 de Julio, visited a recovered woodworking factory on Cordoba (near Bulnes, I think), watched Piqueteros blocking traffic and stating their case for employment, and ridden many a Colectivo, including bus 17 from Libertad/Alvear to Wilde, which certainly gives a different perspective on life in Buenos Aires....

Today I am off to Ciencias Sociales to hear a lecture on the impact of Neo-liberalsim on the economy of Argentina. I don't think it will be from a pro-American perspective.