Yet Another AirBnB Question
 

I thought I heard on the radio (here in the US) that the Parisian official had come to some sort of agreement with AirBnB in the last few days.

We don't always get the most accurate news here.

Can any of you Fodorites on the ground shed any light on this? Planning to go to Paris in May.

Thanks.
ssander

What are you referring to?

I just caught the tail end of a radio piece here in the US...sounded like AirBnB and Paris authorities had come to some kind of agreement that would allow short-term rentals.

I'm probably mistaken, but I thought it might be possible.

ssander

There has been some PR by a group of owners of multiple sublet apts who are affected who claim that they will be working on this problem. I haven;t seen anything from the government headed in the same direction.

This is a ploy that the Air BnB uses frequently - saying they are "in negotiations" with the local government but, at least in NYC, it meant they were being called to account by the city government, which has named a specific committee now to figure out the most effective way to force them and the most recalcitrant landlords out of business.

I hadn't heard that . . . its super early AM in Paris right now so maybe when our Parisian continent gets up in a few hours they will know if there have been any new developments . . .

Nothing new on the horizon. No new changes, and it's probable that nothing will change for a long, long time.

There will be years of discussion about how to best manage the problem of short-term rentals in Paris - it's more difficult here, because every word must be examined, debated, then re-checked, before it makes it into the lawbooks. Things move much more slowly here than we would like - makes an escargot look like a Ferrari...

AirBnB is a master at taking advantage of free advertising, managing to get its name into any discussion about - well, anything having to do with vacation rentals, especially in Paris, which seems to be their No. 1 client base. There are many individuals and rental agencies which belong to a couple of lobbying groups, such as FNAIM, Paris Tourist Commission and others, which try to keep their members optimistic, but that's all there is to it. If you owned property in Paris, and depended on rentals to keep it, you would be hanging on their every word.

If you're interested, you should look through some recent posts about AirBnB and apartment rentals in general on Fodor's. I would put more faith in interpretations from locals than from people who own rentals or just like to stay in them. The residents are used to de-coding French legalese, whereas others are prone to use Americanized sound bites from US based blogs or news sources, which are not always accurate.

Briefly recently the French rail co. SNCF had a partnership with Airb&b, but there was a lot of outrage about it, and I believe it has been killed.

There were some posts on TA about this. Someone posted an article about a study I believe where some french organiztion looked at the issue and said there was a need to have short term rentals. I believe recommondations were to come out in the spring. I looked on TA just now and it seems the post has been deleted. Probably because it integrated into the usual putdowns of posters & arguments about the topic. But in the meantime, anyone know what this was about?

Whatever Parisians know would be based on media reports which are available anywhere nowadays online, TV or print.

SNCF did kill their AirBNB partnership due to opposition (led by the head of the Bristol hotel), and made some PR duplicitous statement about how this was just hurting poor families and Parisian who needed a little extra money and retned their home when they were on vacation. Which is a big fat lie, of course, since many did it permanently all year. And in fact, occasional short-term rentals are legal, so AirBnB is either too stupid to know that are just doesn't care as they want to promote permanenty investment in buildings to rent to vacationers through them. This is AirBnB's statement <<It’s sad to see the big hotel lobbyists and their allies oppose a partnership which benefits hard-working families who want to make a little extra money to help pay their bills and save money when they travel by train.>>

As the opposition noted, SNCF depends on govt subsidies, so has no business cooperating with AirBnB. This was reported in Le Figaro on Tuesday, Le Parisien, and other outlets, I imagine.

I have read or heard nothing in French news about AirBnb being in some supposed agreement about anything. They did agree to have their users collect hotel tax but that was last summer. I don't think AirBnb is going to get some personal corporate exemption from the laws versus any other such company, the law regulates Parisians. They aren't going to say oh, it's okay if you are renting through AirBnB to buy up an apt building and rent them out all year.

"Whatever Parisians know would be based on media reports which are available anywhere nowadays online, TV or print." Exactly, unless they are directly invoved with whatever is internally being discussed.

As of January 1st, Airbnb must report all revenue collected to the French government for taxation purposes. This will probably cause major changes in which owners will continue to want to rent their apartments, because they did not pay income tax on this revenue before.

The reason that local residents know more about the issues is because a great many of us are directly involved in community organizations which hold monthly meetings with the Mayor, her representatives, notaires, special task forces and the police, who are devoted to trying to solve issues regarding residents, tourists and quality of life issues. We are the "boots on the ground", we are elected to represent our buildings and communities. Most of us are working hard to find some sort of solution which will allow short term rentals, which are indeed necessary, though not to the present degree at which they exist.

There has always been an agreement that there is a need for short-term rentals, though it is extremely difficult to find solutions to the many problems associated with landlord-tenant responsibilities and rights and financial responsibilities. There are no simple solutions, and no changes will be made in the near future. The vacation rental business simply grew faster than the city realized - because revenue and taxes were not reported. There was no official census taken of the number of units until two years ago, and the results were astounding. Since the Mayor's investigation last year, it has proven difficult to locate the foreign investors who own a large number of vacation rentals.

The TA post was written by an expat property owner, who neglects to mention her financial interest in this matter, and because it contained many suppositions and inaccuracies, based on reports by the lobbying groups I mentioned previously. it was removed. Don't blame us residents - we've all been banned from TA, so we're not responsible.

Hi all...

I decided to go back to our "regular" hotel.

I do, to a large extent, sympathize with those who cite the shortage of affordable housing. It is a problem in the US as well.

ssander

Good going ssander.

Rant that my comment was deleted. Must have been because I mentioned a certain name, a name that should have been taken down and was taken down.

I can't remember another time that that has happened. Oh well, no problem.

Thanks for the explanation fuzzbucket.

But fuzzbucket. What Kerouac suggested sounds positive.

We all know Airbnb is collecting the city tax and now have to report to the government the revenue collected for taxation purposes starting January 1st.

That sounds like a huge positive going in the right direction for all concerned.

"Don't blame us residents - we've all been banned from TA, so we're not responsible."

Interesting. I don't use the TA forums, but wonder why. (And thanks for the informative post.)

Looking at accommodations for a family of 5 in June. Because we have 3 teenage children, we were looking at AirBNB's. Haven't booked anything yet, but wonder if there will be a problem if we do? I admit I haven't read much about this issue, but now am a bit concerned. Maybe we should go to 2 hotel rooms?

Yes, agree with thursdayd - interesting locals have been banned.

I find facts helpful. I don't find insinuations and innuendos at other posters helpful and that seems to happen on this topic between locals and tourists on the boards far to often.

iris - this is a positive step in the right direction for AirBnB, which has finally agreed to start following a minor tax regulation, rather than face heavy fines for continued tax-evasion, as it has in other cities.

However, this will backfire for AirBnB's clients, most of whom have not been reporting any income at all. (By the way, this also goes for any individual, manager or agency who agrees to accept cash payments, whether partial or in full).

In Paris, anyone who generates any kind of income is required to declare it. There is a certain limit below which taxes are not due, but everyone must declare all income, no matter what the source. Since AirBnB will now have to report a "paper trail" to the tax authorities, many clients will either stop using AirBnB or will have to gamble that the government will somehow not discover that they are renting illegally.
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mominthepark - most AirBnB apts in Paris are not large, most won't have 5 real beds, and most will only have one full bath. If you're depending on using a washer/dryer, remember that they are not what you're used to, and you'd do better to use an inexpensive, efficient coin laundry nearby. If you arrive earlier than the check in time, you will have to haul your family and all your stuff around town until you can access the apartment. This won't be fun in June, when you'll be hot and tired.

Here are some alternatives -
If you are sure that you will be making almost all of your meals at home (and have done the math to prove that you will actually save money), look for Adagio or Citadines apart'hotels, which have kitchenettes in the rooms and cater to families. Some also have laundry facilities. You can ask for adjoining rooms, which would give you the benefit of two full bathrooms and more space. If that's beyond your budget, there are some rooms that do sleep 5.

If you don't want to cook and clean, you can find lots of little hotels all over Paris - many are 100EU per double room, sometimes less, especially if you find internet specials. Large chain hotels, like Ibis and Accord, also cater to families. Again, if you can afford it, two rooms would give you much-needed extra plumbing.

I highly recommend searching this forum for "paris wat" and his hotel recommendations. He's a frequent traveller to Paris, and often comes with his family.

Tripadvisor has a long history of moderating their forums to make everything in Travel-Land always appears rosy and fun. Moreover, they are in business with the apartment rental site of FlipKey and take no responsibility for vetting landlords.

But that said, there are some people on Fodor's who just have an axe to grind against AirBnb, whether it is London or New York or some antiquated notion it is dangerous for virgins. They jump into every AirBnb thread because they have their own undisclosed self-interest to defeat the AirBnb business model. They could care less about the future of Paris and the happiness of Parisians.

I also feel people have gone overboard morally condemning travelers who want to rent an apartment in Paris -- and I am saying that as somebody who has gotten raked over the coals on Fodor's warning uninformed travelers against taking the risk of renting against a drumbeat of denial and Paris Perfect boosters.

The real issue here is primarily informing travelers about the risk to their vacation. There is of course a larger issue about caring about the integrity of Paris and people are free to discuss it, but this is getting mixed up with people's hatred of tourists generally or tourists who simply want a special experience of Paris that hotels don't offer. If people want to go to Paris and sleep in trees in the park, I don't feel much obliged to lecture them on their morals and attitudes toward natives. I just feel a responsibility to warn them they are risking unpleasant encounters with the locals that could ruin their trip because they are breaking the law.

mominthepark; I have to tell you we had a very good 3 bedroom apartment, with 2 1/2 baths.
The layout was great. [Consider a triangle with a bedroom at each point.] With a living room in between.
We arrived early and were let into the apartment to drop our bags while the apartment was still being cleaned.
Our contact person was with us then and immediately answered a few calls after she left.
Local markets in the immediate vicinity.
Entirely different from what fuzzbucket suggested, but I can only talk to our experience, not to the tens of others who rent apartments in Paris.

While we rented thru a third party, Airbnb, we ended up with specialapartments.com Ref #022
The rug was soiled and I did mentioned that in a follow up conversation, but there was not much else wrong with this apartment. Six of us in this apartment and we were not living on top of each other.

We loved the location.

I can't disagree with sandralist, but the risk is so minuscule.

Consider, people do not get put out on the street.

We have done our share of European travel, 34 trips this past summer.

On all those trips, we have had a few problems with hotel reservations. Things happen.

It seems like the law has started to go in the legal direction.

Airbnb has started collecting city taxes starting last November 1st.

It seems like companies like Airbnb have to now report the collected city taxes to the French Government.

Perhaps it's only a start, but it seems like this may force owners of short term rentals to pay the required operational fees to become legal.

Mom; This apartment we rented was lovely.

For some reason these threads seem to focus on AirBnB and its particular issues and relationships. (I realize this post specifically asked about AirBnB) If you want to look for an apt rental in Paris there are many rental companies aside from AirBnB. The same legal issues face most of them.
I agree with sandralist - people need to be aware of the current issues regarding rentals in Paris, but don't need moralizing over it.

I disagree with some of fuzzbucket's characterization of renting an apt. We have always been let into our apt at our arrival or close to it. If the apt still needs cleaning, then we can leave our luggage and return at a designated time. It has never been a problem in Paris or elsewhere in the many rentals we have done over the years. We have always managed to figure out the w/d and not had to use a laundramat. I have seen lots of apts with more than 1 bathroom esp when they are 2 or 3 bedroom units.

Exactly Iris, that's the way I see it from the start.
Basically nobody is really against renting apartments in Paris.

Simply, what happens now is
- shortage of apartments for locals
- shortage of money for Paris authorities (strange isn't it ?)

So Paris has decided to put some regulations in rentals.
Which involves declaring revenues from rentals.
Which is not nice for somebody who acquired an apartment, rents it and put 100% of the revenues in his/her pocket (I would not be happy if I were in that situation).

So what happens now :
Paris asked to get the 'residence tax' for each night spent in an apartment. AirBnb, which cannot care less, agreed.
So Paris gets 1,5 € per occupant per night per apartment rented. Ok.

Now authorities say : good, in order to do that, you have a listing, so give us the listing, so that we can check that owners declare these revenues.

Then, authorities use a screen of smoke such as : apartments must comply with safety, we have a shortage of apartments for natives, apartments are a distortion of competition towards hotels, native have to cope with lousy tourists who come back at 3 am and don't care about noise.

All of this is true of course -must say I've woken a few times in hotels by tourists, I didn't like it when you have to wake up at 7 am to work - made sure they knew I was up by 7).

But authorities are after money.
Apartments are a god way to get it. With no impact on locals (know a lot of Parisians who sleep in hotels ?).
Plus : do tourists vote in Paris elections ?

So, get the money from owners and tourists and blame them both for behaving illegally - something I do too...

pariswat; You know I like you, but had a hard time understanding all your comments.

But I am 'slow', however mostly you reflected on conjecture.

I can't help or stop gentrification as it is happening in many, many major cities, not just Paris.

If renting vacation apartments was really as unpleasant as Fussbucket would have you think, I'd never rent them either.

Perhaps when she was renting her own apartment out as a vacation rental, that's what her renters complained about, but it's not the reality.

Most vacation rentals are happy to let you drop your luggage early, in fact many will state so in the overview of the apartment.

And tho a genius I'm not, I can still figure out those washing machines. Most rentals have instructions anyway. Not terribly difficult.

Jeez, just try to keep it real here.

Iris, that Parisian apartment is beautiful!

<Jeez, just try to keep it real here> Agree, as tens of thousands of apartments are continually rented in Paris and some attempt to scare a few here on Fodor's.

HappyTrvir; It was indeed a lovely apartment.

This may be a naive question, but I am not familiar with the way AirBnB works in France, not how income is routinely reported. Does AirBnB not already report the income from their rentals to the Government?

We rent our guest room in our home, here in the States, through Airbnb, and they dutifully report that income to Uncle Sam at the end of the year so we can pay our taxes on that income like the good little citizens we are. We do not object because even after taxes the income makes a significant addition to our travel budget.

Is there not already a similar body of regulations in France that requires employers and businesses to report such earnings?

nukesafe; Believe me, you opened up a can of 'worms'.

However, it will surely be interesting!!

My question is the same as Nukesafe's. I know nothing about how businesses in France operate, and if they're required to report to the tax authorities what they pay out to anyone renting their guest room or an apartment. But I cannot imagine that it isn't reported by Airbnb, just as it is in the US. So it isn't as if cash is passed under the table by guests on arrival. Airbnb keeps the books and deposits the income in hosts' bank account. So why all the nonsense about unreported income and avoiding taxes? Assuming the company does more or less as they do other places, the income is duly reported to the tax authorities. And how do those flapping on about unpaid taxes know that taxes aren't being paid? Or am I wrong?

AirBnB is an American-based company. US law requires American companies paying income to people to file forms with IRS. AirBnB is not required to file any forms to the French national income tax authorities.

Many government bodies around the world lack laws to regulate AirBnB and Uber. They are relatively new phenomena and have been operating in the a shadow economy. (Somebody has observed that when poor people purchase services in this way it is called the "black market," and when affluent people with money and time on their hands do it, it is called "the sharing economy.")

http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Uber-Ai...omies-20150927

It was only in September of this year that Finland adopted laws that required AirBnB landlords to declare their rental monies as taxable income. And I believe they still lack the reach to require AirBnB to file papers on Finnish rental owners. Finland made a similar judgment about Uber taxi drivers, despite the fact that no decision has been reached in Finnish government about whether Uber is even legal in Finland.

You stated my question more clearly than I, MmePerdu. Money cannot be "passed under the table" when dealing through Airbnb. The money goes from the renter to Airbnb, who holds it until 24 hours after check in. It is then transferred to the host's account. Airbnb has a record of such payments, and only needs push a button to send that earnings information to any governmental body that needs it.

That does not address the, relatively minor, amount of money various municipal governments may require as payment for local occupancy taxes, but the agreement between Airbnb and Paris/San Francisco seems to form a model for clearing the air on that front. I talked to the Mayor of our rather small town and she said that the miniscule amount of revenue that would come from charging such a tax would not justify the cost of collecting it.

Btw, welcome to understanding the world of online commerce, where an online company in a faraway place can out-compete your local tax-paying businesses while never paying a dime in taxes to your locality. Too bad for you residents, your schools, your infrastructure -- but somebody's getting rich and others are enjoying a cheaper __________ (fill in blank with whatever you purchase online now instead of from a traditional taxpaying vendor: shoes, books, tourist accommodations for your holiday ....)

oh, and taxi rides too...

(I guess nukesafe missed my post. We were talking about France and its lack of authority over an American-based company.)

>>>Airbnb has a record of such payments, and only needs push a button to send that earnings information to any governmental body that needs it.<<<

Whether or not foreign governments can compel American companies to turn over this type of information is a matter of legislation and often international trade agreements -- which are written by lobbyists hired by wealthy tax-dodging corporations who buy politicians to protect their interests, not the interests of the people of Paris.

Yes, Sandralist, our posts must have crossed online. My question, I guess, was in line with your comments, i.e., does France currently have the authority to require Airbnb to submit those income records? If they have the clout to require that, and/or Airbnb submits those records voluntarily --- tax problem mostly solved, I would think.

This was a problem in the States, when I could joyfully order things online from out of state tax free. Mostly solved now, and Amazon now adds State taxes to my bill. Sigh ---

Anyway, here is a fun (?) article about billionaire Brian Chesky, the whiz who started AirBnb, and why not every city defines "sharing" the way AirBnB does

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven...b_8318702.html

just repeating my previous answer in response to nukesafe's question:

"Whether or not foreign governments can compel American companies to turn over this type of information is a matter of legislation and often international trade agreements -- which are written by lobbyists hired by wealthy tax-dodging corporations who buy politicians to protect their interests, not the interests of the people of Paris."