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Will my husband be detained?
Hi sorry,
I've created this new thread re: this earlier subject. Thanks for any help. Author: ferrier50 Date: 08/13/2004, 01:01 pm Message: So we found out something really crazy today. A friend of ours about a month ago mentioned that someone he knew (a Canadian citizen, born and raised in Canada) had to get papers re: travelling to Italy or else he would be detained because of his Italian background. Here's what the consulate told us: Even if you're born outside of Italy, but you have a parent who was an Italian citizen, you could be considered an Italian citizen as well and can be detained while you're on Italian soil to serve in their military. If the Italian parent doesn't get the new citizenship before their children are born, then those children are considered Italian citizens even if they were never born, ever set foot in Italy, have nothing to do with Italy. Have any men out there with similar Italian family backgrounds visited Italy recently and have there been any attempts of detaining you? There's supposed to be paperwork that has to be filled out, but the Italian consulate tells us it takes FOUR MONTHS!!!!!! We're leaving next month. This is just so frustrating. Who knew that there's any way the Italian government can try to get you even if you were born elsewhere, a citizen of another country and never ever been there? Please help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: Grasshopper Date: 08/13/2004, 01:06 pm Message: There's nothing on your passport that indicates your parents' nationality. How would they even know? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: Huitres Date: 08/13/2004, 01:21 pm Message: What, I don't get this?! My sister and her husband live in Berlin, her 2 young children were born in Berlin, yet they are all American citizens. Just because he has an Italian heritage, he is still a Canadian citizen. Just because this person's parent did not get citizenship, by this guy being born in Canada, it made him a Canadian citizen. In my sister's case, her 2 children have dual citizenship: German and American -- they German being automatic because born in the country. His Italian nationality should have nothing to do with being conscripted into the Italian army! I don't know how different the Canadian law is, but I would think it is similar to America's. The passports don't indicate our parents' addresses, country of citizenship, etc. only ours! His says Canada and they will think he a Canadian of Italian descent. I would tell your friend that knows his friend, not to worry............ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: taggie Date: 08/13/2004, 01:31 pm Message: This has been in the news lately also with regard to men of Greek descent. Some of them going to watch the Olympics have been in danger of being conscripted into the army. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: dgruzew Date: 08/13/2004, 01:41 pm Message: There are alot of serious problems with this 1 - How the heck could they possibly know he had an itialian parent?? - they would have to stop everyone at the border with an itialian SOUNDING last name and do some sort of genelogly research - it would take FORVEVER, unless they have some sort of database with his name in it. 2 - I did not even know that Italy had a draft ?? mabye they do - I just never heard of it 3 - I really don't think it is that easy to become an italian citizen (just having an italian parent) Huitres, just FYI the US Goverment will not recongize your sisters childrens German Citizenship after they are 18 - I belive they will have to choose. The US does not recognize dual citizenship, alough germany and the EU might(so technicaly the germans might still consider them a citizen) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: elina Date: 08/13/2004, 01:52 pm Message: "they German being automatic because born in the country." I thought only Ireland and US grant a citizenship if one is born in the country. That is not usually the case in European countries (except before mentioned Ireland). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: Christina Date: 08/13/2004, 02:08 pm Message: I suspect some of these things are being distorted in the telling. First, Germany is not one to give away citizenship to a baby who just happens to be born in Germany, to my knowledge. In fact, that country really wants to regulate who gets citizenship, they are quite picky about it. I think they've eased up a bit, but the parents still have to have been legal residents in Germany for a long time. I have an acquaintance with Greek parents and relatives, and I think he is actually Greek although he's lived in the US many years. Even he was not automatically drafted when he went back to Greece to live, and he never had a problem when he just visited there periodically. He finally decided to move back permanently and said he will have to make a decision about serving in the military when he's been resident about 6 months or something. He never was conscripted just because he was visiting Greece in the summer for a few weeks or even month before. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: Huitres Date: 08/13/2004, 02:25 pm Message: To clarify re: the German citizenship question and my sister's children.....I should have stated that they have obtained dual citizenship for both children. It helped that both children were born in Berlin and my sister works as an official in the country, in addition to her being a long time (10+ years) resident in Germany. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: kismetchimera Date: 08/13/2004, 02:44 pm Message: If a child was born in Italy from an Italian father and a French mother for example ,and if the parents reside in that country, when the child is 18 years old, it used to be 21, he or she must decide if they want to be Italian or French citizens. Every male, unless is exempts for a reason or other, is drafted for at least a year. If the male is a college student, he will join the army after he graduate.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: Trish Date: 08/13/2004, 03:24 pm Message: If Italy handles this like Greece does he would not be allowed to spend more than 6 months in a calender year without risking conscription into the military. When entering Greece the immigration people seem to do something diffrent to my husbands passport than they do to mine although we both travel on Canadian ones. We both have friends who have been in Greece for more than 6 months and have been contacted by the military, they have like two weeks to report for service or get out. The amazing thing is how they found them because they weren't staying at family property, so no one really knows. Also on the back page of our Canadian passports they is a warning that says Canadian citizens with more than one nationality either through birth, descent or marrige are advised that while in the country of their nationality, they maybe suject to all laws, obligations particularly military service. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: bardo Date: 08/13/2004, 03:29 pm Message: This is true if your parents were born in Iran and you were born in the US. That's why young Iranian-American males of military-draft age don't visit Iran. I have not heard this about Italy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: ferrier50 Date: 08/13/2004, 04:00 pm Message: Thank you for all your replies. My husband is a Canadian citizen, has a Canadian passport and was born here in Canada. The Italian consulate here in Canada told him that because his father didn't get his citizenship until after he was born, then the Italian government considers my husband an Italian citizen - which means he's subject to all the laws re: citizenship and military service. We told her that was insane and she said that unfortunately that's how the Italian government sees it. She said chances are slim that he'll be detained while he's in Italy - but of course she doesn't give us any guarantee. We will be in Italy for 7 days next month. We want to be able to leave it when we choose. I know it sounds crazy. We thought it was crazy, but apparently that's how the Italian government sees it. We're getting this information from the actual consulate. If someone who's in a similar situation as my husband has travelled or travelling to Italy, could you tell me whether you encountered any problems or how you're dealing/dealt with them? Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
Ferrier-my suggestion to you would be to see an immigration lawyer-if you REALLY want peace of mind (of course, you'll have to pay-but maybe not much!) and have him/her provide experienced legal advice on the matter-after doing some legal research on your behalf.
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Balderdash - there is ZERO chance he will be detained. If you have a Canadian or US passport, they don't even look at you. They won't run any check on your ancestory. Unless you come in from Switzerland, not a member of the EU, they won't even check passports, Italy being a member of the Schengen Accord, abolishing border formalities among EU members. I can't believe anyone would give serious concern about this. Forget it.
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Thanks for your replies.
PalQ, thanks for the assurance. I guess we wouldn't be so concerned if a) our own Canadian federal website warns us about this kind of thing and b) the Italian consulate here confirms it. We're told the chances are small. So I just wanted to make sure that in reality this hasn't happened to anyone in Italy. Thanks. |
Ferrier-if the Canadian Govt. is warning about this matter on its website, then I WOULD NOT IGNORE IT, NOR TAKE THE ADVICE OF POSTERS, HOWEVER WELL-MEANING!
See an immigration lawyer-they have the knowledge, skills and experience to properly advise you on this issue! |
Yeh, I'm sure they stop every American at the border and grill them on the ancestry - get me a break, forget it - it won't happen, plus I just read Italy is probably soon ending conscription.
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Pal, dear, we're not talking about Americans at the border- we're talking about Canadians of Italian ancestry coming into Italy!
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I can't help myself. I'm possessed.
What's the thinnest book in the world? The book of Italian war heroes. What do Italian Special Forces shout as they jump ashore from the Zodiac? Retreat! There are more. |
Hi Ferrier...I just read the cdn govt site and that quote comes from the dual citizenship area. If your husband has dual citizenship (cdn and italian) he could be detained because Italy doesnt recognize dual citizenship, therefore wouldnt recognize your husband as cdn...he would be considered Italian only. Becuase he is a citizen of Italy he would be expected to abide by their rules.
If your husband is not dual citizen then there is no need to worry! There is no way for them to know if he is of Italian descent if he is not a citizen of Italy. Does that make sense? |
It is the Italian citizenship laws that are causing this. You need to find out if your husband is considered an Italian citizen. If he is, he can renounce his citizenship in Italy and there should be no problem.
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Jamikins- I know you're trying to help- but really, are you SURE that what you're saying is correct? Are you an immigrations lawyer? And would you want Ferrier to rely on what you've said, then have something very unpleasant happen to her and her husband in Italy as a result? If you wouldn't want that for Ferrier-then why act like you're the definitive word on the subject?
Ferrier-it's nice to have posters who want to help, but only a trained immigration lawyer can provide you with the solid legal advice you need. Remember, with a lawyer, you can sue them for malpractice if they give you incorrect advice! |
Here is a pdf brochure that the CDN govt publishes. There are some numbers to call, although I really think you will need to contact teh Italian embassy and ask.
http://www.voyage.gc.ca/main/pubs/PD...zenship-en.pdf |
I am not a lawyer nor do I claim to be an expert, dont be silly. in fact, I believe I told her to contact someone to determine if he is an italian citizen. I am quoting the rest right off the cdn go't website. I just researched this as I am getting my Brisith citizenship. I am only supplying her with some details of the tools I used.
Anyone that would trust a stranger posting on a website without lookingo into this with a professional would be crazy. |
You try to provide someone with more info (like links with contact numbers etc) and people jump all over you for being te "definitive word" christ, what is this world coming to.
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No, you wildly overreacted to what I said. As long as you make it clear to someone who might otherwise rely on your words that you are NOT the definitive word on the subject, then it's perfectly o.k. to give helpful advice regarding immigration/visa issues. But the caveat should be explicit!
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My husband told me that they no longer have mandatory military service in Italy.
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By the way ferrier50, how old is your husband?
I dont think nothing is going to happens to him, dont worry so much.. Millions of sons of immigrants go to Italy in vacations..If your husband has a canadian passport, nobody is going to question it.. Enjoy your vacation and have Fun.. |
Ferrier50. I am not, nor do I claim to be an expert. I am a cdn citizen that is researching my own dual citizenship with Britain and wanted to provide you with the info that helped me and the fact that this quote came from teh dual citizen part of the cdn govt site...not the regular travel part.
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Thank you to everyone who replied.
Please, I never intended this post to create some friction among posters. Spygirl and jamikins, thanks for your thoughts on this. I just wanted to find out whether anyone in this forum had actually gone through this so-called detainment. Under the Italian citizenship laws, if one of your parents is still an Italian citizen when you're born, you're considered an Italian citizen. It doesn't matter whether you were born in the U.S., Canada or elsewhere. We're trying to deal with this with the consulate here before we leave. Again, the intention of this post was to find out whether someone had actually gone through this kind of thing, not to cause arguments. This forum is such a great resource so I thought I would find out if there were other travellers facing the same kind of problem. Thanks for all the suggestions. We appreciate it. |
Ferrier-the consulate is your best source of information-but like you said, it certainly doesn't hurt to see if anyone else has gone through this situation-just be careful and don't treat the matter casually, in the hopes that everything will go okay-that's precisely when they won't. You don't fool around these days with immigration,/visa issues-believe me!
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IF the Italian tried to detain your husband, I would contact the Canadian consulat immediately. But as others have said, how in the heck would the Italians know the ancestry of your husband? Does he wear a T-shirt that says "my parents were born in Italy"? If that were the case, do you know how many American citizens visiting the homeland would be detained? I think this may be like one of those old laws on the book that make it illegal for women to wear pants downton Abilene, Texas.....
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I think it would be quite easy for the Italian officials to figure out ferrier50's husband is Italian. Most likely his name and appearance is pretty obvious. Plus, I'm sure the officials are allowed to ask details about his parents when he is entering the country. Nevertheless, I have known Canadian/Italian men in the same situation to go to Italy and back successfully, so I'm sure there is a way it can be worked out.
Ferrier50, if you are in Vancouver, you can get 1/2 hour of legal advice for $10. This may be available in other Canadian cities also. If you need help finding it in Vancouver (I think you can find it in the yellow pages), I'll look for a link. |
You can have an Italian name and look Italian and be a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, + + + generation Italian... I have a friend who has an Italian name, looks Italian, has gone to Italy MANY times and has NEVER been asked to stay back!
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Of course it's quite possible to be an nth-generation American and have Italian ancestry. I'm just pointing out it's hardly impossible that Italian officials would figure out that a Canadian man is also an Italian citizen.
Note this can also be of great benefit if the child in this situation wants an EU passport. In my case, our children, born in Canada, have citizenship from a particular EU country because their father (my husband) does. |
TROLL
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The odds that your husband will be stopped are very very slim. That being said, if his parents never renounced their citizenship before he was born he is considered a citizen of Italy as well as Canada. As long as he does not get into trouble (make sure if he is driving that he has his home license as well as an IDP)and doesn't say that his parents are citizens he should be fine.
To read about the IDP, you can see my info on http://www.chianti-assistance.com and then click on Driving in ITaly P.S: The draft is still around for another 1 or 2 years. Cristina |
This just sounds fishy. I thought that, under the circumstances, your husband would be qualified for Italian citizenship IF he wanted it, but I thought he'd have to take affirmative steps to have his Italian connection evaluated (slowly) in order to be recorded as an Italian citizen. I don't think Italy goes around tracking down the children of emigrants who moved to other countries.
Maybe it would be a different story if an Italian-born citizen had been wanted for military service, and notices for that service had gone unanswered, and that Italian born citizen, resident abroad, then showed up in Italy and got caught. But I still really doubt that Italy is so aggressive in catching residents of foreign countries who might have Italian military obligations. (It just doesn't sound like the Italian way to me.) I really have no factual knowledge about this, though. The only scrap of fact I can give you that might be a tiny bit remotely relevant is that during World War II, an American soldier (born in the US but raised in Italy) in the Signal Corps of the US Army was not stationed to Italy and part of the reason he was kept out of Italy, despite his language fluency, which might've been useful, was that his father, grandmother, and other relatives lived threre, and he might've been vulnerable to capture by the enemy and threats on his family, etc. But that was wartime, and the US was at war with Italy. I know that there were a few newspapers still in their blue plastic bags that I didn't get a chance to read recently, but the last I heard Canada isn't at war with Italy! :) |
tomboy,
I suspect the performance of the "overwhelmed" IT Navy in War II, especially against the mighty Brits, might refute at least a fraction of your opinion. bardo, I also suspect there are at least two or three more reasons that young American men of Iranian descent don't visit Iran! M |
The US gov't. doesn't recognize dual citizenships, but it doesn't "not recognize" them either. It has no control if another country wants to consider an American citizen to also be a citizen of that country. Many Americans have dual citizenship. HOWEVER, the USA does care if you renounce your US citizenship to become the citizen of another country.
Here's a nice little website on the subject. http://www.richw.org/dualcit/#Overview |
I believe in WWI Italy was demanding that its citizens in the US return for military service, and those laws might still be on the books, but I have some American relatives in the situation of your husband and they have never been detained.
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I'm sure you already have your tickets for Italy, but one way around this problem, if indeed it is a problem--and I doubt it, is to fly into another EU country and then take the train into Italy. Your passport is stamped when you fly in and out of the EU.
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Ferrier,
I have personal experience with this issue. I was born in a European country, moved to another European country where my father became a citizen and then moved to a third non european country where my father also became a citizen (dual). I was required to serve military in 3 different countries, one through birth another because of parent (your problem) and a third because of the country I resided in at age 18. Firstly, if your husbands age is quite a bit above the conscription age then it is less problematic. Yes, there are many European countries that do this - my wife also had the same problem. Best thing to do is go to the Italian Consulate, ask them for a letter indicating that you are a canadian citizen and written assurance that you will be allowed to leave. Regarding some posters that have mentioned how do they know? You would be surprised - many airlines know this info before you land in their country - remember when you fill out forms (like a US passport application) they ask for parents info, place of birth - bingo! Having said all that, I doubt you will have a problem unless your husband is under 25 |
You make an excellent point-Lex-and it underscores what I said earlier. You don't fool around with immigration/visa issues in this day and age-personal information on the passport holder is readily available to the immigration and passport control agents when you come into any EU country. Ferrier needs to seek legal assistance-and get the situation resolved before traveling.
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Thanks to everyone who replied.
Lex, thanks for telling me your experience re: this similar situation. The person we spoke to at the consulate told us that it would take months to get our forms processed. When we explained that we were travelling in less than a month, we were told that we should have taken care of this before! We said that this was something that just came to our attention. How many Italian-Canadian males out there, born in Canada, possess Canadian citizenship, would even remotely consider that they could possibly be considered to be Italian citizens and therefore end up in that country's military?! So now we're trying to get help in dealing with the consulate. Thanks again to everyone out there. If you know someone who has Italian roots (however remote) and planning to visit Italy, please let them know that this could affect them too. |
I was subject to a potential draft into the French army in 1961. I paid $46 to free myself of that obligation because I intended to study in France and did not want my studies interrupted by a military tour of duty. I subsequently received contradictory letters from the French government, the first one telling me that I was never subject to the draft and the second one that I had been stricken from the draft list. I fortunately kept all these documents, because a man owning property in France must demonstrate a satisfacotry resolution to his draft status when he tries to carry out anything official with his property, such as selling it or transferring it to a relative. If your husband has any intention of owning property in Italy, he might want to straighten out his potential draft status before going to Italy.
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