Why hide your nationality?
 

I am new to Fodor's, have a trip to Europe coming up next week and have found this site to be invaluable - there is just one thing I don't understand and wonder if anyone could expain to me -really explain to me - why I read things like,"How do I dress/act/appear/behave/, etc. so that one cannot tell that I am American? What is the matter with these people-and I can't believe it's a safety issue, I just don't buy that-as an American in Italy several years ago, I was treated with the same respect that I bestowed on the Europeans I encountered and never felt in danger - why would anyone want to pretend to be anything other than what they are? As a proud Americanm it seems ridiculous to me, maybe there is an explanation that I haven't thought of, if so, please, let me hear it.
Leslie

Because media plays on the "ugly American" theme a lot, and a lot of people buy into that, and they try to pretend they're not American.

They want to fit in, and not stand out as a tourist, and thus be targeted as a potential scam victim.

I think that's where it's coming from.

Leslie, this topic has been discussed many times; you may want to do a search.

It's a class thing. It's been going on for 200 years. Read "Innocents Abroad" by Mark Twain. Americans have always collapsed in a puddle of not-worthiness when confronted with the grandeur of Europe, even if that grandeur is mostly kept there for tourists. We suffer from what Paul Fussell calls "rubeophobia" which is not the fear of rubes but the fear of being thought a rube.

Never mind that Europe is full of rubes as well, only you'll never meet them in the cafes of the 7th Arrondissement.

Americans think of Europeans as being sophisticated beyond belief. Jean-Paul Belmondo and David Niven walking arm in arm along the Corso, that sort of thing. They're afraid that they'll say or do something that will mark them out as a hick who doesn't understand the wine list.

It's nothing to do with politics, or danger or the perception of it.

Americans are also for similar reasons susceptible to the instantaneous conversion, the desire and belief that by holding their head a certain way they can reflect this fabulousness themselves, and be mistaken for a charming European rogue themselves. They think that maybe if they are sophisticated enough themselves, they can "pass".

I think this is related to the well-known phenomenon of American visitors to the Holy Land who become unhinged and run screaming out of the Garden of Gethsemane thinking they're the reincarnation of Jesus.

I mean, really, how silly is the question "how can I not look like a tourist at the Eiffel Tower"? The only way to do that is not go to the Eiffel Tower.

fnarf, I think you summed it quite well. I'm a Canadian and I think I felt some of what you described. The locals looked so sophisicated, worldly that I felt somewhat intimidated by them. Then I knocked myself silly - I'm actually here, wherever I am. I'm expanding my horizons, and I'm grateful for being able to go where I've been, be it Amsterdam, Paris, or Dubai, or even other parts of my own country. I know some many people who for some reason or another have never been out of their own suburbs...
Perhaps if we tourists change our mindset from "trying to fit in" to "expanding our horizons" when we go somewhere else, we wouldn't have this question.

I really don't like tourists trying to "fit in". I mean, I love diversity, I think it's important to see the people as they are (the way they look, the way they dress, they kind of things they enjoy) not only when you go as a tourist but also when you live in a place that tourists visit. There's some kind of interchange I like a lot. As lmlweb says, it helps to "expand your horizons" and also to realise that maybe we have a different "fashion" but we all are most the same when facing important things in life :)

Lesliemomof6, you answer your own question: "in Italy, I was treated with the same respect that I bestowed on the Europeans I encountered."

If everyone treated everyone with respect, there would never be a problem. The issue is that in our country, you know the difference between dressing for Denny's and dressing for, say, a nice restaurant. We don't always know the signs abroad. So some of us ask, some of us offer answers.

On my trip to Paris earlier this month, I was in a casual restaurant when a fellow American came in wearing shorts and a baseball cap. Even in a casual Parisian restaurant, no one else was dressed like that. Some people no doubt snickered, but he was genuinely interested in the food, good natured about his non-existent French, and he was treated with respect.

On a bus, later the same day, six well-dressed Americans spoke in English about French history and the upcoming election, unaware that virtually every middle class Parisian speaks enough English to know that their remarks were completely inappropriate. Everyone on the bus was cringing. It isn't how you dress but whether you treat other people and their culture with respect that makes the difference.

But you will be happier and make others happier if you are aware that people dress differently in New York, London, or Paris than they do in Miami or LA and try to give some thought to not assaulting the local norms.

There are two reasons to try to disguise oneself:
1. to try be something you aren't
2. to try NOT to be something you are

However I can't remember one of these threads that said,<<,"How do I dress/act/appear/behave/, etc. so that one cannot tell that I am American?>>

Learning the habits, dress, actions, behavior of another culture is one of the joys of travel resulting in more of an appreciation of the country you are visiting, and not just the sights.
Wanting to fit in is natural - how should I dress, act, etc at an opera, baseball game, wonderful restaurant. I see nothing wrong with attempting to be a good visitor.
The ones I feel sorry for are the ones who say " I am proud to be a ______ and I'll bloody well do what I like and behave as I like and say what I like and they can like me or not cause I am a _______.
They are the ones who look like fools and embarrass me.

Another reason is that, for those of us who are into clothes, it's fun to imagine how we could dress to "pass" as a local in another country. We never achieve it, at least not on a short trip, but for some of us it's fun to try. It's part of the whole experience of stepping outside our ordinary lives.

Thank you, Kate; that's a good point that usually gets overlooked. People who are trying to "dress European" are not necessarily moral reprobates who can't accept who they really are; they could just be enjoying themselves. One pitfall of European travel for Americans is that we sometimes forget to have fun when we're doing all that educational duty in the museums.

"Another reason is that, for those of us who are into clothes, it's fun to imagine how we could dress to "pass" as a local in another country. We never achieve it, at least not on a short trip, but for some of us it's fun to try. It's part of the whole experience of stepping outside our ordinary lives"

Well put!

That's OK but then I cannot have fun looking at how different people from different countries dress...because everybody wants to have fun dressing as an european ;)

I think there's a couple of reasons, and somehow, they are polar opposites..or are they?

Insecurity - some Americans seem to think that anything European is better and they are afraid to be looked down upon.

Exagerated sense of importance - Others think that the minute the poor, scheming locals see an American they will believe that they are carrying a lot of $ and of course will want to rip off the rich American.

In my experience, neither is true!

Though I've only been traveling abroad since 2003, individuals treat people different ways and react to the way tourists, American or others, act.

Having said the above, I admit that currently I wouldn't feel comfortable traveling to the Midlle East as an American, but it's not because of the day to day individuals I would meet on my travels.

If you are in a cournty you are not from your a f***ing tourist. It doesn't matter if you wear jeans or capris or whatever people know!!!! Embrace that your a tourist and ask people to teach you abot their culture. They see right through all the fodors (I blend in), I rent a villa in the hills crap.

I am american, i love my country, we do great things and we have done horrible things, but hey I'm american, and i love it.

Kate - nicely said.

Once at a weekend picnic, I wore a cute little sundress. Everyone wanted to know why I was dressed up. Everyone else was in shorts and tanks.

Sometimes, we just want to wear something cute and a bit more stylish than is customary at home - so we ask hoping folks will say "a cute little sundress will fit in perfectly in Paris". It's not so much trying to hide that we're tourists, as it is trying to put a little more style into our appearance than usual.

Terrorists target foreigners. Americans are a number one target! Wearing an American flag emblem in a crowded street demonstration is sure to bring a swift assault. Being easily identified as an American invites all sorts of pickpockets and muggers to try an easy mark.

I love that concept, Kate.

I recently went to a meeting with a coupla dozen people I've been working with over the last few years. At breaktime, no fewer than three of them came up to me and said variations on "jeez, every time I see you you look even more French than the last time!"

Now, granted, I buy a lot of my clothes in Europe, but the whole concept of no longer "fitting in" in my own country was good for a chuckle.

GSteed: I bet the Spaniards and the British (especially Londoners) have a different opinion on typical terrorist targets.

yeah brando
That's what I'm talking about!

"Terrorists target foreigners"...hmmm..how many "foreigners" were on that London bus that was targeted?

Have you ever heard of an American who wanted to "fit in" so much that they actually wore shorts, ankle-length dark socks, and sandals? And please, don't tell me you've never seen that particular mode of dress in Europe.

I do have a different opinion of terrorist targets, yes, very different.

I'm quite proud to be an American and would never want to pretend I'm not, but I certainly don't wrap myself in the flag while traveling. I honestly think it is hard to avoid both being an American and a tourist. Certainly our accents, attire and cameras mark us out. I've lived in the UK for about 18 months and I still get called out as an American from people across the room who have never met me!

I speak a little french but as soon as I open my mouth the jig is up!!!! LOL If someone asks me if I'm an American I have no problem saying yes. My friend and I were in a shop under the Louve and one of the sales girls asked us if we were American. Turns out so was she. She was from San Francisco, married to a Frenchman, and had been living in Paris for about 10 years. I was originally from the Bay Area, and my friend still lives there, and turns out they had gone to the same middle school..different times. We had a great chat, I of course asked her all kinds of questions about her life in Paris, and the shop wasn't terribly busy so we had a great chat for about half an hour. If I said I was Canadian I would have missed having that great talk.

<<,"How do I dress/act/appear/behave/, etc. so that one cannot tell that I am American?>>

Again, I have read plenty of posts that discuss how to dress/ act/ appear/ behave apppropriately...
however it is the addition of the <<so that one cannot tell that I am American?>> that I see seldom if it all.

This interpretation of the question leads to the bashing and flag waving. The desire to do these things appropriately is common in all kinds of situations, even in our home country.

I am an American, I am proud of it and I don't think I could fool anyone. I try to learn the customs and polite interactions of other countries when I visit because that is the right thing to do.

I have been asked my nationality many times in different countries. I always reply that I am from the US and that generally leads to a very nice discussion of activites and places to go in the US. Unfortunately it is usually someone from Europe who wants to go to Las Vegas so they can see America. NO!!!!! I love Las Vegas but that is not what the typical American town is like.

Anyway, I also sort of laugh at people who want to go to tourist locations and not be seen as a tourist. Of course I am a tourist, I have on comfortable shoes (not sneakers) I have a guide boook and a camera. What else would I be? I don't care what I am wearing I will look like a tourist because that is what I am. Thank you for letting me visit your country so I can see the sites and I look forward to you coming to my country and hope everyone treats you well. Just don't think Las Vegas is America, please.

Reading threads like this one could be forgiven for thinking that there are only two types of people in any given part of the world: "locals", and American tourists. Also that Americans are the only people targeted by thieves, despite the presence of so many affluent Japanese, British, Canadian, Australian, etc., tourists.

As for terrorism, to the London example I would add the 2002 bombings in Bali, which killed 202 people, including 89 Australians and many Balinese. If anyone was specifically targeted it was Australians, not Americans, and whether the relatively few Americans in the vicinity plastered themselves with the Stars and Stripes, maple leaves or anything else would have made no difference.

A number of participants in this discussion have said that they are proud to be American.

Why? Is there something special about being American that gives one a reason for pride? Are Americans better than the rest of us?

That's an odd way to ask the question Padraig. I don't think anyone implied that we, as Americans, think we are any better than anyone else. I'm not going to take it any further because too many threads these days tend to go in a direction probably not intended by the OP. As the OP posted, why should I hide my nationality?

You don't have to, crefloors, not at all :) But I understand Padraig question, I use to hear (not only at this forum) a lot more americans saying "I'm proud to be american" than any european saying "I'm proud to be whatever". I'm not critisizing it..it's just that I'm not used to hear that round here :)

I absolutely do not think Americans or better or special or whatever term you want to use. I'm just saying that I'm not ashamed of it. I also think that there is a tendency for self-loathing Americans to pretend they are another nationality (i.e. Canadian) in a way that no other nationalities would do. Would you ever see an Englishman/woman pretend to be Irish when they travel?

"Reading threads like this one could be forgiven for thinking that there are only two types of people in any given part of the world: "locals", and American tourists. Also that Americans are the only people targeted by thieves, despite the presence of so many affluent Japanese, British, Canadian, Australian, etc., tourists."
It seems that most participants here are American so sooner or later, it becomes a topic of conversation
It would be interesting to know the number of American versus Canadians, Australians, etc. who contribute to the post.

I think that a discussion like this is exactly what the OP had in mind. It had to lead to this bashing and flag waving.
We have seen the same question posed before lead to the same result. What we haven't seen is any post that said:
<<,"How do I dress/act/appear/behave/, etc. so that one cannot tell that I am American?>>
Leslie, if I am wrong, please point us to these posts...

As I said originally, I am new to this site and have seen more than once, "leave your caps, tank tops, shorts, & white tennis shoes at home or you will immediately be singled out as the American tourist" - I could not recall in what threads I read such things, but I know I have seen it more than once and frankly, I just honestly do not understand that-I mean that is exactly what I am, as one said here, probably standing in front of the Eiffel tower, so why on earth would I hope to appear as something I am not? I am so thrilled to be a tourist in any country in the world, not just Europe or England or Asia, and back home in Central Florida, we wear flip flops (okay, they cost about $100.00) and capris(ok, not tank tops or white tennis shoes for that matter)and love to be ourselves in our well put together casual outfits, so why try to hide it? I love all our tourists in my area and they all wear exactly the same thing-a sunburn- and we are grateful they are here and having a grand time and no one cares what they are wearing, as a matter of fact very little, remember the sunburn - so I just find the concept of wanting to blend in for the 3-1/2 days I am a guest, a tourist, a real bit odd - Buon Voyage to all - Leslie

"A number of participants in this discussion have said that they are proud to be American. Why? Is there something special about being American that gives one a reason for pride? Are Americans better than the rest of us?'

Odd question. Are you not proud of your own country?

I suppose that people want to blend in to avoid being targeted by pickpockets, various scam artists, and other shady characters.

Unfortunately, that is very difficult for my wife and me to accomplish.

Sometimes waitstaff members are not always sure who we are, but they know we are not from the local area.

In my experience in Germany, Austria, France, and Switzerland, most of the waitstaffers pick up on our Engish right away, so there is no way we can disguise that.

In a few places I have been able to use my meager German to communicate, but even so, there is no way I can fool anybody.

In many instances people start speaking English to me before I open my mouth.

My wife was standing off to the side of a mountain trail in Switzerland admiring the scenery with her back to the trail itself. Another hiker came by and said in English, "Your pack is unfastened." He did not repeat his statement in another language nor could he have heard us talking because we were not saying anything. He just knew by appearance!!

In Vienna at the Volksoper, we walked in to collect our "will call" tickets. A young man was out front in the small lobby handing out the tickets to alleviate the line at the box office window. Before I could get close enough to him to say anything at all, he had reached in his folder, produced two tickets, and handed them to me and said in flawless English, "Enjoy the show, Mr. Brown."

He picked us out of the crowd just like that!

So I don't try to be something else because I would look like a phony trying to pull it off.

A Michigan friend of ours used to imitate a Southern accent. It was funny because his attempt was so ridiculous.
I don't think I ever could have coached him to say "Tennessee" properly.

And the harsh vocal edges he put on Magnolia when trying to sound like a Southerner were even greater cause for mirth.

So my conclusion is simple: I am not going to fool anybody. So why try?

>Odd question. Are you not proud of your own country?
No, being proud of a country is a rather bizzare concept, isn't it. You can be proud of things YOU achieved. It's totally strange to be proud of things, you didn't do a thing for. Those are given facts. If you feel you're somewhere where you must hide facts about your person, you shouldn't go there.

The statement "I'm proud to be ..." is somewhat equal to "I'm proud the sun has risen today". The answer some of your puzzled european listeners might have is: "In what way where you involved in the process?". However they won't take your statement seriously.

degas wrote: "Odd question. Are you not proud of your own country?"

There are different mindsets in operation here. logos999 seems to understand where I am coming from, and gave the sort of answer I might give.

I am neither proud nor ashamed of being Irish: it's not an achievement; it's a fact about my existence about which I had no choice. I like being Irish. The accident of birth and upbringing has given me many advantages in life.

While we are at it, let me share with you the view that many Europeans are put off by declarations of patriotism. It's a bit like pissing in public, only worse, because you need never be caught short by upswellings of patriotic sentiment.

Well, it may be bizarre, but it's an astonishingly widespread concept.

My Italian secretary used to take immense pride in the Alpine scenery we could see from our office window (E bella, l'Italia, no?"). My Romanian staff take huge pride in the quality of fruit and veg at the market down the road from our Bucharest office ("You don't have tomatoes like this in England, do you?"). Every Australian colleague I've ever had has basked in his or her country's sports teams' endless succession of world championships ("C'mon Aussie").

And, you know, I feel pretty good about the medieval church next door and the fact that Elizabeth 1, 450 years ago, presided over a 50-year cultural transformation in England with fewer casualties than a busy afternoon in Paris or Prague. Even though my ancestors didn't even live here.

Lack of pride in your country is a modern illness - a variant of the anomie sociologists batter on about.

What's NOT universal, though, is this extraordinary need to proclaim pride so many Americans are burdened with. The rest of us see no need to drive round our country waving flags or sporting inane bumper stickers. Or to witter on about "I love my counttry but..." when gently pointing out a national politician might be morally or intellectually defective. Indeed, in countries with a real tradition of democracy, we regard criticising the government as the supreme patriotic duty.

Conversely, I'm not going to claim I'm Irish (though I suppose, technically, I could), and I can't imagine anyone else from England contemplating pretending to be something else.

" Indeed, in countries with a real tradition of democracy, we regard criticising the government as the supreme patriotic duty."

Well-said, Flanner, and a LOT of us here in the US CONTINUE to feel that way whether the ubernationalists want to call us "unpatriotic" or not.