When in Spain think Mexico not Europe
 

Well, just returned from 3 weeks in Spain and Lisbon and have to say I didn't love either place. I liked Barcelona and loved Madrid but didn't enjoy Lisbon in the least.

We rented a car for 10 days and drove from Barcelona to Madrid which I wouldn't recommend. The landscape is not much to look at, it's like driving through Fresno, rolling brown hills and scattered farms. My suggestion is to fly or take the train between the major cities and then do a few sidetrips from there.

The Alhambra in Granada was incredible but Granada was nothing special. Ditto for the Mezquita in Cordoba. The prettiest cities we encountered were Toledo and Segovia, both could be easy sidetrips from Madrid. On the whole, I found Spain annoying in that nothing opens until 10 AM, then most everything closes at 1 PM for a few hours. I never got my food and drink cycles straight with their insane restaurant/cafe/bar rules. Whether they'll serve you food at what times and whether drinks only is OK or you can have drinks but you must order dinner but the kitchen isn't open yet or they may open at 9 PM but maybe not---it's totally frustrating. I was basically hungry everyday and often unable to find a lunch at noon or a dinner at 7. The only constant appears to be you can have coffee and pastries all day long but not before 8 am because they don't do anything before 8 am, even at a Starbucks. And if it is 8 am and they are supposed to be open but aren't yet they shrug their shoulders and tell you they'll open soon, it's actually kind of funny at first.

Hence, my message title, think Mexico. The smaller cities are pretty rundown, grafitti is rampant, the siesta is alive and well which seems so outdated in a modern country. You can't even use the siesta time to catch up on laundry or go shopping because they are all closed in the middle of the day just 3 hours after they all opened.

And for the record, I have traveled as a tourist to over 30 countries in the past 12 years. My travel philosophy is to avoid escorted tours, I plan my own itinerary, I try to stay on the road at least a month at at a time, I like meeting the locals, I am an avid foodie, I try the local cuisine and I do plenty of research. Some places, like New Zealand, Norway and France I would return to in a heartbeat; other places, like Sweden, Thailand and Hong Kong, I highly recommend to any and all. But as far as Spain and Portugal goes, once is enough for me. My advice to anyone who asks me is go once and concentrate on the major cities. Last note, I never warmed up to Seville, after all I read about it I thought I would love the place but really didn't think much of it at all. We spent one night rather than the planned 3 nights and added Toledo and Segovia overnights instead, which I liked better.

It is good to know I am not alone. Also a seasoned traveler who avoids cattle tours and travels to be part of the place I am in.

Blimey! The last people who had as bad a time as you in Iberia were Kate and Gerry McCann.

OK, you didn't like Spain. But what on earth got you driving to Madrid anyway?

And why would anyone WANT to eat lunch at 1200 or dinner at 1900? Eat at normal times (or if that's difficult, nibble a few tapas till lunch or suppertime) and it's impossible to be hungry in Spain.

I'm no mega Spain fan either. But it's nothing remotely like Mexico, and if you research it properly - which you really seem not to have - it can be almost as enjoyable as most of Italy or France.

Above all, when in Rome...

If you want to live just like you do in the backwoods of Iowa, it really is best to stay in Iowa.

Sorry -

To me Spain and Mexico are nothing alike - even the forms of Spanish spoken are different. And even the food is completely different - Spanish is much closer to French than to Mexican.

Mexico has a colonial history, remains of pre-conquest civilizations and huge masses of resort towns.

Spain is a modern western democracy which has a unique history in europe due to the Arab occupation and subsequent reconquest by Aragon and Castille, along with remains of the Romans, the Visigoths and a host of other peoples.

Andalusia is fascinating- from Seville to Granada, Cordoba, the White Towns and prehistoric cave sights.

To think that all this is like Mexico - you must have missed either one or both countries.

I've just noticed the nick of the OP :-)

<<< The Alhambra in Granada was incredible but Granada was nothing special. Ditto for the Mezquita in Cordoba. >>>

I wouldn't trust the opinions of anyone who thinks the Alhambra (bare shell of a building) is better than the Mesquita (Spanish cathedral in the middle of the weirdest mosque in Christendom)

I take it you will not be returning to either Spain or Portugal any time soon.

If you change your mind, then, as already suggested, do a little more research. There is always something new and exciting to discover and experience.

I could (sort of) understand where you are coming from -- until I got to the &quot;<i>nothing opens until 10 AM. . . most everything closes at 1 PM for a few hours. . . . . insane restaurant/cafe/bar rules. . . . .they may open at 9 PM . . . . . I was basically hungry everyday and often unable to find a lunch at noon or a dinner at 7.</i>&quot; bits.

Did you do ANY research at all? That is the way shops/meals work in Spain. What on Earth did you expect??

Parrothead-

Can you share your impressions of Lisbon as well?

Thanks

Blimey! The last people who had as bad a time as you in Iberia were Kate and Gerry McCann

I'm more reminded of Mr. and Mrs. Ramsbottom's visit to Blackpool.
&quot;They didn't think much to the ocean
The waves, they was fiddlin' and small
There was no wrecks... nobody drownded
'Fact, nothing to laugh at, at all&quot;

I totally disagree---Spain is nothing like Mexico. I am not sure of your expereriences in both but after 4 trips to Spain and 2 to Portugal we will be going back next year.

Great, Josser... Now I'll have Stanley on the brain for the rest of the day. Thanks. Go and see what the tigers can do!

Funny I never had Spain on my agenda, but since I LOVE Mexico, maybe I should have a change of heart about visiting Spain?

For folk confused by Josser's comments

http://people.bath.ac.uk/su3bugs/songs/song/alblion.htm

I found your post very interesting, Parrothead. I absolutely love Mexico and have traveled there many times over the years--mainly to colonial towns. However, I've never been drawn to Spain as I've always had the idea that it's very similar to Mexico--so why spend all that time and money to get there when Mexico is right around the corner? The three things that appeal to me about Spain are well-reprented in Mexico: The Spanish language, amazing ecclesiastical architecture and cafe-lined central plazas.

As I've only spent a few hours in Madrid (on a layover) I plan to eventually make it back someday. Then I'll find out for myself. (By the way, I witnessed more angry, near criminal behavior and felt more unsafe during my four hours in Madrid than I have in my many collective weeks in Mexico.)

&lt;&lt;&lt; I've never been drawn to Spain as I've always had the idea that it's very similar to Mexico &gt;&gt;&gt;

It's like saying you won't go to the UK because it's similar to Canada

&lt;&lt;I found Spain annoying in that nothing opens until 10 AM, then most everything closes at 1 PM for a few hours. I never got my food and drink cycles straight with their insane restaurant/cafe/bar rules&gt;&gt;


Lol - of course Spain should abandon it's traditional meal times for the duration of your visit.

At least htey opened a Starbucks for you

alan, it's more like a Mexican saying he isn't drawn to the UK since he can go to Canada. It's not that outrageous a statement since both places are big on Anglo-Saxon culture, and both places may be quite similar in his eyes. Given the huge number of places there are to visit, he might choose France and Finland over the UK, since he's been to Canada.

I did say I want to go to Spain. But I might have been there already if it weren't for Mexico's proximity. That's my point--not that Spain's not worth visiting.

parrothead:

you are entitled to your impressions of course but not to present extremely misleading info in your thread headline which everyone reads whether they open or not

And to correlate Spain to Mexico is totally absurd.

You've obviously never been to Mexico, or at least the real Mexico outside the walled compounds of seaside resorts like Cancun, etc.

For if you would have gotten outside these enclaves of foreign tourists you would have seen the reason millions of Mexicans are seeking to enter the U.S. illegally and legally

poverty is rife - paved streets and sidewalks lacking or broken in many towns

folks living in Mexico City by the millions apparently in shacks and shanty towns.

I have no problem with your opinions and impressions of Spain/Port and it's refreshing to read something than the usual &quot;Oh it was so wonderful... planning next trip already&quot; stuff but
you have given Spain a bad wrap by calling it a third-world country.

Well your post has brought out some + and - responses. And certainly you are within your rights to express your viewpoint as experienced...

I live in France, so for me the adaptation necessary for appreciating Spain is also not negligible..

But I must comment on a few of the observations from my experience to balance...

&quot;Granada was nothing special. Ditto for the Mezquita in Cordoba.&quot;

That was a shocker for me....You are talking about a preserved mosque which contains within it a cathedral of immense proportions....and the fact that the mosque was not destroyed is another rarity in history... did you not feel a singular sensation of a crossroads of culture and history standing inside this amazing space... for me it is one of the most underappreciated &quot;Wonders of the World&quot;. Remember, the reconquista was out to destroy all signs of the previous 500 years of history. And this amazing space remains.

Point #2: I would agree that I see a lot of Spain in Mexico...yes for sure. Architecture, religion, etc but I see almost Nothing of Mexico in Spain.....you see that is a different perspective of your comparison.

On the food side, I appreciate your hunger and frustration when things aren't arranged in the way you are accustomed....but Spain is different, and research would have informed you and helped in adjusting your expectations.

Point 3:

&quot;cities are pretty rundown, grafitti is rampant, the siesta is alive and well which seems so outdated in a modern country. &quot;

Do you think Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla, Valencia, Donostia (S. Sebastian) etc are really rundown. I do not see it that way. Yes there is a graffiti problem in Europe, not just Spain.

Last point: &quot;I am an avid foodie, I try the local cuisine and I do plenty of research&quot;

Have you eaten Salmorejo, jamon de Jabugo, or any of the contemporary versions of tapas in the major cities? Or the Boqueria in Barcelona? They are exquisitely contemporary with full respect to the past.

So anyway in summary, you will find some who agree with what you have noted....and you will find a lot more (hopefully) who have found a lot more than what you have highlighted in what is contemporary Spain. It is often said that Spain has moved into the vanguard of current Europe in food, mode, and quality of life. A friend of mine just went down to Rosas to interview Ferran Adria...he has turned upsidedown the world of contemporary Michelin 3 * gastronomy... if you don't know what this means, ask some knowledgeable friends or foodies.

And on Lisbon, we spent a week there in July....and we ate very beautifully for a reasonable price, loved the city, the river, the beaches, the transport, and the experience.

So in the end, I respect your opinion, but I have a totally different view. That is what it's all about I guess.

Thanks for posting and respectfully,

Rouss

Parrothead, your post will become an all-time classic on the subject of stereotypical american ignorance.

You should have read something like this:

http://gospain.about.com/od/fooddrin...ngoutspain.htm

Cimbrone, if you ever come to Spain thinking it has anything to do with Spain, you will have a HUGE culture shock. Mexicans happen to speak Spanish and there are some colonial buildings in Mexico. That's where all the similarities end. If you want to visit a country in America that resembles Spain, go to Argentina.

Spain is the second most visited country in the world -after France-, and that's for a reason. For many reasons in fact, and one is the beauty and diversity of its landscape. Yes, Parrothead, the central plains are rolling brown hills and scattered farms. That's only in the central plains, the rest of the country is rather different, but you missed it, as you missed the wonderful Spanish food. Such things happen when you are an ignorant an narrowminded person.

For a different view of Spain-Mexico comparison, look at Xan's post on this thread:

http://www.notesfromspain.com/forums...532&amp;page=2

&lt;&lt;&lt; the siesta is alive and well which seems so outdated in a modern country &gt;&gt;&gt;

Why is it outdated? Why do you think it was needed in the first place? Why do you think the reason for it has gone away?

WHY do you assume that anywhere that doesn't meet your standards must be inferior?

when are the offended mexicans going to post?

I've visited Mexico several times and Spain once. Neither reminds me of the other. Mexico is a developing country with a fascinating culture, once you get away from the beach resorts. Spain is a western democracy with a particularly intricate history which may hold important lessons for us today.

They both have over-developed coastlines.

Looking forward to the next installment:

When in Portugal think Brazil not Europe.

Well, I didn't get the impression at all that parrothead was suggesting that Spanish customs ought to meet some &quot;standards&quot; of his own. I though it was a pretty objective report, and I happen to agree with a lot of it.

The food thing has driven me nuts every time I've visited Spain. I've been there for up to three weeks at a time and have never managed to get my hunger pangs to jibe with their serving times. And the endless siesta always managed to put a crimp in my sightseeing plans. And the all-night street partying wrecked my sleep on more than one occasion.

I also agree that the scenery in much of the country is less than inspiring. And I can distinctly remember driving into some small, dumpy town south of Toledo and thinking it looked just like a small dumpy town in Mexico, so I can relate to that sort of comparison (though I don't agree that Spain and Mexico can be compared on many levels at all).

Unlike Parrothead, though, I loved Sevilla and Granada and absolutely hated Madrid.

And even though my first experience in Spain left me with a kind of lukewarm feeling, I went back a couple more times, thinking maybe I'd missed something. Nope, it's just not a good travel match for my tastes. Which is all I think parrothead was saying.

My thanks to Josser (and Alan for the link to Stanley's song). How appropriate it is for this thread.

Like Jean, I'll probably have it in my head for days now.

bill

My best friend for 30 years takes 2 cruises a year. I hate cruises and generally don't consider them anyway to spend my vacations.

In 30 years I have never misquoted her, thought she is ignorant, uninformed, or a person to be ridiculed. I have never called her any names, I don't think she should move to Iowa nor am I so pompous as to believe that my travel philosophy is right and hers is wrong. Most importantly I respect that everyone is different and know we all like different things.

So what, I don't see any reason to go back to Spain with the whole world out there. I can't be the only one of all you wonderful people who had a hard time with the food scene in Spain...that's not to say I didn't have some great Spanish food because I did. I left tons of things out, I was there for 21 days after all.

Too bad a person who expresses themself honestly and with coviction is called ignorant but forming equally strong yet negative opinions about someone you'll never meet is considered the higher ground and superior mind. Don't any of you self righteous types ever get frustrated with anything when travelling in different cultures? I find it hard to believe that those who look down on me have truly enjoyed everything about every place you've ever been--get honest. Think about it--are many of you so sure that you are so open minded? Because I don't see many of your comments that way.

&lt;&lt;&lt; Well, I didn't get the impression at all that parrothead was suggesting that Spanish customs ought to meet some &quot;standards&quot; of his own. &gt;&gt;&gt;

I was basically hungry everyday and often unable to find a lunch at noon or a dinner at 7. The only constant appears to be you can have coffee and pastries all day long but not before 8 am because they don't do anything before 8 am, even at a Starbucks

What are you getting at alanRow? Where in that statement does parrothead say Spanish culture should have changed to suit his needs? He says he was hungry all the time and you couldn't get anything to eat before 8 am. IME, that's true.

I don't get why so many of you are reading things into this post that just aren't there. I found it to be refreshingly honest.

It's simple: when in Rome...

Too bad Spain's eating times didn't match your stomach's needs, but it is really beyond belief how can someone starve in Spain. There's always somewhere to eat any time of the day, anywhere in Spain. Thousands of bars, caferias, restaurants....I mean thousands.

Have you heard about tapas or pinchos?

Too bad also the bussiness's opening hours didn't match your needs, they happen to be designed to the people actually living in Spain.

For your information, most of the shops and stores reopen after lunch at 4 or 5pm to close at 9pm or 10pm, I guess you were in bed by that time, to be awake and fresh next morning at 6am. Very smart.

Thank you StCirq. You appear to be an insightful and reasonable person. Many people are reading so much more into this than is actually there--I find it laughable actually.

But yes, Parrothead is right, in Spain it's impossible to find a lunch at noon or a dinner at 7. That's completely true.

This is a very well known fact, therefore you have 2 options:

1-adapt and eat at Spanish times
2-do as Parrothead did


what would you all do if you visit Spain?

Parrothead, don't feel bad. Your impressions of some of the more judgemental posts are right on.

I still feel bad for the poor lady who had the temerity to post a less than glowing review of southeast asia on the european board (the idea being that, as a regular traveler to Europe, Vietnam, et al weren't for her). She was verbally eviscerated for her honesty--accused of being every unattractive thing under the sun. I doubt she's posted here since. Sadly, the travel police are always lurking on Fodors.

Don't worry about it, Parrothead. Thanks for your honest impressions.

Quite a remarkable posting.
While I agree that reading about negative impressions can often be more helpful than a &quot;I loved it all&quot; few things sounded a bit odd.

I find it odd to expect every mile of a road trip to be scenic. If you dropped someone in St. Louis and told him to drive to Omaha, I'd wonder what kind of statement you'd get from afterwards. There have been tons of postings here (to my knowledge) suggesting to take the plane or train from Northern or Central Spain to the South, and pick up a rental car there to tour, e.g. Andalucia.

Starving in Spain.. well, my problem is more not to gain too much weight.
I am not used to have dinner at 10 or 11, but when I want to stick to my European eating habits, I just stuff my face with tapas and raciones which you can find anywhere, anytime.
By the way, &quot;bars&quot; are not evil night clubs but more like pubs. I hardly ever seen even the tiniest village in Spain not having one or more bars.

Well, the siesta can be a bit painful for tourists. But that is also the time to have lunch, so eat first, and shop later.
And when you travel the country by car, you can hardly miss the major shopping centers or malls at the outskirts of town. Maybe not the most authentic place to shop and dine, but they are open all day. No siesta at all, hombre ;-)

The thing which amazes me most is that the criticism comes from a very experienced traveller.
Eating hours/habits, small/sweet breakfast, siesta.. I though these were the total basics that anyone would have known...

I understand the similarities between Mexico and Spain. I often run into Aztec and Olmecs in Spain and climbed their temples. I think there is one just outside Madrid. I don't know how many times I have spoken Basque, Catalan, and Gallego with Mexicans.

While the Costa del Sol is over ripe, the northern coast is pleasant and not over built. Yes I remember when the English defeated the Mexican Armada.

Let's see the food is the same. They both serve tortilla. They may look, taste, and appear differently but at least they have the same name.

The contributions to literature and arts are identical. I always confuse Carlos Fuentes and Garcia Lorca. And Diego Riveria, Goya, and Picasso are indivisible. I must concede that Bunuel and Dali did collaborate and that Pan's Labyrinth was the vision of Mexican writer/director.

It is intellectually lazy and dishonest to compare the two and a diservice to both cultures.

There is the ocassional American who confuses the two before visiting Spain, but this is the first instance of comparing the two AFTER visiting Spain.

Whilst I quite vigourously disagree with your opinion, you're entitled to it.

Just out of interest, have you ever been to France, Crete or Scotland and, if so, what did you think of them?

For Gods sake,get a grip people! Why don't you STONE the OP to death?

Hi Parrothead:

Really what kind of reaction did you expect when you expressed yourself this way &quot;On the whole I found Spain annoying in that nothing happens until 10 AM then most everything closes at 1 PM for a few hours.&quot;

You sound clear as to your likes and dislikes so I imagine it was easy for the Spanish to see how annoyed you were with their lack of consideration.

Did you let them know you were coming?

In any case I agree that perhaps you should focus on a country that might annoy you less.

I think I understood your original post better before you tried to explain the Mexico connection in your later post. Are you saying like Mexico the small towns of Spain are filthy and filled with poverty? If so, I didn't see that at all, and we drove through a lot of tiny towns in Spain. I felt if anything it is totally different from Mexico in that regard -- not similar. Tiny towns in Spain may seem somewhat poor, but they seem neat as a pin compared to the 'slums' one might encounter in much of &quot;backcountry&quot; Mexico.

I love getting into local customs and easily adapted to an afternoon nap (something I never do at home), then loved showering, getting dressed up a bit more than usual and heading out about 7 or 8, taking a nice walk, sipping drinks, and waiting to have dinner at 10. LOVED IT. So civilized.

And I will admit that I sure liked Barcelona and Madrid a whole lot more than Lisbon. Lisbon was OK, and I'm glad I went, but I just didn't get the same exciting vibe I got from Madrid and Barcelona. I think I liked Porto more than Lisbon, in fact.

&quot;And if it is 8 am and they are supposed to be open but aren't yet they shrug their shoulders and tell you they'll open soon, it's actually kind of funny at first.&quot; Funny, but when I read that, the first thing I thought of was Italy -- not Mexico!!