what is the LA's European equivalent?
 

I've been wondering for some time.

I have a project for school where I create a travel guide of equivalents. I chose USA and Europe

So far I have chosen NYC and Paris as equivalents - to explain - both are the typical cities for the country/region, both are worldwide significant, both are very different in structure and buildings but actually the same in a way. Both cities are important in history, culture, art, fashion and business. If you think of Europe, you think of Eiffel tower. If you think of the USA, you think of the Statue of Liberty.

Both cities have influence on each other (in Paris we can find many NY styled restaurants, bars, etc., the same for NYC).

Many would say London is European equivalent for NYC but I don't agree. They look similar to each other, but the 'soul' of the cities is pretty much different.

Now I'have chosen Los Angeles from the USA and I am looking for the European equivalent.

So far I am choosing from:

Barcelona - has beaches like LA, the central ones and the farther ones such as Sitges, Garraf and Castelldefels. The climate of both cities is very similar, though LA is a bit hotter all year round.

LA is important in the entertainment industry and sports, Barcelona is important in sports (the biggest stadium is in Barcelona and it is the home city for FCB)

The downtown is very different from the rest of the city. In LA the DTLA is not a residing part of the city that much, it is dirtier but culturally still important. In Barcelona the Ciutat Vella is also dirtier and different, yet important with museums, architecture and restaurants.

Both are surrounded by mountains filled with luxury villas.

Cannes - the city lies near the sea with beaches, though it is a bit smaller and unimportant within Europe. It is a host city for many entertainment events and award shows. However it is small it's kind of interconnected with cities such as Nice (just 30km away) which makes the city urban area bigger

Italy - haven't chosen a city particularly yet, been thinking about Milan (doesn't have beaches) and Rome. Rome is near the beach, but the city culture is not very beach-like.

Do you have any ideas? or other city equivalents? Please share with me and help.

I am not on board with the whole concept, but if I had to choose I'd say Monaco. Ugh.

Because of its long history of filmmaking, Rome has some similarities to LA. Also Rome is a large city that sprawls. Rome is also very influential culturally for the rest of Italy, although it is true that most of the broadcast media is centered in Milan. Sports is very important to Milan, which is also more of a globalized city than Rome and other cities in Italy. You can eat sushi, bagels, burgers and empanadas in Milan very easily. (Not so many tacos and burritos yet.)

The city in Italy that most "feels" like a California city is Palermo. Palm trees, orange trees, the sea right there, and the easy-going pace of life is more like San Diego than NYC. It also has a lot of immigrants, and feels tied to places south of it (like LA is tied to Mexico). But Palermo is not the cultural powerhouse that Milan or Rome or LA is.

I think Barcelona has many aspects that are reminiscent of LA, including that much of the city was redesigned after the invention of the automobile to facilitate private car travel. It also has its own psychological space. It regards itself as a culture separate from the main body of Spain, in a way that Californians sometimes grow to think of themselves as their own nation. Many people liken Barcelona to San Francisco though, because of the hills, the food scene, the good tram system, etc.

I grew up in LA and I lived in London, and London often reminded me of LA mainly because it covered such a huge topography and sprawled. Just like greater LA incorporates lots of distinct places (Van Nuys, Hollywood, Burbank, Pasadena, Santa Monica etc), greater London also has many distinct locations within it that are talked about that way and regarded as distinct places, a megalopolis. When I lived in London it had not become the supercharged dynamic multicultural global finance center that it is today, making it a bit more like LA -- but the climate and the clinging to traditions makes for such a difference in mentality compared to LA, I do think Barcelona is more like LA in feeling and creativity.

Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills tries (and fails!) to be like Paris, but othewise, except for the palm trees around Nice and all the one-story houses in the Riviera that are white stucco with red tile roofs, not many things in France remind me of LA.

The writer Fred Plotkin once remarked that NYC and Venice always struck him as similar places, and I can see why, but he was saying that the Venice of the past is like what NYC is today, so not the same thing.

Athens looks a lot like LA in many places. Lots of sprawl, smog, new apartment buildings and a very outdoorsy culture even though it is not on the beach. People like to eat street food too.

By the way, I think your project is fun. America is still a Europen country at the root, and in recent years has been interested in important many elements of European urban life/design into its cities. Most "new" ideas about urban public space in America are consciously using European models.

If you go to the Netherlands you instantly see historic architecture and names of places that is the exact equivalent of the historic architecture and place names you find in NYC. But it has been a long time since Amsterdam has had the same global importance as NYC.

sorry for my typo/autocorrect: that word should be "importing" (not important)

St Cirq,

Is there anything young or student oriented you don't despise on sight and want to slap down? Any fresh approaches and ideas from young people that you find delightful? Have you been this way all your life, or did you turn into this through some bitter experience?

I would say Rome/Los Angeles & Brussels/New York.

LA has been a total downer for me and I really cannot equate with any European city.
LA is for me a succession of towns withtou a real downtown center.

As for Brussels it is much nicer than NYC of course but for me bears no resemblance. It has no skyscraper except a few close to gare du Nord (what we call the WTC actaully) but that is for most of inhabitants a strange zone.

And it so much smaller.

Sandra : you do realize that you have zero credibility to make a rebuke to anybody, don't you ?

I don't think there is a european equivalent for LA and would pick another US city.

The essence of LA is that it is NOT a city - it's just a large bunch of connected suburbs. And that is not the model for european cities at all.

Instead I would focus on finding an equivalent for Miami or Washington DC - much easier to identify a legitimate one.

And sorry - but I don't buy the NY equals Paris comparison. While I love Paris it really is not a twin of NY.

Sandra,/Zeppole/Whatever I don't know where you get your ill-conceived notions about me or anybody else regarding children, or anything else, but I actually HAVE children (do YOU?).

Your opinions are utterly worthless on this board because you insist on being such a tyrant. No one cares that you live in Italy and berate everyone who goes there for their "uninformed" viewpoints and contradict many an Italian expert like bvlenci and Traveller 1959 for their excellent information. As noted, you have "zero credibility." Have you been this derogatory, insulting person all your life, or are there circumstances that have turned you into the witch that you are?

Go up the coast a bit... to San Francisco. Its European sister is Lisboa :-)

I am somewhat stumped with this question as I view LA as a pretty unique place. What comes immediately to mind is the South of France: Cannes, Nice, Cap Ferrat, Antibes etc.

Good grief.

Los Angeles was once part of the Spanish empire and the Hapsburg empire. Do people seriously think there is no relationship between Los Angeles and Europe?

Not only that, but you don't think there are cities in Europe that have global influence in arts and media, or are bi-lingual, large immigrant populations, have a similar climate to Los Angeles or share LA's modern and post-modern attitudes?


St Cirq,

Your response is a blustering inability to come face to face with your repetitive pattern on this forum. A new young person posts and you attack their post. Right off the bat. By the first post or two in the thread, you've pounced. And if someone comes to their defense, you attack whomever defends their post, pouring on more bile. I'm not the tyrant bullying the young.

whatthehell,

Why not reveal to the OP that St Cirq is simply your personal friend outside the forum and let them decide about who's got the cred. When I don't criticize St Cirq, you often agree with me.

The OP can also look up the threads you start where you encourage others to slam around new posters for fun. Goes to your credibility as well as to who is offering more to people asking questions here.

Anyway, back to the poor OP's interesting topic:

You know, the fact that cities have the same climate and can grow the same food really does make for similar developments in their culture. Climate is not superficial to the economics of a city.

Whether a city develops along a river -- like NYC and Paris -- or develops in conjunction with a seaport -- like Barcelona and LA or SF -- can also give the deeper similarities.

I am really surprised that people who have been to Los Angeles don't notice anything about its history as a Spanish colony. (Where did you go?) Likewise, Barcelona stands out in my experience as a European city that is not only car-oriented, but also very fluid culturally, and as a place where people go to experiment with identity and changing identity and defining identity. Plus, it has a very powerful 20th art tradition, as does LA (with movies).

Hope more people will find it fun to think about cities in the world from a different angle -- what is similar about them and what is different. It's a rich vein to mine.

And another thread deteriorates into a slanging match.

My impression of LA is a sprawl of neighbourhoods and suburbs, with no real centre, and little interest in it's past, populated by the mega rich and the poor, the middle classes being driven further and further out. That is also, increasingly, my impression of London.

Monte Carlo and Monaco are globally the same.

Monaco is a 'principauté' (an area belonging to a prince) whilst Monte-Carlo is the residential part of Monaco, with the city itself more commonly called 'le rocher de Monaco'.

Monaco is also full of banks and has been known for money laundering for ages. A tort ou à raison...

So maybe the closest but ...

'When I don't criticize St Cirq, you often agree with me. '

StCirq is indeed a friend of mine. And for what it is worth, I like you too. There is no inconsistency here.

I do agree with you on some topics, because you may have interesting opinions, but you can be a witch too. I especially agree with you when it comes to migrants and such social topics where I usually find your posts particularly well balanced.

But no, you have no credibility when it comes to rebuking people, you have been too often too snarky.

Imho. and with sympathy.

Ps : I like the 'Whatthehell' quite a lot. Could be my next name :-)

As a native NY'er, I think the European city that is most like NY is London. The forms of transportation are similar, the immigrants from many countries are similar, the language, of course, the London skyline is changing, the museums are similar, both are not pretty cities but have a shared heritage. Each has the finance center of their continent.

Paris is much more beautiful city, but does not have the diversity of people and food as NYC. There are is something like 475 languages spoken in NY the borough of Queens is the most ethnically diverse area in the world. In fact linguists come to Queens to study dying foreign languages.

I do not know of any European city that even comes close to LA. It is a a car culture in a sprawling metropolis without change of season and a culture that is the unfathomable to most. There is no country or city in Europe that is dependent on a car culture even though Istanbul has urban sprawl, the comparison ends there.

I have spent much time in both in LA and Barcelona and maybe the climate and some of the topography are the same but the comparison ends there. The Catalans have their own distinct language, it is a culture that is over 2000 years old and the architecture is infused with modernisme. It is a walking city. The Catalans like to think they can speak Castilian better than any madrileño, while LA is detached from the rest of the country.

Obviously, one person's opinion.

The Spanish culture of LA is currently more of a western hemisphere Latino community. It is as much Spanish these days as it Hapsburg. And it has sprawling Asian areas plus a strong Jewish and Farsi culture. There is nothing like that in Spain.

I am sorry, fromlatobcn, that your thread has been hijacked. Such things happen on the web.

Now, your question.

First, urban researchers - at least here in Europe - widely agree that there are different types of cities in the world, the "European City" and the "North American City" among them. And that L.A. would be the most extreme example of a North American City.

On the other hand, the "European City" has even won government approval as a type of living that has to be preserved and protected against "Americanization". And many urban researchers in Europe would say that European and North American cities are not really comparable unless a comparison works out the differences.

Second, which cities to match?

From a methodological point of view, you should start by defining criteria for similarities. You (and other posters) have already begun defining some criteria, however not in a systematic way. Here are a few examples for criteria which would make sense:

- size of the city,
- urban structure (e.g. single-centered or polycentric)
- importance on national and international levels (governmental functions),
- economic structure (you mentioned tourism),
- social structure (e.g. immigrants).

If you have a table of criteria, you simply fill in European cities and check where they match L.A.

At a first glance, I would say the best match for L.A. in Europe would be the Ruhr Area in Germany, because

- size is similar (at least same dimension),
- urban structure is similar (polycentric),
- importance is somewhat similar (neither national nor state capitals),
- economic structure is rather different,
- social structure is somewhat similar (here Latino immigrants, there Turkish immigrants).

I'd say LA and London. Here's why:

Similar size. Both enormous.

Cities of cities. LA is a collection of big and not so big communities, all grouped together in a regional conurbation that extends for miles in all directions. People say "LA" knowing they're talking about more than the City of LA (most wouldn't be able to tell you when they're in LA v. Beverly Hills v. Culver City v. Pasadena.) So too with London, which started as a group of villages and is still VERY much the sum of its districts. One used to refer to "greater London" but now it encompasses basically all of the southeast of England, just as "LA" encompasses most of southern California.

Capitals of the culture. Movies, TV, design, food, music, the arts... LA shares this a little with New York, but IMO LA is increasingly the nexus of 21st century American popular culture - multicultural, avant-garde. Likewise London.

Economic dominance. Economically LA dominates the western half of the US as London does the UK. New York may have Wall Street, but LA's role in the Pacific Rim is rapidly promoting LA into the economic powerhouse of North America, just as the City of London increasingly is wrestling with Germany for the top spot in Europe.

Diversity. Hispanic, North-, South-, and Southeast-Asian, Middle Eastern, African... LA is the new "melting pot" of America. Just like London.

Oh sure, there are big differences. Palm trees v. red buses, Malibu v. Maida Vale, Dodgers v. Spurs. But IMO a lot of similarities, sunshine notwithstanding.

"When a man is tired of (your choice) he is tired of life."

1959... somebody will come and tell you how rude it is to explain to the student how to do his job
;-)

LOL.

I don't understand why so many people say that Los Angeles does not have a center. It has a quite prominent center full of skyscrapers. But I think that non-Latinos and non-bankers are in denial about its very existence.

As for the debate about which city is more "diverse" (languages, restaurants), I have to smile about that. I encourage people who come to Paris to discover the diverse areas, but most of them just want to go to the whitest, Frenchest part of the city (St. Germain-des-Prés, Ile Saint Louis, Marais...) and fear for their safety if they stray from there. I am in a minority group in my own neighbourhood since I am white and French, but I wonder how many of the diversity braggarts here have chose to be in the minority in their own city.

"fear for their safety if they stray from there."

Off topic, but an interesting insight. We recently thought St Denis was the highlight of a weekend in Paris, and I was surprised to find us the only white people walking from the RER station to the Basilica (i remember no non-whites when last there 25 years ago). And almost the only whites on a very crowded Saturday evening metro back into town.

I felt as safe as if I were in Southall or Harrow (where it's often also rare to find many white visitors). But everyone in London was horrified to hear we'd "braved" the banlieue.

People are weird, aren't they, especially when they are voicing opinions about places they have never been.

I should probably point out (again) that you will absolutely never find Paris or anywhere else in France in the "diversity championships" since ethnic statistics are forbidden by law. We have no information on racial breakdown either, because it has become totally meaningless as the various cultures and races mix more and more. Nobody would ever be called black here just because one of their parents was black (are you listening, Mr. Obama?).

Obviously, there are drawbacks to this since it has not eradicated racism, but at least it means that racists don't have a leg to stand on. But of course, racists don't care about this anyway since when I was growing up in Mississippi, being a n*gger-lover was just as bad as being a n*gger.

The closest we have to ethnic statistics is that during a census, people are asked their nationality and also the nationality of their parents. This gives information about recent arrivals but nothing else.

I also think that NYC is more like London than Paris.
Paris is a very French city - London is more cosmopolitan. The variety of food is also more similar in London and NYC. And the concentration of financial companies, as has been mentioned.

The beaches in LA do have a similar feeling to the beaches at Barceloneta. There are even some bars in Barceloneta, on the beach that have adopted a southern California vibe "Surf House Barcelona" comes to mind. And there are body builders and folks on the beach from many cultures and nationalities.

Both LA and Barcelona have hosted the olympics.

Sometimes, walking on Hollywood Blvd is about as crowded as walking on the Ramblas. And you have to watch your wallet on both.

People wear shorts and flip flops all over town in both places.

Good luck with your paper!

<i>Paris is a very French city - London is more cosmopolitan.</i>

Where have you been in Paris?

I'm thinking that if we restrict the replies exclusively to people who have lived at least six months in each city mentioned... we will get zero replies.

As far as climate is concerned LA is situated in a dessert.

I'm not aware of any european cities in a similar situation - although the closest might be some of the cities in southern Spain (although except for a language similarity I think the culture is completely different.

Yum! Which dessert? Crème brûlée, banana split or a big mountain of wobbly green jelly?

The variety of replies shows their arbitrariness. And you will get more until the end of the day in America.

Without proper criteria, you will not get a meaningful solution.

Climate would be the least important criterion for your comparison.



Good luck with your paper!

This declaration might be interesting for you:

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/...ig_charter.pdf



In this declaration, "European cities" are clearly viewed in contrast to North American cities.

OK, I have only lived in NYC and London, so know those better than Paris. The restaurant scene in NYC is certainly more like London than Paris.

kerouac


There are other ways to ascertain ethnic diversity:

The type and number of restaurants that are not French.
Which translations are sold in bookstores
Unless you have a prohibition, the languages used on the facade of shops
Etnhic food sold in groceries and supermarkets
Who lives in which neighborhood.
What goods are sold in stores.
______________________

but I wonder how many of the diversity braggarts here have chose to be in the minority in their own city.
___________________
If arrogance were a criterion, Paris would have no peer.

Just in my apartment alone, and this from either speaking to people, overhearing conversations, or names

Irish
Germans
Blacks
Puerto Ricans and other Latinos
Italians
Asians-at least Chinese and Koreans
Asian Indians
Filipinos
Israelis
Protestants
Catholics
Hindus
Jews
Sikh-there is only Sikh
Do members of the gay community count?

We did have some French, but they left and did leave a forwarding address

And the most vile minority of all-hipsters

But then again the building is only about 100 units.

Oh my goodness, I omitted Blacks and did not have asterisks to show my racial sophistication.

What Kerouac says is that we have the same diversity in Paris.

With a lot of Muslims, to the point that Foxnews say we have no-go zones rules by ISIS.

So in Paris I see
- Indians
- Pakistanis
- members from Capo Verde
- Roms
- Tunesian
- Maroccans
- Algerians
- Jews
- Blacks
from everywhere (old colonies but not only)
- Syrians now
- Chinese
- Vietnamese
- Koreans
- Europeans from all over Europe
- US (mostly tourists)
- not that many south americans imho

Who did I forget, your list was more impressive IMD !

That's a very short list, Whathello, but I live only 100m from the <i>France Terre d'Asile</i> refugee office. There is a queue of 500 people every day representing every corner of the world.

Miami and Istanbul? I've never been to Miami but Istanbul is a gateway to another world...