Saw it during the spring and friends had explained the tour in advance. That being said, going in to it we were able to enjoy the tour with the realization that the chapel would be the climax of the tour.

If one wishes to merely check off the Sistene Chapel as seen it done it and move on, then you are missing the opportunity to explore all the other master works that are offered on the tour.

I wouldn't want to see it any other way.

thit_cho - I don't think the system has changed. I also went in December 2005 and had basically the same experience as yours. The problem that the OP and others are experiencing seem to be simply the amount of people inside. The walk that took you and I 20 minutes in 12/2005 is now 2 hours in the summer because all those rooms - like the Map Room, Raphel Rooms (which one must pass through) are just packed with people.

I visited the Sistine Chapel on July 12th with Perillo Tours and on the 14th on my own and I didn't have those mentioned problems. With the tour we went early (before 9am)and we had time to enjoy everything, we also had time to climb to the cupola.

I don't see a way around this problem in the foreseeable future. The Sistine Chapel is something that many people feel is a highlight of any trip to Italy, let alone Rome. There is such a high demand, I don't know that a reservation system will help - will we then see year-long waits to get into the Museum?

I think the Vatican needs to get their act together and figure out a sensible way to ease this crowding. This new rule in 2007 of only allowing large tour groups in the morning hasn't seemed to help much. I guess it is good that they at least tried to make things better.

Extending the hours that the Museum and Chapel are open is an obvious way to at least help with the crowds in the morning, no? I am usually a single visitor, and sometimes I like to visit museums and galleries in the late afternoon. Folks like me don't even have that option at the Vatican Museum.

I can't remember the exact figure, but MILLIONS of people visit The Vatican Museum each year. There's gotta be some money somewhere to support longer hours.

The treasures of the Vatican Museum and the wonder of the Sistine Chapel take my breath away each time I visit, and I've been there three times. Twice, I took traveling companions with me. We braved lines and made our way through the crowds, and in the end, both times, I was amazed at how only mildly impressed or excited they both were when we finally got to the Chapel.

Neither had an interest in art or art history (which I do have); they just thought it was something they "should" do...as someone else said, something to check off of a list. In fact, both friends were perfectly happy whizzing their way through the Museum.

I remember when one of my friends whispered to me while we were in the Chapel, "Can we go find some pizza after this?"

I vowed that I would not be responsible for ushering another person through that wave of humanity unless they really, really wanted to see it.

It is a catch-22. Most people think they want to see the Museum and Chapel, but the crowds don't facilitate or allow for a truly thoughtful visit, and it is a shame.

The walk has always taken you through many galleries and the map room, which I distinctly remember and took pictures of on the way.

fare-dolce, a figure I found online was 4.2 million visitors annually to the Vatican Museums. If open 6 days a week, that averages abou 13,500 persons per day. Knowing that the load is heavier in summer, one can guesstimate maybe 20k per day May-Sept, though it's probably heavier Jun-Aug.

My suggestion to offer the "chapel only" admission is not meant to cast aspersions on those who aren't particularly interested in the rest of the museums, but to make the experience better and saner for everyone. If as many as 1/3 chose that route, it would relieve the pressure on the institution and on us, its guests!

It does become a dilemma for "art lovers" separate from that felt by "art tourists" - and we feel it in many museums around the world. At the Met in NYC, possibly the creators of the "blockbuster" art show with Tut way back when, special shows are so successfully promoted that while seeing them you can feel like shopping at the mall the day after Thanksgiving. Those are the shows I find it hardest to enjoy, no matter how beautiful, how rare the collected works, how complex the process of gathering the great Cezannes of the world under one roof. Anyway, the art lover will bemoan the intrusion of the busloads of art tourists, at the same time we are encouraged by the interest in art - if that's what the crowds represent.

As others have pointed out here, the lesson from OP is to learn what you're getting yourself into and be prepared. Until there is either a lull in tourism or a change in the system of opening the great collections, we all have to put up with some often-annoying and occasionally-maddening conditions.

In the meantime, I hope that people who visit the world's most famous museums while on vacation will also visit the less famous museums in their home town or state. We're lucky to have wonderful collections in some very surprising places - usually viewable without a crowd.

I also took my Mom on the after hours tour with Helen Donegan - and it was well worth every penny of the 525 euros I spent (including the paypal charge) to avoid what the first poster described. (13,500 visitors per day? wow.)

I've read this thread with surprise. I'm quessing we were in Rome 8-10 yrs ago in the month of May and our experience was wonderful. I don't remember long lines and we spent a great deal of time in the Chapel. I remember sitting along the side of the Chapel on a bench looking at the ceiling for a very long time, it was awesome. I just now realize how lucky we were and am sorry everyone can't experience that.

In my experience, there are plenty of areas in the VM that are not crazy packed all the time. My strategy has always been to alternate busy sections with sections less busy (Egyptian collection, Etruscan collection, some of the Roman rooms) when I need to catch my breath. Contrary to the signs you can double back and circle around all you want.

All major museums get busy. You just have to prepare yourself for that, allow the time, and relax as much as possible. Think about what you're seeing!

I was in the Louvre at the beg of June on a crazy busy day, and I must have had the most sourpuss face coming out of the crazy busy Grand Galerie because a guard asked me if I was having a bad day. Then I realized--I'm in the freakin Louvre--said to myself, Lighten up, Miss DejaVu, and go with the flow!

I only read the original post, not all the responses, so I'm sorry if this is a repost.

I highly recommend the tour we took for the Vatican Museums, through angeltoursrome.com. They were fabulous! They read us through the main part of the museum, and we definitely were not herded through without seeing anything! We got explanations and stories about most of the things we saw, and a long explanation and description of the sistine chapel before we went in. The chapel itself was full of people, but we waited a few moments for a seat along the wall to open, sat down, and were able to enjoy all the ceiling and wall panels without being bothered.

Don't give up on the sistine chapel! It's beautiful!

I have no idea what dejavu is talking about. In our visit to the VM we had no choice but to follow the crowds. We were pushed like herds and couldn't back up or decide on any direction other then the follow the endless stream of people. It was absolutely disgusting. I was really annoyed with the Vatican management for allowing such a disaster. I really feel that it is dangerous. It seems that the Vatican people couldn't care less. Why give up such a nice daily income? So what if the visitors suffer and don't even get a chance to see the Sistine chapel in reasonable conditions?

I am amazed that they do not yet have a timed entry procedure in place. We went on an Icon tour, and I knew what to expect, but the chapel experience was fairly stressful...it certainly didn't feel like a chapel!

The OP's post points out my problems with the Vatican Museum. (And I was there in early May a few years ago so it's not just the "heat of summer")

The "money grabbing" that is occuring here is UNREAL for a "church" No crowd control, just get every buck we can......So who cares if we ruin the experience we MADE MONEY!!!

So your options are to spend a LOT of money to tour this with your "private" guide or endure this abuse? Can someone justify this? I can't. What about college art students? Would they not benefit from seeing this great art? How many of them have 250 extra Euros?

I have decided that based on this and a few other experiences with "attractions" owned by the Catholic Church that it really is a cash grab. They don't care what the experience is like etc just "how many tourists can we cram in here for MORE CASH"

I won't ever bother with the Vatican, Mont St. Michel or others again and think LONG and hard about wasting my time visiting any place run by the church.

There are things they can do. Longer hours come to mind. Restricted entry like the Ufizzi comes to mind. Yes, some people would be "locked out" However, is the experience described above anything other then a check mark on the "list of things to see" Do you think the OP would be worse off for having missed this? (Having done it my response is NO!)

Yes, if you are on a tour then you are pushed through as a group, just like at any monument or museum. Why pay so much when you can just pay the ientry fee, a small amount for an audio tour and go at your own pace without having to be herded like cattle?

Well, eri, if you took the 'fast track' route to the chapel, then yes, that was probably your experience. My point is, spend longer, see more, and take time to catch your breath in the rooms that aren't ON the 'fast track.' I've had the Etruscan galleries, the modern art section, and many other areas practically all to myself on many occasions. In May, a busy time.

Yes, there are problems, and the Vatican could certainly use the services of a crowd control consultant. However, there is a problem with calling for "longer hours" at the Sistine Chapel. It is not a room in a museum (much as we tend to think it is), it is a chapel used every day for religious observances and the room in which popes are selected. Like it or not, we are allowed entry by permission of the Pope, and there is no issue of the public's right to see "great art." Frankly, I think it amazing the public is allowed into the Sistine Chapel at all, considering its "value" (if that can be measured) and the room's importance in the church's rituals.

During our March Rome trip three years ago, our tour guide took us through the Vatican museum. I wish I could have taken all of you with us because we had an exceptionally positive experience. Some crowds, but our tour guide did not push us through. We enjoyed the decorative rooms before the Sistine Chapel just as much as the Chapel itself. By the time we got to the chapel, it was only 1/4 full of people and we could take all the time we wanted to view the masterpieces. We then went right to the church itself and found it much more crowded there.

Even after seeing the Sistine Chapel in a quiet, unrushed atmosphere, I still think it looks like a big gymnasium with a bright blue painting above the alter and lots of naked men beautifully painted on the ceiling.

With the scavi tour being one of the cheapest tours available in Rome I can't see how you can accuse the Vatican of being out to scrape every dollar from tourists they can.

I think it has more to do with trying to accomodate the huge numbers of tourists who want to get in there every day, and still close in time to conduct their business. If all they wanted was money I think they would be charging far more than 13 euros for entry, since we all know we would pay it regardless!

Absolutely Carla, my point exactly. Don't pay hundreds of euros for a tour, pay the inexpensive entry fee and go at your own pace or at a different time to try to beat the crowds.

CarolA; in three visits to the Vatican I never felt pushed, rushed or crowded. You make it sound like the church 'run' their churches for tourists. There are lots of very beautiful churches in Rome and other places in Europe. I hope you won't waste your time with those places anymore.

Most of the Catholic Churches in Europe don't charge anything to go inside to worship or look at the arts there. Including St. Peters. I don't see how one can criticize them for money grabbing.

Having said that, I think they need to do something about the situation at the Sistine Chapel. Now, those who want to see the museum have to wait in line for a long time to get in because of all those people <b>only interested</b> in going to the Sistine Chapel. Meanwhile, those who just want to see the Sistine Chapel complain about the long walk to go through the map rooms and Raphael rooms to see it. It's pleasing no one.

Actually I think they &quot;Ruin&quot; thier churches by FAILING to control the crowds etc.

IMHO it's hard to feel the &quot;sprit&quot; of a place when the &quot;tour guides&quot; are SHOVING you through it. (Mont St. Michel was horrid the first time I tried it, the &quot;day tour&quot; guides were allowed to &quot;guide&quot; in there so they just shoved the individuals out of thier way and LOUDLY lectured. (I did let one of them have it when she turned around and YELLED at some kids to be quite. The next time she opened her mouth and started to LOUDLY scream her &quot;info&quot; at her group I turned to her and told her to &quot;BE QUIET&quot; She looked like she wanted to slug me...) I did return about 5 pm and the place was amazing, but of course the &quot;tour guides&quot; had herded thier charges back onto the bus.....

The Vatican Muesum had &quot;tour guides&quot; standing all over the place with &quot;portable&quot; photos of the chapel so you couldn't see the art because they were &quot;prelecturing&quot; thier groups about what they were going to see. At some points in the museum (Not going to the chapel) I was CRUSHED up against people in front of me by being SHOVED from the rear by HORDES (most of whom appeared to be led by agressive tour guides)

Lots of museums have strictly limited tour guiding. IMHO that would be a good idea here too. The guides drop you off at the door and tell you when they will pick you up. If they need to lecture you about the art, they can do it on the bus not in the museum!


I still think that &quot;limiting&quot; access is the only way to go, but I don't think they will do it.

My husband and I had the same experience at the Sistine Chapel at Christmas 2004 and will never go back. Those horrible &quot;shushers&quot; (same thing at Sainte Chappelle) telling everyone to be quiet.

There are lots of other beautiful and interesting churches in Rome so we don't feel we are missing anything. Santa Maria Maggiore for one, I actually preferred to Saint Peter's and the Vatican.

What are &quot;shushers&quot;?
I agree with kgh8m about the people snapping away with their flashes, openly ignoring the &quot;please don't take photos&quot; rule. It was the one thing (besides the loud talking) that detracted from the otherwise positive experience.
I actually heard one US guy, when asked not to take pictures bellow out &quot;This is a F___ ing public place and I'll F__ ing do whatever I F___ ing want with my F__ ing camera!&quot; Charming.

bellastar you can't tell what a &quot;shusher&quot; is by the name? It's people that say &quot;SSSSHHHHH&quot; for the crowd to be quiet, or &quot;shush&quot; you.

Let's be frank: LIMITING the crowds means one of two things, either raising the price or selling tickets in advance (maybe a third option would be people lining up the night before to be among the limited guests the next day.) Certainly if the admission is doubled, or tripled, there will be amplified complaints of &quot;gouging&quot;. If the numbers are limited (cut from say, 10,000 a day in the VM to a sane 3,500), who will be allowed in? Maybe it should be me, as I am a painter AND a catholic! Then again, I'm gay, so I might be disqualified.

It's worth noting that the entry price at the Museum of Modern Art is now $20, and that's not out of line with many of the leading museums. It should be noted that the $13 E the Vatican is charging for general admission probably barely covers the wear and tear on the facility, and then there's the art conservation.

My favored system would be a written test: anyone who can't answer 5 simple random questions about Michelangelo and the Chapel doesn't get in. (And I only have my tongue partically in cheek when I say that.)

I would LOVE to see a saner system, but I reckon that those who complain about the church and it's system loudest would be totally p.o.'d if they couldn't get in at all.
It seems like the crowd on this thread - not unruly, loud, pushsy or shushy at all - would be happy to buy a timed ticket in advance. (Obviously most of the folks hereabouts at Fodors could get jiggy with the idea of ordering tickets before leaving home ...) Maybe thoughtful letters to the Vatican Museums would be effective.


&lt;&lt;Most of the Catholic Churches in Europe don't charge anything to go inside to worship or look at the arts there. Including St. Peters.&gt;&gt;

True. There is no admission at any of the great and beautiful churches in Rome, that I know of. The Vatican Museums are ... MUSEUMS. Private Museums, for that matter. The churches are wide open for hours every day, for the benefit of all of us. I could easily fill a day showing someone works of art and architecture in Roman churches that easily rival, if not equal, the Sistine Chapel: S. Maria del Popolo, with it's Berninis and Caravaggios; Il Jesu; S. Maria MAggiore and it's own Sistine Chapel; s. Pietro in Vincoli with Michelango's Moses and Julian tomb; S. Sabina, one of my favorites; S. Cecilia in Trastevere, with the Maderno Cecilia; the mosaics of S. Maria in Trastevere; S. Pietro in Montorio and the Tempietto; and of course, St. Peter's Basillica.

I'd love to see a change in the system at the VM, and a separate entrance/admission to the Sistine Chapel might be a great solution. Beyond that, to say the Church is grubbing for money when every other RC treasure in Rome is available to us all for not so much as a Eurocent is, to be fair, inaccurate.

&lt;&lt;... openly ignoring the &quot;please don't take photos&quot; rule. It was the one thing (besides the loud talking) that detracted from the otherwise positive experience.&gt;&gt;

The Borghese in Rome requires cameras to be checked before entry. I'll bet the Vatican would love to do that, except for the expense and time required. A logistical nightmare. The crude guy mentioned above said he'd do what he wants in a &quot;public place.&quot; As if the VM is a public place. And as if any public place doesn't have the right to regulate behavior. I'd love to see people like that tossed out now and then. Again, a logistical and cost issue, as well as a desire to prevent violent conflicts.

bkmkg

I was also there when you were still able to line up early and make a bee-line for the chapel. It was wonderful to be able to see it from all different positions and angles when it was quiet. Unfortunately the guards NEED to shush people because they can't seem to accept that it's a chapel, not a bus stop. I loved that guy's booming &quot;SILENCE&quot;.

It's not true that &quot;other churches don't charge.&quot; I paid to see El Grecos in churches in Toledo and the Brancacci Chapel in Florence, and given the lower volume per euro I paid there, I reckon the Vatican Museum is a bargain.

Maybe timed entry is the answer, since it seems to work in similar situations, like The Last Supper in Milan. I don't hear nearly the uproar about people not getting in there that people here are fearing about the Sistine Chapel. It also seems like a large % of the visitors are only traipsing through the Vatican Museums to get to the Sistine Chapel, so perhaps making that separate admission/entry would work as well.

What concerned me more than being ushered through with the crowd was waiting in line outside for around 2 hours. No metal detectors bomb detectors outside. Every time we had to wait in line to see the major attractions in Italy and elsewhere in Western Europe, I thought to myself there must be thousands of people waiting in this line and thought how easy a target we would have been for any would be terrorist. Not sure if i was just being paranoid but it was on my mind.

We paid to get into a few other churches in Italy when we were just there, so, you definitely do pay at other sites. I am sorry the poster had such a bad experience, but had there been a little research done before the visit, some of it might have been avoided. We didn't do a ton of research, but I found out enough that we went right to the Sistine Chapel and then looped back around to see the rest of the museum using that back left door. I'm curious what door drops you out on the street. I might have missed that one. Our mistake was going right to the SIstine Chapel and not enjoying the museum the first time around as it was kind of long to go all around again. However, I had booked an early admittance with that group mentioned that disbands just after entering. We had the Raphael rooms and much of the rest of the museums to ourselves. The only crowded spots at that time were the Map Room and Sistine Chapel. We regret rushing through when we had so much of the museums to ourselves the first time around.

There are three doors at the Sistine Chapel. One which you enter, and two at the back for exiting.

The one to the right drops you to alley between the Sistine Chapel and St. Peter's. It's a shortcut that's been mentioned in Rick Steve's guide. But it has a pretty clear sign that says <b>for tour group use only</b>. And if you rent the audio guide, you won't have a chance to return it.

The one to the left is the regular exit, which loops you back to the museum.

If the OP went out the door to the right, she has ignored the sign.

I'm a little confused. The Vatican Museum website says the museum tours for individuals are at 10:30, Noon and 2pm. It also shows information on &quot;Group Tours&quot;, but no hours are shown.

Am I reading the info in this thread correctly...that &quot;private&quot; tour companies (Icon/Perillo/ AngelToursRome) are allowed into the VM earlier?

I sure would like some input from y'all...

My adult daughter and I will be in Rome for only 2 days. We arrive on Monday night late, the 22nd of October. (Can I safely assume lines will be somewhat shorter this late in the season?)

We have a confirmed Scavi tour for 9:15am on Tuesday. I noticed that the Scavi tour begins and ends at the Excavations office...which appears to be directly across from the Sistine Chapel. Anyone been on this tour? Were you allowed to go directly into St.Peter's Basilica from the tour? Any way to get to the Sistine Chapel from the Basilica or no?

We certainly want to get the most out of our visit. So I'm thinking some kind of tour is better than none, am I right? (My daughter and I are both educated and able to read from any recommended guides, but we love the &quot;extras&quot; we hear that tour groups get from a guide.)

Other problem. We really only wanted to do one day in Vatican City, but we also will be picking up tickets for the Papal audience on Wednesday morning at 10:30. We were thinking Vatican all morning-early pm on Monday, then doing some other churches we'd like to see. We are going to try to hit some of the churches early on Tuesday morning, as we know some open as early as 7am. We're going to try to plan it so those are closer to the Vatican, so we won't have far to go for the audience. When done there, we want to do a Colisseum tour, as we have an 8:30pm flight to Paris from Ciampino and have been told we should be to airport by 5:30. (We are leaving some luggage at the Termini station when we arrive, so will need time for our driver to stop there and pick up luggage, then drive to airport.)

Any input/comments/suggestions are MORE than welcome. I love yous guys!!!

Thanks!

Paula

PS Tomas...thanks for the list of your fave churches. I know there is another link here I've bmarked, but I really love your posts and feel you are a kindred spirit! :) And it is a shame that the MET special exhibits have come to seem like a 3-ring circus. We have the incredible Kimbell Art Musuem in Fort Worth, and Dallas' aren't bad either! I was fortunate to see the best of exhibits (Treasures from Catherine the Great, Soviet Space, etc) without the crowds. Most exhibits at the Kimbell are &quot;timed&quot; entries...the entrance/exit to special exhibits are directly across from one another. 5 people exit, 5 more are let in. :) Works great. Unfortunately, recently went to a wonderful exhibit of Impressionist art at Houston's beautiful Museum of Fine Art. Admittedly, it was the last day of the exhibit, but even with &quot;timed&quot; tickets, it was way overcrowded and I found myself annoyed to the point where I could not enjoy the exhibit as I should. I kept wondering how they could possibly control the humidity level with so many people in each of the small rooms. (And isn't it about time that museums got &quot;politically incorrect&quot; and handed out &quot;Do's and Don'ts&quot; for viewing??? I'm SO over the guy in the sleeveless shirt and what look like boxers, the people who stop directly in front of you while you're viewing [as if you're invisible!], the people who read the info plaque out loud, and the people who bring their very young children [in strollers, no less!], as if they would be held spellbound for 2 hours, let alone 10 minutes!!!) ok...another thread I reckon'... :) :):)

sarge56 - The group reference on the Vatican web site is if you want to bring your own group on one of the Vatican sponsored/led tours. Outside tour companies are allowed to schedule their own tours with their own guides (not Vatican guides). They have access starting at 8:15 while individuals aren't allowed in until 10:00. So your options are:
1. Take an &quot;individual&quot; tour by the Vatican at 10:30, 12, or 2, which will include other people. You aren't a group so you can't schedule your own group.
2. Take a tour with an outside company(Perillo, Context, etc)which won't just be morning tours. These companies offer tours throughout the day, not just from 8-10.
3. Stand in line for an entrance ticket on your own.

No, you can't enter the Sistine Chapel from St. Peter's. You must enter through the Vatican Museum.

Tomas, you wrote that
&quot;(Obviously most of the folks hereabouts at Fodors could get jiggy with the idea of ordering tickets before leaving home ...) Maybe thoughtful letters to the Vatican Museums would be effective.&quot;

Earlier in this thread (way up), I quoted the Vatican Museum page that relates to faxing to get reservations for a particular time on a particular day to take their 'guided tour' which costs about $10 more and guarantees you NO WAITING in line and also entry by the exit door. If you don't like tours, you're allowed to just walk away from the tour once you have the tickets after you get inside. One can be on their own, but our tour guide, an older woman, was quite wonderful - very enthusiastic and very informative. We didn't always stay with her but went back and forth between interesting rooms and caught up with her (because we'd been given headphones and could hear her from wherever we were).

It was crowded, but doable. We did sit down a lot, in the rooms, as the heat can make you more tired in a crowd like that. This was in May though. July must be horrible.

I also posted a phone prefix from the U.S. that allows us to call Italy for 10c a minute from any phone, and it worked for the fax. I faxed my order from California. When we arrived in Rome, the Vatican had faxed to our hotel the confirmation of our reservations for the next day at either noon or 12:30pm (can't remember). We walked right up to the officer who had a list of those with appointments and we went right in.

It's important to use that feature if one doesn't want to wait in long, long lines, just to get in, because the walk inside, as you know, is long enough as it is (but very rewarding).

After we left the Sistine Chapel, we were allowed to go enjoy St. Peter's, which was not crowded at the time we went. I had been there in 1953 when only 14 but was eager to see the Pieta again and really was thrilled to see it again even if through glass now.

- Andrys

Thanks, Sarge, KYBourbon and Andrys (et al) for detailed info.

Sarge, I may have made it seem like the blockbusters are &quot;insufferable&quot;, when in fact they are sufferable. I still have to hoist up my tolerance for the kind of insensitive &quot;museumgoers&quot; you described. (I can't really think of them as art lovers.) Of course, I could JOIN the Met again, which would allow me to go to some of those shows during members only time periods.

On the other hand I've been able to watch the new series The Power of Art on PBS with no one else in the room at all ...

tomassocroccante,
I do know what you mean, and starting with King Tut. BUT I just remembered that I was in the SF Symphony Chorus at the time and we were singing for the preview audience (rich folks) for the private opening. As a reward, they let us see the show before anyone else arrived, so we had the place to ourselves. When I went back to one room to be mesmerized, alone, by a face in a glass case, two guards stood beside me, looking sure I might disappear with the thing somehow! :-)

What a great way to see the exhibit though! I returned during regular hours and still enjoyed the amazing exhibit.

PBS shows and Discovery Corner (especially on HiDef) can almost substitute for the real thing but not quite. I'm reminded by how absolutely blown away I was by seeing The David in person even after a documentary of it after restoration, close up etc. No comparison, actually. There is something about 3-dimensional space, your being able to view it from all sides not dictated by the cameraman -- but, yes, it's nice to not have the tired feet, shoving crowds and near-collapse from not being able to breathe. BUT in the Accademia, it wasn't too crowded at all. The Sistine was filled with people but very manageable. They let you relax in there, sitting in the pews against the wall and just taking it all in. It helps if one knows the story behind the ordeal of painting it though. I am still in awe of what was done by Michelangelo and fascinated by the details in King's book, &quot;The Pope's Ceiling.&quot;

One problem with having a reservation system is that tour companies will buy all the reservations and then re-sell them for a huge profit. It will be hard for the individual to visit on their own and would require advance reservations. Many tour companies already do this with the Vatican Museum tour.

I think a set number of reservations per day would work with an option to wait in line to enter. Also, at the time of the reservation request full name of each person must be given - no changes allowed. This would help prevent (nothing is fool proof) tour companies from making block reservations for re-sale.

I don't think a seperate entry for the Sistine Chapel would work. There is no way to have people enter and exit easily from here. You have to take the whole thing, not just the parts you want - just like life.

Ah, suffer the little tourists with their check-lists to come unto the VM. &quot;Go away, you don't have the Proper Appreciation!&quot; ;)

Well, maybe the check-listers are worthy, maybe not, but the church is renowned for arguing that even if one soul amongst thousands is redeemed, that makes it all worth it. The points about fire control, prevention of damage, etc. are certainly apt, but we should remember that over the course of two milennium, crowds and Christianity have not exactly been mutually exclusive. One is taking on a lot of history here.

Besides, the poor in spirit are already guaranteed the Kingdom of Heaven. Nobody said anything about an unobstructed view of an earthly ceiling. ;)

Now, go, ye, and search out the rest of Rome. There's enough religious art in that city that one can all but stub one's toe on it. The VM/Sistine are lovely, but they suffer from promising too much in one place. Sometimes, when it comes to viewing art, less is more.

Ah Sue

Well said!!