Warmth vs Elegance in Europe - a Mother-Daughter debate
 

Hello all.
DH and I are traveling to Europe in their winter, landing in Rome on Boxing Day and spending the next three weeks in Rome, Florence, Venice, Interlaken and Paris. I am fully expecting it to be cold, so I was all ready to wear my warm, layered, red and white ski jacket. My mother, however, having travelled in Europe a few times over recent years, is HORRIFIED, that I would be so inelegant. She says I MUST wear a smart, preferably long, dark winter coat of some kind eg wool/cashmere etc, because everyone in Europe is SOOO elegant and it would be just too scruffy for me to wear a ski jacket (horror of horrors). Now, I'm not sure that the word "elegant" has ever appeared in a sentence associated with me, so my argument is why would I try to be elegant in Europe, when I'm never elegant at home?? I live in Brisbane, Australia, where the dresscode is shorts and T-shirt, and a dark woollen winter coat would spend its life in my wardrobe never seeing the light of day. We are also trying to travel light, with a small suitcase each, to make train travel easier, so having to carry two jackets would probably take up half my luggage space ( I really think I'll need a ski jacket in the mountains of Switzerland).
So, fodorites, who is right? Do I spend more money on a coat I will never wear again, or do I take my skijacket as planned. Will I stick out like a sore thumb, and be embarassed to leave my hotel? Will I be shunned, pitied, or spat on??? Or can I just be warm and happy?
Cheers!

Well, Last time I was in Italy in winter, we hit some exceptionally cold days. Funny how many Italians own ski jackets!!!

Wear the ski jacket. The vast majority of people in Europe are not particularly elegant in terms of having to have a fashionable, long winter coat. And a nice ski jacket isn't exactly like wearing a ragged, surplus army field jacket from the Korean War.

Sorry, I am with you Mom. Been warm and elegant takes been warm and frompy any day....

I've been in Europe in winter. Seems like they had the full range going on. Dress coats and ski jackets. Wear what makes you comfortable. Some people like to dress so they have a lightweight jacket indoors, others like to bundle it down to the calves, some want a dress coat for when they go to restaurants/theater.

It won't ruin your trip.

A few thoughts:

You don't say your age range, but I think the younger you are the easier it is to pull of a red ski jacket! (IF you care, which you clearly don't but your mother seems to care for you or care how your appearance reflects on her?)

If you ski jacket is down, it can scrunch up really small and you can wear the wool coat for the plane/travel days, etc.

My girls are now in their 20's and they usually travel with a wool coat, which is nice for blending in a bit. On the other hand, they usually throw in their down puffer jackets, and wear those also, especially when they are not in the big cities.

You could buy the wool coat in Europe if you feel the need to have it once you get there. You'll hit the sales - my girls and I have always shopped great sales on our Christmas trips to Europe. A nice looking wool coat at a shop like H&M won't set you back all that much.

One thing we have seen a LOT in the cities in Europe in the winter is a long - usually dark - down coat. Chic and warm, and could be your only coat.

I would want to be in the middle of these coat choices, myself. A ski jacket is probably fine in Interlaken which is nothing but tourists, mostly.

I have a down ski jacket which I wear skiing and it does NOT scrunch up into almost nothing. It depends how thick the down is. Even when I take it skiing, I won't wear it around town and that's a ski resort, it isn't what I would feel comfortable wearing around any more than I'd wear my nylon ski pants around town in the evening. However, it depends on the style of this ski jacket you are talking about. Partly, ski jackets are not that warm for just wearing around, not skiing, if they are short. Many of them are, and stop around hip length. That works when you are skiing as you need to ability to move your legs a lot and are exercising, but it is not particularly warm for regular wear as your butt can freeze off. I don't know what you mean by a "layered" ski jacket exactly, and the red and white part is probably part of the problem, also, depending what that looks like. Just too casual and sporty for wearing around a city. If it were a fur-lined hood black ski parka, okay (I saw a Russian wearing one like that when I went skiing last March).

I would personally want some kind of coat other than a ski jacket described like that. But something cheaper and more versatile than a full-length wool or cashmere coat. If you never wear a coat at all, I can see why you don't want to buy one at all. Is there someone you can borrow one from or something? I'd go for something at least hip-length with some kind of zipout liner to be most versatile, in a more classic cut and color.

There is no "dress code" in Europe...your MOTHER ISN'T GOING on this trip, is she?

Now, your question was?????

How about a wool pea-jacket type coat.

Get something practical that is water resistant and warm. The last thing at least to me to care about is how fashionable I appear.

A nice ski jacket in Interlaken?? Yikes mammamia!! Don't worry. If anyone cares enough to look at what you are wearing they will simply think you are either a tourist or a local NOT going off to your job or a meeting in your heeled boots and your long coat. Clean, neat and polite is always the key. Have a great trip!

drjem wrote: "everyone in Europe is SOOO elegant"

Has your mother been to Europe? Has she met me?

Certainly nobody will care in Paris. We put on whatever will keep us warm during the winter. That's all that counts.

I would generally wear a long, padded wool mix jacket or a long down jacket. These are very popular in most of Europe, and very warm. I think it would be scruffy to wear a ski jacket and would feel uncomfortable, but I like to dress up a little bit.

I am sorry, what is the question?

Will a red and white( I sort of think the red and white part is the real sticking point, I am imagining something quite bright, I may be wrong though, , LOL ) ski jacket look out of place in Rome and Paris, ,, yes,

do you need to care about this?
No.

I have never seen so many lovely long fitted wool coats as I saw a few years ago in London, I thought most people ( including the younger set) looked very smart in the wool coats, not at all like we dress here at home in the winter, where we are all about gore tex, fleece, down, etc etc,, LOL

So basically your mom is NOT totally off base, BUT, there will be others dressed like you ( may be not red and white, LOL )and frankly what do you care if you are warm and happy.

PS Down ski jackets are not good in rain, and many of places you mentioned are likely to be very wet, hope you bring an umbrella or have a gore tex shell.

I was just about to post when Mariposa did and she is spot on with here advice.

Since you asked the question, you DO care about 'doing as the Roman's do' and as your Mum suggested, so you should. You will feel more comfortable and, frankly, you will get better service in stores, restaurants etc.

Yes, it does matter: the Italians are wonderful, welcoming people but their national obsession with judging people by how they present themselves is not exagerrated.

She is from Australia, not Italy. She won't be judged in the same manner.

Bring your ski jacket and if you feel underdressed, buy a coat in Europe. It will be a great souvenir.

I agree with a few others that the problem is not the <i>ski jacket</i> itself, but the <i>red and white</i> part of it.

Can you buy a new ski jacket with more subdued color? Preferably one that is water-repellent.

That way, you'll still get to use it in the future, yet it won't stick out like a sore thumb since your RED and WHITE one will.

Being part Italian myself, I can tell you that the Italians DO look down on scruffily dressed people, wherever they come from. They consider it a bit disrespectful to be underdressed at restaurants and the like, and you are more likely to get a better reception being well dressed. I think the best thing would be to wear a long padded coat and be stylish AND warm - that would be doing as the Romans do. Of course, you can wear whatever you want, but most people in Europe don't walk around in ski jackets so it depends how much you want to stick out. You won't be shunned or pitied or spat on though, haha.

Who cares, wear what is warm and comfortable. I think it is your demeanor that counts. Being in our fifties and still receiving offers from strangers in Europe to come for dinner or even spend the night (Amboise), I do not think they cared about my ski jacket that I always wear.

People in Europe seem to go out of their way to be kind, helpful and friendly when one shows some interest in their culture and if you are able to laugh and enjoy the moment, they are not interested in my coat or lack of one. Just my opinion.

Your ski jacket may be a bit too warm in Rome or Paris. But you want to have it in Switzerland. So, take two jackets. Or buy one lighter jacket when in Italy.

I live in Munich, and we get MANY Italian tourists in winter.

Clothing-wise they come in two groups:

Group A is wearing their michelin man style Helly Hansen down jackets (even when it's way above freezing and not an inch of snow) as if they have been skiing downhill right into the Hofbr&auml;uhaus. So, please, don't try to tell me that Italians don't wear ski jackets. Maybe not at home.

Group B is wearing &quot;elegant&quot; clothes and leather slippers (even when there is half a meter of snow and temps below -10C). But hospitals are ready to offer accomodation for those fashion victims with broken ankles.

When I was planning to go to Copenhagen and Stockholm right after Christmas, a few years ago, I had to buy a coat. I found a very inexpensive mid-weight, black wool, ankle length wool coat, on line. It was at JC Penney, a sort of &quot;middle road&quot; department store here in the states. It was only about 75.00.

I loved that coat. I could layer under it, which I did, it was not too heavy to carry around in the stores, and the length kept my legs warm when we were out walking. The high's were in the low 20's during the day. My brother had a short jacket and his legs were always freezing. Maybe you could find something fairly inexpensive like that. If not, they will NOT throw you out of the country, so the ski jacket would work.

A few years ago I took a hip-length black down jacket to Europe. The next trip I went for a black pea coat. Neither covered my torso/legs enough. Now I travel with a knee length black wool coat and LOVE it. Not too long, not too short, just right. I can layer it with merino or cashmere sweaters (lightweight, compact and warm), silk turtlenecks, long undies, and be perfectly warm even in very cold weather.

(sorry, in my first reply above, I thought your mother was traveling with you!)

If you were leaning towards buying a new coat, you could check out used and vintage stores -- I buy my coats used all the time. At a fraction of the cost of new, I can afford my addiction. ;)

I agree with luciegirl. Go to a nice consignment store or vintage place and get an inexpensive good-looking mid-length warm coat. I'm not particularly interested in being elegant when I'm traveling, but personally I wouldn't be caught dead in a red and white ski parka anywhere but on the slopes. Nor is the only other option the wool/cashmere long winter coat. There are MANY options in between those two extremes.

I agree that Europeans aren't necessarily going to care what you have on, and if you don't care either, well, wear what you want. My own personal comfort zone wouldn't allow me to walk around major European capitals in a red and white parka, though.

Plenty of Parisians wear their ski gear if it gets really cold, which is extremely rare (during many winters it never even gets down to freezing a single time in Paris -- I think last winter we got down below 0° just two nights, and it was maybe just -2°). And since it normally doesn't get cold, most people don't even own extreme cold weather gear except what they already have for skiing.

Nobody cares what you wear.

Do you honestly think Anna Piaggi is going to be hiding in the Uffizi ready to snap your picture for Italian Vogue?

Wear what you normally wear at home.

Why do people think that when they go on holiday that they suddenly have to become a different person?

That's called being FAKE!

Thingorjus,
who was born in Europe and laughs his ass off when Europeans are described as &quot;elegant.&quot;

I LOVE all these replies - thank you all heaps!
No, Mum isn't coming with me.
I agree it is probably the red and white that bothers me a bit.
I don't particularly worry what others think about me, but I don't like sticking out either. I always choose comfort over fashion.
My coat isn't down, and doesn't scrunch that well. It has an inner zipped-in coat that can be worn on its own which is a sand colour.
So, as others have suggested - maybe pick up a coat in the sales (winter coats in Brisbane when heading into summer should probably be cheap), or get one over there if I need to.
Thanks heaps and have a great day!

Wear your ski jacket. You need something warm, wind- and rainproof. A wool coat is about the most unpractical clothing in bad weather, these things are heavy and take forever to dry after a walk in the rain. I don't understand how people recommend them for travelling.
You're a tourist anyway, no one cares how 'elegant' you are or aren't. Wear what you feel most comfortable in.

How to put this nicely? Your mother is wrong. Europeans are not especially well-dressed. Just wear what is comfortable and warm.

Doesn't have to be a choice between the two-- a down coat in a subtle color would be both warm AND elegant.

I think a ski jacket would probably be too warm, perhaps even uncomfortably so.
I'd bring a longish coat instead, and possibly pack a fleece that you can layer if it gets very cold or take off if it's too warm.

To heck with elegant.

To stay comfortably warm in all circumstances you need two items of apparel: a rain jacket/windbreaker and a polartec (fleece) jacket. If it rains, wear the rain jacket, if it is cool, wear the fleece. In Switzerland, wear them both. You can probably get them both in black. The bonus is that you can probably get some use from them once you are home in Brisbane. An additional bonus is that the fleece can double as a pillow when in transit. The raincoat can also be very useful because when in transit, you can keep heavy things in the pockets (well, not liquids) and come in under the weight allowances.



Confine the rest of your wardrobe to items that look okay poking out from under the raincoat.

drjem, I'm from perth so i understand your dilemma - I agonised over this ery question before I visited these places in January '05.

in the end, I just took a Rainbird jacket (mid thigh) and a black blazer that I already had (synthetic fabric but like a brushed wool - reasonably warm for a Perth winter). My intention was to buy a coat in the sales but I never did. Too busy to shop or the most part.

Most of the time I layered with thermal, jumpers etc underneath and felt like the Michelin man but was warm enough. Rome was actually quite warm, like a cold Perth winter day.

Paris was freezing, but it was the cold winds that got to me. Most of the time you are walking briskly or inside highly heated buildings, so you might need to shed the coat. I guess it partly would depend on the activities you are planning to do. I know I did feel better for being a little more dressed up, but I am probably more the age of your mother! In Rome I felt like I was the only woman my age without stilettos and a long fur coat (and they looked real), with a cigarette in one hand and a tny dog in the other.

The Europeans seem to be able to rug up to the max and then they can sit in heated public transport and go into shops etc without taking off the coats, scarves etc but I'd be getting all hot and bothered.
And the Italian children were all rugged up like for a day in the snow on a day when Aussie kids would be fighting against putting on a jumper of any kind!

drjem, I'm from perth so i understand your dilemma - I agonised over this very question before I visited these places in January '05.

in the end, I just took a Rainbird jacket (mid thigh) and a black blazer that I already had (synthetic fabric but like a brushed wool - reasonably warm for a Perth winter). My intention was to buy a coat in the sales but I never did. Too busy to shop or the most part.

Most of the time I layered with thermal, jumpers etc underneath and felt like the Michelin man but was warm enough. Rome was actually quite warm, like a cold Perth winter day.

Paris was freezing, but it was the cold winds that got to me. Most of the time you are walking briskly or inside highly heated buildings, so you might need to shed the coat. I guess it partly would depend on the activities you are planning to do. I know I did feel better for being a little more dressed up, but I am probably more the age of your mother! In Rome I felt like I was the only woman my age without stilettos and a long fur coat (and they looked real), with a cigarette in one hand and a tny dog in the other.

The Europeans seem to be able to rug up to the max and then they can sit in heated public transport and go into shops etc without taking off the coats, scarves etc but I'd be getting all hot and bothered.
And the Italian children were all rugged up like for a day in the snow on a day when Aussie kids would be fighting against putting on a jumper of any kind!

I would say bring whatever coat you are comfortable in, and travels well. If it's the ski jacket, and that is your style, and it matches your lifestyle, you are probably safe in 90% of situations you will encounter. As long as black tie functions, or 5 star restaurants are not on your agenda, take it. As others have said, you can always shop over there. You could also pack a heavy sweater and maybe layer it with a down vest. Or, if you had a ski jacket with removable sleeves, that converts to a vest, that might solve some of the climate issues...

Just thought I'd send an update to my original post. I opted for practicality over fashion and took the red ski jacket - and boy am I glad I did. It was fairly mild in Rome, but hovering around and below freezing point in Florence, Venice and Paris. Switzerland was -16.5 degrees C at one part. So, I may have looked like I was about to hit the slopes but I was warm most of the time. And yes, no-one else seemed to care what I was wearing, even in a posh restaurant in Paris, and yes I did look like a tourist - but that is what I was!! The only time I remember seeing someone &quot;looking down on me&quot;, as it were, was when my friend and I were tucking into our delicious pastries on the street, rather than sitting down somewhere - but boy were we enjoying them!!!

Thanks for coming back with an update!

This just goes to show that the many of us who say that tourists are not expected to dress the same as locals (who are on their way to the office) have it right!

Hi drjem, I live in Sydney and found a lovely wool/cashmere knee length coat in a &quot;salvos&quot; op shop last winter - $30 and almost vintage!! Not sure how old it is but it's in fabulous condition. Do you think you might find one in an op shop in Brisbane, or is the need for coats not so great, given your lovely climate (bet it's humid there now though. The weather in Sydney is evil at the moment - I wish I was in the European winter right now!!

I agree with those who say that you will be self-conscious in the major cities if you aren't reasonably dressed. Mind you it's not the end of the world, you probably will never see most of those people again :)

Every time we go to Europe I read threads about what to wear. My favorites have been the ones where people insist that NO ONE in London or Paris wears jeans, and that Americans ALWAYS stand out because they wear white tennis shoes. So I make a point of looking at jeans and tennis shoes. I'm officially reporting that in a line of about 50 people boarding an Aerlingus flight to Dublin, the only people in line with bright white tennis shoes were the Irish family in front of us. The Americans had on mostly grey, black, or brown shoes. And standing in a large group of mostly locals crossing the street in Paris, I counted and over 75% of the people were wearing jeans. My conclusion: questions and answers about what to wear for the temperature or weather conditions can be helpful. But when it comes to fashion people simply project their own fashion ideas into the situation. Some insist that you are elegant whether you are at home or on vacation. Others insist you be comfortable and yourself at home or on vacation. The only fashion sterotype I've read about on these boards that I've actually found to be true is that it is rare to see an adult male in Italy wearing shorts.