UK train question
 

My husband and I will be in UK in January.
Our itinerary:
3 nights in London Dec30-Jan2
3 nights in lake district- probably Grasmere. Still researching this part.
5 nights in Broadway
Last night in a hotel near the airport.
We are thinking of taking the train London-Windermer. Rent a car and explore the area.
And then train to Cheltenham and rent a car to explore the Cotswolds.
Train to London and spend the last night close to the airport.
Please help me with these questions.
1) Is Cheltenham the right place to rent a car?
2) What car companies do you suggest in either places?
3) Is there any discount train tickets. Is there any train pass for tourists?
4) Is standard class good and comfortable or do we need first class tickets for train?
5) where would you stay in the LD? Is Grasmere a good option?

Thank you.

The Lake District in January? Sooner you than me... What are you thinking of doing there?

Have you looked at the weather in the countryside in January? Are you aware how short the days are and how early it gets dark?
Are you prepared for the cold and possible snow?

This seems like a great trip from April or May through October - but not midwinter.

I personally wouldn't go to the Lake District in January. It would be VERY weather dependent and there wouldn't be much to see/do.

The Cotswolds would be better, but still weather is an issue. I lived in the UK for several years and did do country 'stuff' in the dead of winter. But I had the luxury of being able to instead stay home in my jammies if the weather turned vile - which often happened.

Places I would NOT plan for January are the Lakes, northern Scotland, the Peak District, North Wales, or the Yorkshire Dales or Moors.

Other rural areas could be OK - but not if if it turns nasty.

It's even possible weather will make travel round the Cotswolds tough. My Cotswold town was cut off entirely (including the train service) for ten days in the 2010/11 winter and for four in the 2011/12 winter, and most of us avoided driving for non-urgent reasons for weeks either side.

England's generally benign winters mean we're not geared to deal with quite minor, short snaps of subzero temps or the very rare snow shower that sticks. In my part of the Cotswolds, we've only had any at all in three of the past eleven winters, and they've been predicted only a few days before. If they happen, they can hit any time between early December and the end of Feb.

I'd scrap your plans entirely. If you want to risk the Cotswolds (where the likelihood of chaos is lower than in the Lakes) it's ESSENTIAL to have travel insurance to cover you if you can't get there or get your plane home.

If you want to move your plans outside the winter anti-window, I'd also question your strategy. To my mind it's more of a pain (and takes longer) to get a train from Windermere to Cheltenham than to drive, and getting from Broadway to Heathrow's an even bigger pain. Just book a nonrefundable train ticket on www.nationalrail.co.uk as far ahead (but not more than 12 weeks before) to Windermere, hire a car and dump it at Heathrow. Or dump it at Oxford and get a bus straight into the airport.

No of course we don't subsidise tourists by giving them special deals on trains. Standard class is fine - and first involves absurd premiums (usually several hundred percent) over advance purchase standard tickets

If you do decide to stay in the Lake District in January, then weather is a large consideration. Grasmere wouldn't be my choice at that time of the year, but maybe consider Bowness. It's a slightly larger place with some good hotels and restaurants.

In the first week of January however, I'd guess quite a few places will be closed, especially in the smaller towns and villages. Your trip isn't best timed for the Lakes or Cotswolds so maybe consider larger towns or cities for your 8 days. How about Manchester, (loads to see and do),York and then Oxford, before flying home.

) Is there any discount train tickets. Is there any train pass for tourists?>

Well there is a BritRail England Pass valid on all trains in England and in off-season it is 20% off (for travel thru the end of Feb) but with only three train trips you are better doing the online discounted tickets flanneruk so eloquently describes.

However if you wanted total flexibility to board any train anytime then the pass could be economic as full fare at will tickets can cost a fortune - but if you are willing to lock yourself into non-changeable tickets far ahead of time (to secure as they are sold in limited numbers in each tier I believe) then do that - will be cheapest way by far I would think. Great sources of info on British trains - www.seat61.com (if interested in BritRail England pass info click on this site's commercial link to RailEurope US and if buying a pass do so thru this sites link to RailEurope to give Man a much deserved commission on sales thru his site; other nice sites - www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com.

after riding British trains for years IMO first class is way way superior and more comfy for the needs of the average tourist than standard or second class which IME often resembles a cattle car - well that is just my take others will disagree.

" first class is way way superior and more comfy for the needs of the average tourist than standard or second class "

Standard class London-Windermere (a 3 hour journey), booked 12 weeks out: £92
First class, same train, same time: £226.

Just how much "free" first class coffee can you drink in 3 hours to justify the £134 premium?

Unlike the America-resident BritRail salesman posting before me, I use standard class intercity trains several times a week. I've yet to encounter one resembling a cattle car in any way whatever. But pushing this myth maximises BritRail salesmen's commission.

Seems the OP was already warned about visiting the Lake District in January, but isn't listening:

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-cotswolds.cfm

standard class is perfectly ok and pleasant. If used in the rush hour (which varies by route) then they will be full. If not you can spread out.

Personally, I'd stay in London. There's a lot to occupy you there with possibly a short trip to Bath or Oxford.
I love the Lake District, but would avoid it in January.
If the OP is ignoring everyone's advice, then why bother asking?
I tend to travel first class to London by Virgin train because I have a senior rail-card and if I travel off-peak, I can do it sometimes even more cheaply than by travelling standard. You get the free coffee, free wifi and a meal or snack. There is also a bit more legroom. Apart from that, standard class is perfectly acceptable. Now that Virgin has lost the West Coast franchise, I am hoping that the service will not deteriorate. I'm not holding my breath

Standard class London-Windermere (a 3 hour journey), booked 12 weeks out: £92
First class, same train, same time: £226.>

flanner points out how really expensive first-class trains are in UK and thus illustrates how a first-class railpass can be a real bargain - nearly as cheap for 3 days of unlimited travel as just one train journey of a few hours.

<Just how much "free" first class coffee can you drink in 3 hours to justify the £134 premium?>

well with the railpass in first class the difference will not nearly be 134 pounds if you get a longer term pass and use this journey as one of your days - indeed a first class pass, for what it offers - much MUCH bigger seats - and always IME empty seats - lots of them - I always have a first-class pass and just hop on a train and always can put my bags on an adjoining empty seat - vs often now chocked full standard or second class if you have it seats that are not only much MUCH smaller but are these days often very full - not nearly as comfy nor enjoyble - more like IMO a Greyhound bus - so strongly consider a first-class pass whose benefits can quickly be realized in just one train trip as flanner points out above with regular fist-class fares. Again Off-Peak passes are 20% off - even a better deal if you want first class.

Thank you all.
I did not ask if I should go to LD or the Cotswolds in January. I have done my research and I know what i am getting into.
We love cold weather, snow and we will be happy to sit by the fireplace in a cozy B&B with a glass of wine at nights and not to receive any text or any phone call.
I had other questions and I received some helpful answers.
Thank you again.

"<i>we will be happy to sit by the fireplace in a cozy B&B with a glass of wine at nights</i>"

And very likely during the mornings, afternoons and evenings as well.

But you know so good luck . . .

I have done my research and I know what i am getting into.>>

adeleh - please tell us what the weather at the beginning of January 2013 is going to be like and where you get your information from - it'd be really useful to know whether i'm going to be snow-bound or not.

honestly, 4 years out of 5 you'll be fine - the 5th, better watch out.

I live in Cumbria - have lived here for over 25 years and holidayed here regularly before that - and feel people are rather sensationalizing the weather here. Sure, we can get snow at that time of year, but I'm not sure that's good reason not to plan a trip at all.

We've only ever experienced one cancellation due to weather with our own holiday accommodation here (and before someone says "you probably don't get visitors in January", that is not the case - our occupancy throughout the year is around 90%), and that one cancellation was because our guests were visiting from Scotland and couldn't get to us because of the weather there, not here.

In answer to the other questions:

Standard train travel is more than adequate IMHO. It's not like you'll be on the train for all that long anyway (less than 3 hours from Euston to Oxenholme).

Re: car hire. Enterprise have a base at Kendal. If you travel up on the train, you could get off at Kendal rather than going the whole way to Windermere, and Enterprise's place is very close to Kendal station.

Grasmere is very central to the Lakes but might not be the best base if weather is a concern or if you need to leave on a certain date (eg. to catch a flight). Basing yourself at more of an outlying location (dare I suggest Kendal) might be wiser, since it'll put you nearer the mainline train station and/or the M6 motorway - both of which might offer a 'get out' in more extreme weather conditions.

personally, I think I'd do this the other way round if i were going to do it at all, putting the London section at the end so as to give myself the best possible chance of being in the right place to fly home.

Also, New Year's Eve in a nice hotel in the Lakes would be lovely. it also saves a night in a grim airport hotel at the end of the trip.

that would give you this:

Dec30 - arrive london. ? fly to Manchester and hire car or take train to Windermere
Dec 31st.-Jan2 - Lakes
Jan 3rd - Train to Gloucester or Cheltenham. Stay 5 nights
Jan 8th - train to London. stay 4? nights [not quite sure how many you've got]
Jan 12th - fly home.

First class does not have to be expensive when you book in advance, i.e. can commit yourself on specific trains. And when you refrain from starting during the morning peak times.
For the aforementioned journey from London to Windermere you find many connections for GBP 43-59 in First Class. Some at rather ungodly hours, others at pretty comfortable times. You just have to look them up.

Whether First is necessary depends IMO on the specific service.
I traveled (literally) a few miles on the Virgin West Coast line Pendolino which was very fine and comfortable in Standard.
On the multiple diesel units of Transpennine Express, Standard was 3-2 seats in a row which made it cramped. First was nice with 2-1 spacious seats in a row. Here I was happy that I had secured a cheap First class ticket for the 1.5 hrs journey back to Manchester for GBP 15, one quite affordable luxury, no free coffee, though :-)
Just to mention the two services/ companies, OP may use when travelling.

All things considered, I found train travel in that little part of the UK I visited to be a far cry from the horror stories of endless and frequent delays, overcrowding and such. Though I did not travel in the greater London area, usually after 9am, and against the flow of the commuters. Nevertheless, any time I got to the station, just maybe 1-2 trains on the big displays that show 30+ arrivals and departures had been delayed.

I did not ask if I should go to LD or the Cotswolds in January. I have done my research and I know what i am getting into.

I had other questions and I received some helpful answers.>

janis was only being helpful not acerbic as you seem to think she were being.

How could we know you had done your research but more typically a novice traveler not realizing perhaps how dreadful the weather could be in a place like the Cotswold Hills in winter - she were only trying to be helpful and if interested in anything about the Cotswold Hills she is one real expert - in fact she IMO is the overall best expert on UK travel on the board! Local input is nice but it often IMO missed what the casual traveler from abroad is really looking for. Janis is a Yank but has spent upteem time in Britain - thus she can put herself into the shoes of a foreign traveler which locals often it seems do not and thus advise esoteric things that are nice but not always what the casual never been there before traveler wants.

I found your retort to janis' genuinely helpful comment a bit acerbic that's all.

Standard class London-Windermere (a 3 hour journey), booked 12 weeks out: £92
First class, same train, same time: £226.

Just how much "free" first class coffee can you drink in 3 hours to justify the £134 premium?>

well a first-class BritEngland Railpass for 3 unlimited travel days over a flexible two-month period can be as low as $240 - or $80 a day for fully flexible first class hop on at will travel (off-peak rates, add 20% for travel March thru Sep) - let's see $80 is just about 50 pounds - so flanner quotes a 12 week out price (probably non-refundable nor changeable and train-specific) at 92 pounds or about $150 in itself - I presume this is each way does not say return - so to go return at those '12 week out' fares would be about $300 for second class travel when a 3-day BritEngland Flexipass in First Class would total only cost $240 (off-peak) or $299 full fare on peak - this seems like a no-brainer to me and you can just hop on any train anytime.

This is predicated on flanner's 96 pound discounted fare bought 12 weeks out info. Now if he's talking about retutn then a bit different but still for a very little extra often a first-class British Railpass in first class may not be all that much over discounted 2nd class fares as flanner's pricing would seem to indicate.

Whenever I mention BritRail here flanner often calls me a 'snake oil salesmen' - well in this case and many others the snake oil may be good!

Someone please correct me if my maths are wrong!

Janis is a Yank but has spent upteem time in Britain - thus she can put herself into the shoes of a foreign traveler which locals often it seems do not and thus advise esoteric things that are nice but not always what the casual never been there before traveler wants.>>

Pal - i agree with you. sometimes us "locals" can't see the wood for the trees.

as for your maths, they seem OK to me.

Standard train travel is more than adequate IMHO. It's not like you'll be on the train for all that long anyway (less than 3 hours from Euston to Oxenholme).>

Again this could be good for locals but if you put yourself into the shoes of a baggage - typically too much baggage ridden foreign tourist then the benefits of first class are more than for just the average Brit who may be carrying at most heavy shopping as they are not hauling around stuff for a few week trip.

and storing luggage easily is infinitely easier in first class, where there is also never a rush hour when all seats may be full as it could be in 2nd class (it may not be either - not saying always chock full but I have had more than a few hellish trips on 2nd-class only trains that were incredibly over full.

And in light of the costs of a first-class BritEngland Pass, which allows you to hop on any train anytime) being apparently cheaper for the OP's plans that discounted and restricted second-class tickets that must be booked in stone weeks in advance to get well it is a no-brainer (again using flanner's fares for the Lake District trip as an example of this).

OP has 3 days of train travel it seems - London to Lake District
and back to Chelttenham Spa - train back to London.

A 3-day BritEngland Flexipass - three unlimited travel days over a 2-month period - not need to use consecutively would cost $199 for each person or about $400 total - this would be about 250 pounds or about 125 pounds each, in standard class and gives the ability to just hop on any train anytime - this comes out to about 40 pounds per each day - three train rides - for fully flexible travel.

flanneruk already said that about 97 pounds if ordered 12 weeks out (non-changeable I think not sure) would be the cheapest way to the Lake District - use the pass on that day and then you only need the other two tickets to cost about 25 pounds all told for the break even point -12.5 pounds for each of the other two train rides - a pittance really and again for this you get fully flexible hop on any train anytime freedom - no deciding 12 weeks in advance and locking yourself in, etc.

So even a few train trips the BritRail England pass can be a great deal - even cheaper than the discounted tickets in the case flanneruk illustrates of London to Windermere and also giving full flexibility to hop any train anytime.

That snake oil can be pretty useful sometimes!

I think the OP has gone.

I hope she has a nice trip.

OP - give us a report after y'all come back - yuh hear!

I am still here, reading and learning.
I learned:
Not to go to Grassmere and choose a larger town. I think it will be Windermer.
to go first class because of luggage problem.
the meaning of acerbic-I had to look it up!
I am thinking of reversing the order, I like that idea. We probably will be very tired by the time we get to LHR because of the connection and layover.

I can assure you all that we will enjoy our trip no matter what as long as we won't miss our flight back.
And hopefully it won't happen.
Thank you again.

adelah - nice to see you back here. IMO Windermere would be a good choice because of the rail connection and because it's bigger - plenty going on even if the weather is inclement.

you could contact the TI and ask if they can tell you of events in the area at the time you'll be there. I've never been to the Lakes at that time of year but I bet it's lovely.

PS - it's WindermereE.

oops - pressed once too often! Windermere of course.

I have stayed in Windermere a few times because that was where the trains come in - the railhead for the Lake District and found in a very delightful place - like annhig says - and if you get a place at Bowness (I believe that is what they call the lakeside part of Windermere) you can have lovely views over the lake and hills on the other side.

There are a bevy of B&Bs and guesthouses and hotels right around the Windermere train station and there is a large supermarket right there too to stock up on.

For train travelers Windermere makes a lot of sense.

Buses go everywhere from it including those open-top double-deckers (in season) circulate all thru the Lake District from Windermere. Never need a car in the Lake District - so many transport options from mini-buses to proper buses and footpaths...

adeleh - do report back afterwards - y'll hear?!

The only weather to visit there is August to October, or March to April. January and February will be very cold and you might not be able to enjoy as much as you will in the above mentioned weathers.

As a fairly new British expat I am also now a new convert to the Britrail passes which are marvellous value and also give you the flexibility to catch any train. The only point on which I'd differ from PalQ is that on a recent trip, every train I got was perfectly pleasant in 2nd class - not crowded and plenty of room for luggage - so I'm not currently inclined to pay the extra for 1st class. And if a horribly crowded train does turn up (as I've sometimes experienced in the past, particularly on Sundays), you can always wait for the next one.

Sorry flanner, but I'd have to say that this is a case of subsidising tourists by giving them special deals on trains - it is very unfair :-)

flanneruk calls it selling snake oil - those British Railpasses - something way way overpriced and a rip-off - that anytime I mention BritRail I am in his words a shill for something - welcome aboard the snake oil shilling ship.

In reality folks like flanneruk simply are talking out of their rears, not even knowing the prices and how cheap per day a fully flexible BritRail pass can be - and the Family Passes where kids uner 16 get a free pass or the Party Pass where the 3rd thru 9th person on the same pass gets 50% off - or the Take Along a Brit (name?) pass where a UK resident can get a free pass just to tag along.

Yup throw the baby out with the bathwater.

. The only point on which I'd differ from PalQ is that on a recent trip, every train I got was perfectly pleasant in 2nd class - not crowded and plenty of room for luggage ->

well I did not go to the UK last year so many the situation I have seen for many years in standard class has changed - maybe they are putting more trains on the tracks to meet what has been one of Europe's largest surges in passenger use of the rails.

Will be going again soon so will take notice. I'll still have a first class pass because even though 2nd class may be pleasant I have been spoilt by first class - rarely many folk there and seats so so much bigger and yes that complimentary tea or coffee and biscuit - on Virgin trains you indeed often get what amounts to full meals en route - non stop.

PalenQ - i agree about the first class. if you can get it for a good price the standard is so much higher and no fighting for seats or clambering over luggage, plus the free tea/coffee etc.

on our line in the mornings I can get a 1st class single for a 90 minute journey from my local station to Plymouth for £7.

7 pounds - the free coffee must be worth a few quid itself? 7 pounds for 90-min journey - wow in first class - why would not everyone go first class (serious question)?

Of course, in that part of the country, 90 minutes might not be a very long distance - and you do end up in Plymouth :)

why would not everyone go first class (serious question)?>>

no idea, Pal, but I'm glad they don't, the end part of the journey when you get to Plymouth sound and the Tamar bridge is one of the prettiest in the country, but then it rather goes downhill when you get to Plymouth!

[the line on the other side of Plymouth round Dawlish is spectacular too but I do that less often as it takes far longer to get to Exeter on the train than it does by car].

i make sure that I get my free coffee, snack and newspaper as well!

We ponied up for first class from London to Edinburgh. We also reserved a "quiet" car. It was a lovely experience and in six months I am not going to remember the cost. No wait, I don't remember it now, after three months! LOL!

Travelling First Class on First Great Western can be reasonably priced, provided you pick your trains carefully and have a railcard. The first cheap train back home from London for us is usually at 20.00, but there is a special first class waiting room at Paddington with armchairs and free refreshments, so catching a later train is little hardship.

First class is a lot more spacious, and the seats are more comfortable.