There is no organization more fearful of controversy than a tourist board. They probably described the invasion of the Nazis as large group of vacationaing culture vulures with extreme needs.

Thus Holland it is.

<i>Two weeks or so in Belgium and Netherlands
Posted by: IMDonehere on Dec 16, 13 at 2:26am
We are in the planning stages of a trip in late April or early May that will be limited to Belgium and Holland.
We will not bike as a form of locomotion but could rent a car to see things in the countryside.
Can you suggest serious writers of Belgium and The Netherlands who have been translated in English?
We are planning on eating Indonesian food in Amsterdam and any other ethnic food you would suggest.</i>

As has been mentioned a visit to Keukenhof should be near the top of your list. Here is my photolog of a bike trip from Haarlem http://tinyurl.com/5nwqzp. Of course you can drive, take public transportation, or go on a commercial tour.

Two of my favorite books on NL are "Tulipomania" by Mike Dash and "The Undutchables" by Colin White and Laurie Boucke. Both are current.
From the last century and beyond, if you can find them, I suggest:
"The Lands of Dykes and Windmills" by Frederick Spencer Bird, 1882.
"Through the Gates of the Netherlands' by Mary E. Waller, 1906. This is a beautifully written account of two Americans who moved to Holland a hundred years ago. I followed 70 years later. It is amazing how many things remain the same.
"Holland on Ten Pounds" by Sidney A. Clark, 1936. Twenty years before the famous $5 Frommer book this man did it for &pound;10, per week!

"Indonesian food" is OK if you like Taco Bell. I can't tolerate the smell, much less the grub. There are far better native places to eat, many of them.

I enjoyed Brussels quite a bit - we spent 3 days there and had a great time. I think it is one of the most under-rated cities that I have been to. But there are others who didn't care for it much.

I liked the general atmosphere of the city - it is fairly laid back and friendly while still being urban. We found great food and tremendous beer everywhere we went - add chocolate and waffles and it is heaven. We found lots of friendly bars and quite a bit of live music on weekend nights. I am a big fan of art nouveaux architecture, of which there is a lot in Brussels. I loved the comic murals on many buildings.

Thanks again including the book recommendations. It seems the time we will spend in Belgium is expensing.

Thus Holland it is.>

Only if speaking to non-Dutch - to Dutch we should be sensitive to their feelings and desires - The Netherlands it should be - but on a forum where most folk say "Holland" then Holland of course is fine but so is The Netherlands or the Low Lands for Belgium and The Netherlands as we learned in school.

That said, is the language they speak in Belgium, Belch?

<i>IMDonehere on Dec 20, 13 at 6:24pm
That said, is the language they speak in Belgium, Belch?</i>

Caution. Language is no laughing matter in Belgium. It is French (Walloon) in the south and Dutch (Vlaams) in the north. Bruxelles/Brussel is officially bi-lingual.

I will watch that.

Please do. Actually, it's not even Dutch, but Flemish. There are marked differences, and the Dutch and the Flemish don't go together as well as might be expected.

Belgium is involved in what can only be called a long secession. Flemish nationalists have always had the stench of nazi collaboration hanging around them and in fact two political parties (NVA and Vlaams Belang) are now political forces to reckon with, VB being a "reformed" movement. Yet from time to time photographs surface of VB members in politically compromising situations, usually with their right arm stretched out. The annual Flemish commemoration of WW 1, the IJzerbedevaart, is usually a venue for all kinds of neo nazi groups. There used to be a lot of resentment against Wallons for their former dominance of Vlaanderen along with a ban on Flemish and outright discrimination of Flemish speaking Belgians. Now that the French speaking part of Belgium has fallen behind and is dependent on the Flemish speaking part, only the Wallons are in favor of the Kingdom of Belgium and royalist, while the Flemish want secession or in any case a much loser federation and want to stop the flow of money from Vlaanderen to the Wallonie. The situation is especially tense around Brussels, which is officially bi-lingual, but which is being linguistically annexed by French speakers. There, something as innocuous as a cycle tour around Brussels through Flemish speaking municipalities can already create a lot of communal tension.

loser = looser (why no edit function? )

Great info to help us plan our trip to Amsterdam!

Thanks! :-)

As of 15 minutes ago here is the proposed itinerary

Day 1-Arrive Brussels (morning) walk around until we drop
2-Day in Brussels
3-Rent car head for Ypres
4-Day in Ypres
5-Drive to Bruges
6-Day in Bruges
7-Drive to Gent
8-Day in Gent
9-Drive to Oosterscheldekering in Holland and spend night in ANtwerp-drop off car
10-Train to AMersterdam
11-17 Amsterdam with day trips to Delft and Haarlem and maybe one other town by train.

We will get an apartment in Amsterdam, otherwise hotels and b and b's.

Thanks for the political landscape synopsis.

Gladly done. Europe, it's complicated, Belgium, a bit more so.

Looking like a great itinerary. If you visit the Oosterscheldekering, do remember to stop in nearby Veere.

http://www.planetware.com/netherland...-zld-veere.htm

There's a connection with Brugge too, as Veere took over as a Scottish staple town in the 1500s.

Thank you for the suggestion. A number of countries have complicated pasts which lead to complicated current issues. We are most familair with Spain which too has many languages, histories, cultures, and heritages that have created present day problems.

These are very interesting and manifest themselves in all sorts of overt and covert ways. It is this hidden world that is almost impossible to know and see during a short visit.

When people say you are spending too much time in a country, it usually means their interests are not the same as yours, and time is an issue. As noted we have spent considerable time in Spain and less in Italy, France, and the UK but there is never enough time and always another something to see.

I think you may have left too much time for travel on Day 7. Driving to Gent from Brugge is a very short trip. Of course you could spend more time in either Brugge or Gent. Or even take the train in from Gent to Brussels to see more of that city. Not sure how much time you are planning to spend in Antwerp but that city is worth at least a full day.

Day 7 would be a drive to Gent and the rest of the day in Gent. We might consolidate days 3 and 4 into one day at Ypres and add a full day in Antwerp.

In Amsterdam we will see at least three museums with a full day alloted for the Rijksmuseum and half days for Anne Frank and the Van Gogh. Right now there are free days in Amsterdam to walk the city and see other sights.

One of our favorite things to do in large cities, is to have lunch out and buy meat, cheese, bread, wine, chocolate, etc, and throw it in the backpack for a meal at night. That way you can have a sampling of the local stores and a feast. We are not shoppers unless we see something unusal and for a small amount of gifts.

If you like beer, don't forget to pick up some great Belgian beer while you are out buying your supplies for the evening. There is a link to a thread with beer suggestions at the end of my 2011 trip report from our trip to Belgium.

Horrors of horrors, I do not drink but my wife will try the beers. There is a small town near Ypres that supposedly is the epicenter for Belgian. Personally I looking forward to assaying the chocolates.

Belgium is home to the best Frites anywhere - french fries served in paper cups from ubiquitous Frites/Friten stands dotting Belgian streets - try the variety of different toppings like old standbys mayo and ketchup or curry sausce, etc.

A Belgian tradition.

Yes,yes frites are high on our list as well.

There is a place in our neighborhood that tries to emulate the Belgian version and that is all they sell. We shall see how they measure up.

For the benefit of others we will conduct an independent and exhaustive survery. We were looking forward to moules frites as well but we will be there out of season.

<i>IMDonehere on Dec 23, 13 at 8:45am
For the benefit of others we will conduct an independent and exhaustive survery. We were looking forward to moules frites as well but we will be there out of season.</i>

Brussels for mussels. Also try Antwerp. I think that the seasonality of mussels is history. They also come from New Zealand and other southern places.

You will probably also like <i>haring</i> in the Netherlands. <i>Haring</i> is raw herring. It is served from <i>vis</i> wagons which you can find scattered about in city centers. The best in Haarlem is the Lijnzaat stand at the Botermarkt, near the big V+D department store.

and of course Wafels... Belgian waffles

Anyone see the posting, "Am I too fat too travel?" Well, it will be only on the way back.

Is anyone familiar with these places to stay?
Thanks.

bruges
http://www.bedandbreakfastbrugge.be/
baert B&B 75E

Guesthouse Nuit Blanche
http://www.bruges-bb.com/bed-and-breakfast.htm

Ypres
hotel Kasteelhof 'tHooghe
http://www.hotelkasteelhofthooghe.be/

Ghent
Bon Vivant Boat
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Rev..._Province.html

Anyone see the posting, "Am I too fat too travel?" Well, it will be only on the way back>

Let's see Belgian chocolates (truffles are great) - frites - wafels all washed down by beer - only moules are not fattening - if they were not smothered in butter!

I will give you my narrow perspective, mostly of cultural stuff.

If you like Art Nouveau architecture, you are in prime territory. You will want to see the Cogels Oysylei district in Antwerp, several districts in Brussels (the Horta museum is a must-see) and stroll around the Hague. The Hague also has a fabulous small museum, the Mauritshuis, that has some very famous Vermeers (Girl with Pearl Earring etc.) so from a cultural point of view the Hague packs a real punch and is well worth the visit.

Ghent is a very nice walking city, lovely canals and old architecture, and has some excellent classical concerts, as do Brussels and (of course) Amsterdam. If you like classical music see what's up at the BOZART in Brussels, at the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam and, for that matter, wherever you will be. The quality is very high.

Bruges is heartbreakingly beautiful. Antwerp itself is reasonably attractive (and the Rubens house is interesting) and its main museum has an extraordinary Antonello da Massina Crucifiction, the brother to another version he did which is housed in the National Gallery in London. Amsterdam's art highlights include the Riijksmuseem, the van Gogh museum and the Hermitage. Smarter people than me can tell you more about those.

As you see, my suggestions are from a very narrow perspective, but I hope they are useful!

Oh, forgot. If you like chocolate, make a pilgrimage to Mary in Brussels. Just incredible.

Thank you. Please note that the Mauritshuis in The Hague is not scheduled to re-open until some time in June.

Thanks I did not realize that there was a branch of the Hermitage in Amsterdam.

We are always interested in architecture. We have spent considerable time in Spain and it will interesting to see the Belgian Art Nouveau as compared Gaudi or that in France.

We just booked our flights tonight for the end of April through the middle of May.

We chose one hotel, in Gent, with the silly name of Snooz Inn.

The pace of the trip will be incredibly leisurely, especially when you consider how close Belgium and Dutch towns are to one another.

DanLev, I will mention your name at Mary's.

We have a Bosch triptych print in the house. Forty years ago they used to sell prints at the Prado that were on canvas rather than paper. The difference in texture and appearance is striking. We have not seen them since. And we had a cockatiel named Bruegel but we never decided if it was the elder or younger.

So, we are very much looking forward to this trip.

Thanks for the reply. Mary is not a person, just the name of the chocolate shop, so they won't know me. Incredible stuff though.

Pity about the Mauritshuis. That's right, some of their pictures have recently toured here to San Francisco.

The Belgian Art Nouveau is similar to French, to my amateur eye. Gaudi is unique, of course, and a little too Dr. Seuss for me. I preferred others in Barcelona - the Eixample was fabulous to stroll around.

But you can track down some AN walking maps online for Brussels, and it's great to see in its natural habitat, as it were. I find the Horta Museum to be soul-satisfying.

By the way, the best art nouveau city I have been in is Nancy, in France. Better even than Paris, Brussels, Antwerp, Vienna, Prague or Barcelona. I haven't been yet to Darmstadt or Riga, though I want to. Nancy is something else entirely. If you haven't been, it is worth two days. Look at images online and you will see...

In general, the design element is very strong in the Low Countries for some reason. The Hague has surprisingly (for me) creative architecture. Again, you can find itineraries online.

Lovely to know that there has lived a cockatiel named Bruegel.

Oh, I forgot. I have a great B&B to recommend in Brussels: Chez Dominique. Very near the Central Station, lovely place, nice hosts, great breakfast, reasonable price.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Rev...-Brussels.html

I've spend days in Darmstadt and overall it is a dowdry modern blah town but perhaps I did not ferret out the art nouveau!

In The Hague, consider the Prins Willem V gallery as a destination.

It's separate from the Mauritshuis, but details can be found on the Mauritshuis site

http://www.mauritshuis.nl/index.aspx?ChapterID=8911

And Panorama Mesdag

http://panorama-mesdag.com/

an amazing visual experience

http://www.madurodam.nl/en/

and you can see all of Holland in miniature also in The Hague at Madurodam -for all ages!

Thanks all again. Will resume late Wednesday. Off to spend New Year's with a bunch of other old farts.

<i>I did not realize that there was a branch of the Hermitage in Amsterdam. </i>

And it's covered by the National Museumkaart.

<i>And we had a cockatiel named Bruegel but we never decided if it was the elder or younger.</i>

"Mad Meg" by the Elder is at the Museum Mayer van den Bergh in Antwerp.

If you have an interest in modern architecture, Rotterdam is filled with post WWII construction, since most of the city was bombed. Some interesting buildings, including the Kijk Kubus.

http://www.kubuswoning.nl/introkubus2.html

Robyn :)>-

Thank you. My interest in architecture is more about the aesthetic of an individual structure than any one style. I started to write about specific styles but there are always exceptions that I both love and hate. One constant,for me, is whether how any structure is designed with regard to what is surrounds it.

Thanks again.

Would that we might return and especially in the Springtime, Keukenhof Gardens being absolutely beautiful. You can easily cover your destinations via auto or trains. That's one advantage of a relatively small and easily traveled region. You are already knowledgeable and have good suggestions in this thread but I'll just post our own trip report which was however a river cruise. That is so easy with all the canals. No mayo on frites thank you. We did enjoy some extra days in Amsterdam and relaxing in Brugge. Yes, Delta Works an engineering feat worth exploring.
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...nd-belgium.cfm

Serious writers: I really only know a few but the fault lies with me and not because there are only a few. You might be interested in the work of Maurice Maeterlinck (a Flemish playwright who is very well known abroad, and who wrote in French); likewise a couple of modern authors who write travel literature such as Lieve Joris or Jan Brokken (I think Lonely Planet has published them in English). For the Netherlands, Harry Mulisch, who wrote The Discovery of Heaven, which is considered to be outstanding. Or of course there are classical writers like Joost van den Vondel (17th century), for whom Vondelpark is named.

Well, there would be more but maybe this will start you off.

For art: be sure to see the Horta Museum in Brussels. If you are interested in Art Nouveau there are whole neighbourhoods in that style and you can do tours that point out that style locally. There are dozens of artists in Belgium too, but again I only know the work of a few personally such as James Ensor, or René Magritte, who has his own museum in Brussels. In the Netherlands, be sure to get to the Kröller-Müller Museum in the Hoge Veluwe.

Lavandula