Underhill, do you have the name of the hotel in Petit Andelys?

Probably Hotel Chaine d’Or in Les Andelys www.hotel-lachainedor.com



Stu Dudley

I rode my bike by Les Andelys once and was stunned by the neat setting of ruined castle overlooking Seine valley far below.

If you are crossing time zones, please please PLEASE do not pick up a rental car at CDG! Although many people are not aware of it, there is mounting evidence that driving after crossing multiple time zones (the effects of which are often called jet lag) is just as dangerous -- to yourself and others -- as driving drunk, and nothing you can do will prevent the microsleeps (which you might not even notice) that are the apparent culprit. Seriously -- NOT a good idea, no matter your other constraints and no matter your prior experience! And please be patient with me if you think I’m being overly adamant, but I know too many people who have died or been seriously injured in accidents to which crossing time zones was a contributing factor, and I know too many people who will spend the rest of their lives dealing with the knowledge that they were responsible for accidents that resulted in multiple deaths, including those of children, all because they were too confident in their ability to drive safely with jet lag. The issue has become a bit of a cause célèbre for me….

(And Pal, you really should know better -- please don't make recommendations that undermine your credibility!)

kja - why not chastise underhill who did it? Tell him/her how foolish ti was. You state a personal opinion based on stats yes but some folks may actually sleep well on flights and can do a short trip - ask underhill? I did say or end up in a place near CDG.

@ PalenQ: You are right, I shouldn't have singled you out. I missed that Underhill had gone straight there.

But please understand: the risk is NOT related to whether one sleeps on a flight or not -- the problem is that one's biological clock must reset after crossing time zones, and sleeping on a flight doesn't accomplish that. And it's just like alcohol -- NO amount of driving is safe until one's clock has reset.

We fly from San Francisco to Europe about 2 times a year. This year it will be 3 times. About once a year, we'll drive from the airport (on arrival day) no more than 1 1/2 hrs to our first destination. The other times we'll take a taxi to Paris, for example, then head out the next morning on a train to a city near our first destination & rent a car there. We have been doing this annually since 1999 & no problems - yet. My wife does 100% of the driving (she can't navigate). We sleep well on the plane & have coffee when we land. Next June we'll fly to CDG, pick up a car, and drive to St Germain en Laye (short drive). Last year we drove from the Florence airport to Lucca. We've also driven from CDG to Epernay. About 20 years ago we "tried" to drive from Montpellier to somewhere more than 1 1/2 hrs away - and failed (had to pull over & get a 1 hr nap). I'm 71 years old & my wife is 69.


Stu Dudley

@ StuDudley: That you and your wife have been fortunate is, indeed, fortunate. But anecdotal experience is never a good substitute for empirical data.

Please allow me to add: Stu, you have provided a wealth of valuable information to Fodorites for many years now, and I am one of many in your debt. And while the odds are against it, I dread finding out that you or your wife -- or any of our fellow travelers -- have been among those who die, or who kill others, just because they drive any distance after crossing multiple time zones. The probabilities are low, but the potential costs are extremely high – and risk avoidance is easy: All one needs to do is spend a night or two using public transportation. Again, I’m very glad that you’ve avoided adverse outcomes, but I know too many people who did not.

We first started visiting Europe annually in 1977. From 1977, and until 1999 we visited Europe once a year. After that (when we retired), about twice a year on the average. That's 60 trips to Europe from San Francisco. On many of those early trips, we drove 2-3 hrs or so before reaching our destination. Perhaps 10-15 times. Then based on our experiences and discovering that we wanted to do less driving and spend more time "being there" - we shortened our first day drives. After our "Montpellier experience" we found that our "threshold" was 1 1/2 hrs for first day drives. Perhaps 1/3-1/2 of our "after 1999" visits have involved drives of 1 1/2 hrs or less. So that's 20-35 first day drives. That's a pretty good "sample", IMO. I totally agree with your advice - but we have found that sometimes it is necessary to "head out" on the road upon arrival. Last year, it was a choice between arriving 1 day early and consuming perhaps 3/4 of an hour finding accommodations within taxi distance of Florence, or arriving a day later and driving 1 hr to Lucca for our 4 night apt rental. This year, we arrived at CDG, took a taxi to a hotel in Paris before taking the TGV to Rennes the next morning then driving to our 2 week rental in Vannes.



Stu Dudley

Again, Stu, your good fortune does not translate to safety. You are, of course, free to make your own personal choice, but telling others that it is safe to drive after crossing multiple time zones is a very different matter. Maybe you don’t remember all the people who used to claim that they could drive perfectly well after drinking? IMO, that’s an informative example.

And sorry, but no, a 1 in 60 personal experience doesn't outweigh the statistical evidence of the risk.

>>but we have found that sometimes it is necessary to "head out" on the road upon arrival.<<

Sorry Stu -- but in this you are simply wrong. It isn't necessary. It may be convenient - but never necessary. There are always options - arrive a day early, change plans for the first day, take a train or bus, hire a driver - any number of other options. Have I driven right off a transatlantic flight - sure. Heck, once I popped off a flight at LHR and drove all the way to Edinburgh (don't ask . . .). But that was years ago and since reading the scientific and medical research I will never again drive right off an overnight flight.

Many people have driven hundreds of times close to or over the .08 legal limit never wrecking, killing anyone, or being stopped -- still does not make it safe. Same with jet lag/micro sleeps. Pal shouldn't recommend/advocate it, Underhill shouldn't, and neither should you. This is a very serious problem --

Maeves,
To answer your first question about medieval and gothic: I know what you are saying. Baroque and neoGothic are also great, but it's nice to see the older architectures without a Victorian makeover. Outside Paris, the only places I saw that fit the bill are Chartres and Rouen--both great, great cathedrals that would meet that standard.

In Paris: Besides Notre Dame, also visit Sainte Chapelle for its amazing stained glass, and the Cluny Museum, for the lovely unicorn tapestries and other medieval art. All of these are on the Ile de Cite. Saint Germain des Pres is from the 6th century. and is a lovely church.

The hotel is La Chaîne d'Or.

>> own personal choice, but telling others that it is safe to drive after crossing multiple time zones is a very different matter.<<


I don't think I "told others" that it was OK to drive. I just related our experiences. In fact, I stated

"I totally agree with your advice - but we have found that sometimes it is necessary to "head out" on the road upon arrival".

Maybe I should have used "convenient" instead of "necessary" in that statement, however.



Stu Dudley

Actually, the "Montpellier experience" was day 2 of our trip. We overnighted in Montpellier after arrival, and headed out for a 3 hr drive the next morning and my wife "crashed" about 2 hrs into the drive.


Stu Dudley

Stu, I think you are making good points, but we are derailing the OP's original post. And I think it's worth noting that she proposed bookending her trip with Paris at either end with the touring for the 7 days in the middle. So she herself is not particularly focused on getting a car at CDG and driving away.

I am opening a thread on the Lounge for people to discuss this further...

>>So she herself is not particularly focused on getting a car at CDG and driving away.<<


As many people advise, it is more efficient that people do not "bookend" with 2 stays in the same place. She'll need to get back to Paris at the end of her trip to fly home. That's why I advised her in post #16 to land at CDG and immediately take the TGV (no driving) to Reims - which is one of her destinations. That's exactly what we are doing next year.



I don't participate in the Lounge.


Stu Dudley

Let's let stats speak - don't drive after all-night flight - I was amiss to agree with what one poster did and in another post said to stay in Paris first and end up say in a nice town like Auvers-sur-Oise or Reims that is not far from CDG - end up there at night - return car and fly out next day.

I do understand why. I wish you would rethink that just this once. You are a valuable part of this forum, and someone whose advice has changed my own trips on several occasions. I agree with you in this particular case, but that's not really what concerns me. The problem I see is that we run down new posters with these disagreements and they don't come back. This board will not stay vibrant if we scare everyone away. That is not really an appropriate topic on the OP's thread, nor will people on the other boards even see this thread.