Clifton, just because some of us do not want to hear screaming kids does not mean that we hate other people. Perhaps you didn't mean it but your post has a sanctimonious ring to it.

Well, there is the time that we were seated in first class on a Swiss Air flight in which the FA wanted to know if our daughter would like to have the Mahi or pasta for dinner that was being served in coach. She tossed her little blonde five year old curls and retorted, "I believe I'll have the fish."

Out of the mouths of babes....

blah, blah, blah. I get it. Babies are evil. And heaven forbid any of you get stuck sitting next to one. But I got news for you. I don't plan on stopping travelling with my infant daughter anytime soon.


We took our nine month old to Italy last spring and it was one of the very best trips I've ever taken (And I've traveled *extensively*). She was a real trooper; if I knitted together all the minutes that she cried out of 30 hours of flying, it would be maybe 10 minutes. My husband and I made it our mission to make sure she was quite and happy the entire flight, forgoing sleep, movies, even meals. We knew that was our job when we decided to take her oversees.

When we landed in Italy, I can't tell you how many people were shocked to find out there had been a baby on the plane.

When we were coming home from Italy, there was a group of six elderly women who were so angry that they were seated near a baby -- "No offense," (sneer, sneer) I was told -- that they went through two fight attendants and the purser with their complaints before the plane ever took off. One looked at me three hours into the flight after my daughter had just woken up after a nap and snapped: "Shouldn't she be sleeping?"

Five hours into the flight, one of the said to me "Wow. Your baby is really good. I guess we've been more trouble than she has been." To which I responded: "Well, yes, you have."

When we fly, I do everything to keep her calm. But in the end, my only responsibility when we fly is to make her as comfortable as I can.

When I come across people so awful, it absolves me from worrying about their comfort because my daughter could have been silent the entire flight and she still would have been *horrible.*

>>I'd like to see a small I-hate-other-people section with plexiglass around it>>

I agree Clifton, there are all kinds of problems on flights from obnoxious drunks, the ego maniac who has to control the arm rest, the kid kicking the back of your chair, the person next to you who won't stop talking, crying babies, the guy who is snoring and drueling who keeps annoying everyone, someone who stinks, etc.

laurie, in response, all I can say is that you sound a bit less than charming yourself in this thread. Can you not tell the difference between screaming kids and those that aren't screaming? Do you usually judge other groups as a whole the way you judge parents or children and seek to put them behind walls as soon as you're aware of their presence? Seems if anyone has a superiority complex would be the ones that want on the "right" side of your hypothetical wall... until it was suggested you were the one being segregated. Then it sounds a lot less appealing, doesn't it?

I know of many kids who have traveled at least as much as the OP, based on the sorts of questions the OP seems to have posted, and have caused no more problems along the way. Some do, some don't. Some adults do, some don't.

Given that, how is bashing away at a demographic any different, simply based on personal bias than if it were done regarding the elderly or anyone else?

I believe that public transport and things that have no alternative should be made as accessible as possible to all and without the "back of the bus" experience.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, it is basically a public transport and anyone can access public transportion. It is no different than basically walking out your front door and confronting situations in any public sector.

BTW, I've had some very obnoxious flight attendents as well as the potentially deadly experience of a drunk pilot! So drunk, in fact, that the plane had to land and he was taken off the plane and we had to wait for a substitute pilot to take over.

It is these kinds of experiences that I would classify as a traveler's nightmare. Not a crying kid for heaven's sake :(

Mom23rugrats. I liked your story about the fish.

Yesterday, me and our two year old was riding the city buses each way and at either end, she paused as we got off to thank the driver for the ride. I know that sounds precocious, but I didn't teach her that. It's something people do here a lot and she must have been watching the other people at stops... because I have to admit, I'd forgotten to say anything myself! She's got better manners than I do apparently.

nanabee, yes - in my opinion it's very much public transport. I mean, here in Melbourne the trains are contracted to and run by a private firm. The city buses belong to one of three companies, not the government, and they have protected routes. They're not public?

With airlines, they are often subsidized in many places. In others, such as the US and Australia, they exist in protected markets. Markets that highly regulated, with regulators, inspectors and investigators paid by everyone's tax dollars. Markets that have been barred from foreign competition for domestic routes. And in a critically vital industry that has no real viable alternative for long distance travel.

Air travel IS public transportation.

Yes Clifton, I do know the difference. My suggestion was actually tongue in cheek but being next to a screaming kid for hours is pretty awful. So is having the back of your seat constantly kicked by a child sitting behind you. I understand that many parents do try and keep their kids behaved but equally as many do not and think that their little Johnny or Sally is oh so cute and thus everybody else on the planet must think so too.
Well, I've got news for them, I don't think they are cute. Unfortunately, many of these people do not recognize that their kids are misbehaving or bothering others and would plead innocent. What is not charming are kids who scream and parents who think their children have the right to disturb everyone within ear shot.

fwiw Laurie, I didn't have your own post in mind, nor your likely seriousness, when I rifted on the separate segment idea. The sectioned off idea was already on the table. You've got an OP way ahead of you in offensiveness and that's who I had in mind.

I agree with you about the type of situations you've listed. I just don't see why my family should be impacted by them when we're just as likely as you to dislike the people who let that go on and just as helpless to do anything about it. Blaming us for it on top of it isn't exactly endearing... you know?

What I would love to see is some small 'galley sized' alcove set aside for a parent to take their kid to in order to separate them and get them under control without impacting others (like those waiting for the lavs). But if I know airlines, anything that would make passengers more comfortable in cattle class ain't ever going to happen.

Although.. Qantas's A380s now have their own self-serve galley areas, with fridges full of drinks and snacks. Qantas seems to go further than most for trying to make econ customers a little more comfortable. Seats redesigns, VOD, the galley areas. Things like that. So I really hated seeing someone go after one of the best, rather than the worst of the companies that pile us all on top of each other.

Clifton, I think you have a pretty good idea. While of course it is unrealistic to force everybody with a kid into a special section, a small soundproof area with a few seats where the parents and kids can go to chill out for a little while. Most kids will scream for just a little while so it can be a temporary place to take them to quiet them down. Hopefully they won't all be needing it at the same time. Most are not like the kid on the flight to Hong Kong. I felt sorry for the mother. She really did try but nothing worked and she was making these loud odd noises which I think was her attempt at singing to try and calm the kid down and put him to sleep. It probably gave the poor kid nightmares! I don't know which was worse! But I have seen parents laugh when their kid goes around disturbing people too. At JFK a few years ago, while waiting to board in the gate area, a girl about 7 years old was walking around to everybody who was sitting and waiting for the plane to board and hitting them on the leg. The father was laughing and saying how adorable it was. I can tell you that he was the only one who thought so. I think some of the people were tempted to hit back but didn't. I got up and walked away in order to avoid the situation but that should not have been necessary.

Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. I usually like your posts.

I know what you mean laurie - there are some people out there that are really poor excuses for parents (IMO). Yes, that part IS sanctimonious, but at least based on observation and consideration. I hate seeing people let their kids run wild and think it's cute. Or on the flip side, completely ignore them while they absorb themselves in something else.

Then again, in 2010 America (and other places, I'm sure) there are more and more people who are not very good at being offspring. Or spouses. Or lovers, friends, neighbors, employees... or human beings in general.

I just didn't like being lumped in with them just because the youngest member of our family is 2. I'm sure many don't. I love her with all my heart and I love our time together. We hang out. But I'm kinda one of those dads with the raised eyebrow thing. Never mind a restaurant, we don't let her off the chair at *home* until she's asked, used the word "please" and one of us has said it's ok. Personally, we don't consider that to be letting her down as a parents and we think that helps prepare her to understand that what is expected of her and how that affects others.

But if she's done this, if she's a good kid, I'm offended for her when someone looks down their nose based on nothing but the sight of her and suggests she should be in cage or never see her grandparents. Based on the actions of kids, or really of adults failing to raise kids, that we've never even met. I've heard stuff to that the effect of those suggestions for ages...

To me, it's not very different than to be heard by everyone asking an FA if you can change seats right away because the of the likely or possible characteristics of the "old lady seated next to me". I just don't consider one assumption or followup action better or worse than the other. They both take a big group and assign a characteristic to them all based on the actions of some. And then act badly towards others due to that assumption.

Ageism I think is the strangest of them, in that our presence has already been 'imposed on' others along the way ourselves. But now we feel we're above having that happen to us. I kind of think it's the bill come due. :)

Clifton re: "To me, it's not very different than to be heard by everyone asking an FA if you can change seats right away because the of the likely or possible characteristics of the "old lady seated next to me".

I have to quote another post from the same astute commenter on that thread about a similar topic back in 2001. Sort of similar to the point you are making:

"Self-righteously singling out children for opprobrium is ridiculous: of COURSE children should be banned from all public places; just don't stop there.

What about all those creepy OLD people? They walk really slow and hold up everybody in the airport. Or even worse they get to ride in a wheelchair just because they're old and doddery, and they take up all kinds of room in the waiting lounge and then are rewarded by being allowed to get on the plane first. And they either talk really loud because they're partially deaf or they can't hear anything that's said to them. And they look so bad with their wrinkly skin, I really don't like to see them. And what the hell are they doing going to Europe anyway? They're probably just gonna die soon, so it's all wasted on them; they'd be better people if they just left all that traveling money to their heirs and stayed home cleaning their dentures.

Of course teenagers should be banned too because, well, it goes without saying: they're just obnoxious looking most of the time. They usually have a miasma of hormones around them that is practically tangible, and don't even get me started on how most of them dress and the ridiculous music they listen to.

And actually twenty-somethings are not all that great to have around either. They're either looking for a mate or acting sappy about whoever they just found and prattling endlessly about wedding plans, etc. ad nauseum at the top of their lungs. Or worse they're actually ON their honeymoon and the sugar high one gets from being around them could induce diabetes in the healthiest of on-lookers. Many of the unattractive aspects of teenagers linger well into people's twenties.

And thirty and forty-somethings should be banned too because they are the ones most likely to be drunk and disorderly or fight with their spouses publicly and act like total know-it-alls and are just generally a pain in the butt. Plus they are starting to get middle-aged spread and don't look that great any more either.

Now 50-year-olds are usually OK. I know because I am one, and believe me, if everybody who wasn't my age were banned from all public places I would enjoy travel much more. I don't travel to experience things, including people - some of whom, gasp, may be DIFFERENT than me, including at a different stage of life. I travel to see those cute little European stage sets where nobody is actually living their life (which may include the insane possession, of, shudder, children), but instead they are all going about their scripted routines in MY stage-play. I AM THE DIRECTOR!!!! Please act accordingly."

LOL NorCalif. They've got it all figured out, don't they?

<i>some of whom, gasp, may be DIFFERENT than me,</i>

Now having read some threads of someone who is on this thread, you may be closer to the mark that you think. A picture of a couple of black people in Paris for instance and they're amazed that it's Paris and not Johannesburg. While they look for just the right private Mexican resort that has the perfect beach, but can still keep out non-subserviant Mexicans. I think there's a LOT of truth in your quote...

THE END

bummer, I had just come up with a fabulous solution....

Nope, sorry but you don't get to determine that, sicilyan.

Suze, well I will tell you the truth.. I did start this topic for fun...to make you people busy and entertained... so far this topic have 137 replies..I think that I am really good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkPV5...eature=related

...LoL...