I don't see anything wrong with the original itinerary . . . except perhaps all that time you are spending in Munich. In 3 days you could drop down to Garmisch and go to the top of the Zugspitz, see Mittenwald, race through the little section of Austria that borders Germany near Garmisch and spin back up to Fussen and have a "leisurely" stroll back to Munich.

You also seem to be letting grass grow under your feet in Berlin. You need to add a little more punch to that part of the trip.

Having said that, I'd do this trip in a heartbeat (about the same time you've allotted) and enjoy it.

However, I'd never recommend that someone try to cover as much ground as you set out to cover unless you are sure that's what you want to do. Most people who post on this forum tend not to travel in that style. The fact that you are asking suggests that you've not travelled this way before.

To each his own, and with any luck without insulting observations or goofy analogies.

"Rex" is the only person on this forum that I'd allow to make the comments couched in the terms he makes them. He's earned the right.

Snoopy--what is the procedure for the rest of us who've only been travelling for half a century or so to clear comments through you?

RTF,

My most humble apologies. I have always found your comments to be appropriate and very informative. I like your writing style and your point of view.

I just get (newsflash!) tired of reading things like "you can't see Paris in 1/2 day". For some dopey reason I want to rewrite that line to say "SAE_1856, you cant see what kybourbon thinks you need to see in 1/2 day."

I hope SAE_1856 isn't blind, in which case both kybourbon and I need a slap.

Snoopy

Some comments from a Novice international traveller:
Do not compare travel in Europe to travel in the US. Italy is the size of Arizona. I could do Arizona in a week. I could spend more than a month in Italy!
Determine what type of activities you and your family want to do. Museums,hikes, relaxation, etc. and plan and intersperse small towns with cities. (Food and wine are a given).
We spent 2 wks in just N & Central Italy, needed at least 3 days in Venice.

FLy directly into Paris, min 3 nights there. Fly to Rome, min 3 nights.
Train to a small town (Orvieto? Siena?) for 2-3 nights (Get a car rental and explore the area & wine tastings).
Train to Venice 3 nights
Train through Lake Como (1 night) up into Zurich
for 2 nights(Rarely would I recommend only 1 night some place, a few nights in Berlin then leave from Frankfurt.

<<But I'm curious - would someone with a life-threatening congenital birth defect live long enough to develop a major degenerative disease?>>

Well, yes, sure, it happens all the time. Life-threatening means just that - - _threatening_ - - I didn't say a _fatal_ birth defect.

Of cours, this is SO off-topic that if you really want me to offer examples, this is one time that (private) communication through e-mail would be far more appropriate.

Snoopy needs a shot of bourbon!! I didn't know he had been named "post" patrol.

SAE 1856 looks like adults are doing the planning. What interests do each family member have? Did the boys study language or history that might give them a particular interest in any city or region? That is my first way of choosing where and what to see.

That said I have been a Francophile since I was 12 and didn't get to France until I was 39. Took two trips to Paris in 2 years. Spent 2 weeks the first trip (all in Paris) and 3 weeks the second trip (never went more than 100km from the city). However art architecture and design are my main interests and I spent 2 days each trip in the Louvre.

I actually planned a trip like this once (much younger and in the US) and we started it. I was still going strong by Ohio (from California), but I was the only one still having a grand time. We rested a few days in Ohio and turned around and drove home.

In other words, if you can do it and you really want to, go ahead, BUT be super sure everyone traveling with you has that kind of stamina.

Being older and more mellow, I try to stay a minimum of 3 days in each place now and much prefer a week.

You've definitely set yourself a challenge and only you know if it's possible.

I still think you need to adjust what you are trying to see. I know you are exploring, experimenting, seeking. I spent 7 weeks wandering around Europe to cover essentially the same ground.

And I spent 3 weeks later in England and Scotland, and I left that trip unfinished.

On that 7 week wander I did spend more time in Switzerland than you have budgeted, and probably I was in Salzburg longer than the average tourist, but I had a non tourist reason.

We spent almost a week in Berlin. Of course at the time I was there, the zones of occupation existed, and touring the Russian zone was a grim adventure of tremendous intrigue.

I am not totally in love with Paris, but trying to see the major sights of Paris in 3 days is really a rush job.

I think you have to look at a very definite problem with what you have.

And let's start with Paris. Would you go to Paris and not visit Versailles, Vaux-le-Vicomte, Fontainebleau, the Louvre, the Musee d'Orsay, the Rodin Museum, Napoleon's Tomb, the Arc de Triomphe, the Eiffel Tower, Place de la Concorde, Tuilleries Gardens, Notre Dame, Ste. Chapelle, Sacre Couer, perhaps Giverney, and so on and on?

Ok take the list and start cutting.
Which ones are you going to cut first?
What will you have left for a 3 day visit is going to be little.

Let me ask a blunt question: Why are you going to any of these places? What attracts you?

If you don't have a good idea of what you want to see when you get there, let me suggest that you will spend a lot of time milling about without direction and without objectives. You will end up wasting the trip, the time, and the money.

The new itinerary is an improvement, but as Dr. Rex said, it is still a train wreck, just not quite as bad a one.

Remember, you cannot see it all, ever.
So I think you need to establish a list of what types of attractions lure you the most.

For example, I made my priority decision years ago: The Alps of Switzerland and Austria are my own personal magnet. And that is where I focus my attention and my time.

Let me jump in here with this one.
Your first itinerary is too much.
Your second one leave me wondering.
Let me suggest that you take each destination and list the major attractions. Paris is a major objective. Make a list of what attracts you.

Do the same for Rome. It is huge, complex, vast, and confusing.
While you are there, what do you want to visit?

Then figure how much time you will need for each place on your list.

Then you need to look at what you cut.

I say this because the first time I went to Paris, I was not prepared. I had no real idea of what I wanted to see or do. Result: I hated Paris.
I returned many years later much better prepared and had a more interesting time of it. Without a more detailed plan of action than what you have so far, I fear that your trip dreams may go unrealized.

You have embarked on a major undertaking in a very complex environment where you may or may not know the local language.

Don't be discouraged by the reviews you have received to date, but take them as an indication that what you have in mind is in need of much detailed and critical thinking.

Tackle the why am I there aspect of each destination.

topping for SAE

Self-apppointed, though I scoff HA! at being called "post patrol". I have no control. I just make comments on stuff people say.

I sometimes forget how thin skinned people are. kybourbon, I would make my remarks to your face and grin . . . I mean what I say in good humor. There's a difference between a good natured slap fight and a boxing match to the death.

Post Critic? Post Cynic? Post Jerk? Post &^%^&*()%#@$? Call it what you will, just not post patrol!!

By the way, kybourbon, my grandfather grew up in Versailles, KY (as you know, ver-sales), what a beautiful part of the world. Probably not too many Frenchy French people wandering around in Louisville . . .

Anyway, you are the one who said "You can't see Paris in 1/2 day." Isn't that just a little strong? Perhaps it's not as good as 3 days. But are you suggesting that 0 days in Paris is better than 1/2 day?

Sno-"good natured-no-ill-intention"-opy

You might want to visit Rick Steve's web site and read the itinerary for his "Grand European Tour"...here is the link: http://tours.ricksteves.com/catalog/...125&id=654

I'm not suggesting that you sign up for the tour, but it can act as a good guide to get the most out of your trip.

I don't mean this to be snooty, but in some places - Paris, NYC, London - on a first trip - half a day is almost worse than none, unless you know exactly what you want to see or take a tour. It can be very overwhelming, and by the time you learn your way around at all, it is time to leave. It can be done, but it requires careful planning to get anything out of the time. Jim's Rick Steves reference seems like a great one given your goals. I think his trip is actually about as long as your's. You will need more time to cover the same ground, however, since a tour company has getting around down to a science.

Agree that there are places where 1/2 day (or in some cases 1 day) would be worse than none. I would submit that Venice is one of those places--especially during the high season when daytrippers are subjected to stampeding with the rest of the sweating herd down the infamous Daytrippers' Alley amid tacky souvenir shops with "Made in China" Murano glass beads and plastic gondolas, overpriced hotels, terrible tourist menu restaurants, $2 postcards and $5 cokes, agressive street vendors--well, that pretty much describes it. With 1/2 a day or even a full day, many come leave with the impression that this is Venice. They don't realize that if they had more time to explore, they could walk 5 minutes away and find an entirely different city.

Pardon my ignorance, but why would anyone fly to Frankfurt to travel to Paris ?

Hones curiosity as I am going to France through Germany too but I have to stop in Hamburg. If you don't have to stop - what is the reason hitting Frankfurt ?
Sincerelly, Z

SAE, I would pick four cities, cut out the rest. Paris-Dijon-Nice-Venice, for example. Less is more. Your present intin. leaves my head spinning. Believe me, because I've been there, packing and unpacking for 19 days will set you up for a stay in a mental institution.

Could you please tell us your interests??? That would help much.

Not only your interests, but the places you have to be for family reasons.