Travel Itinerary- once in a lifetime trip
 

My family and I (Mother, Father, and two college aged sons) will be traveling around Europe for 21 days starting the last week of July. Could anyone edit this itinerary?

Day 1 Fly into Frankfurt
Night Frankfurt
Day 2 Travel to Paris (early morning)
Night Paris
Day 3 See Paris/travel to Dijon, France
Night Dijon
Day 4 Travel to Nice, France
Night Nice
Day 5 Nice
Night Nice
Day 6 Travel to Rome
Day 7,8 Rome
Night 8 Rome
Day 9 Travel to Venice (early morning)
Night Venice
Day 10 Travel to Zurich (early morning)
Night Zurich
Day 11 Travel to Munich (after lunch)
Day 12,13,14 Munich
Day 15 Travel to Regensburg, Germany (meet family)
Night 15 Regensburg
Day 16 Travel to Prague (early morning)
Night Prague
Day 17 Travel to Berlin (after lunch)
Night Berlin
Day 18 Berlin
Night 18 Berlin
Day 19 Travel to Bremen, Germany (morning)
Night Bremen
Day 20 Travel to Frankfurt
Night Frankfut
Day 21 fly from Frankfurt

We would like to see as much as possible, because we will probably never do this again, but is all of this possible????

You're going to a lot of trouble to get to Paris immediately after arrival, with jet lag and all, and not giving yourself any time at all to see it. I'd toss it from the itinerary unless you can devote at least 3-4 days there.

You have too many one nighters on your itinerary. You cannot see Paris in 1/2 a day. You will be spending all your time traveling or checking in and out of hotels which always takes more time than you think it will. I would not stay in Frankfurt the first night unless you are planning on driving instead of taking a train.

I quit reading your itinerary after the fourth day.

Let me see if I got this right. You call this a "trip of a lifetime". After spending a night in Frankfurt, the four of you are heading all the way to Paris for a single night and leaving the next day (in the afternoon at least, I hope) to go to Dijon. Then you spend a night there -- no time to really see anything -- and head half way across the country to another destination. Already I can only say this:
If you aren't really interested in seeing Dijon don't go! And if you are going all the way, out of your way to see Paris for a day or parts of two days, I think you should forget that as well. If your goal is to see how much time you can spend on trains and how many cities you can check off a list, then OK.

But I'm not reading the rest of your itinerary, because already it has no relation to any trip I can imagine doing. I did glance through the list enough to see that your goal IS apparently to see how many countries you can cover.

Having spent many weeks tramping around Europe as a young man and several returns in recent years, I think you are trying to do too much. In a word, totally unrealistic in my opinion.

You did not say how you intend to travel, so I have assumed train.

You are not allowing for the length of time you will be spending in transit and how little time you will actually be seeing something at your destinations.

As it now stands you will see a lot very superficially and very little in depth.

You are not going to see Paris to amount to anything in the amount of time you have alloted. I have spent a total of 12 days there in recent years and I still have unseen places on my list of high priority items.

The same is true of Venice. You will arrive there in time for about 6 hours of touring.

Having been to Munich regularly the last 3 years, I am not sure there enough there to occupy all the time you have designated unless you travel to one of the Nutty King's castles like Neuschwanstein.

Also you will have very little time in Prague. Your trip by train is 5 hours.
You will not get there until after 2 pm, unless you leave at 4 am in the morning and spend over 8 hours on the train. (Or are you flying to these places.)

To be sort of blunt I see no reason to take a train to a hotel in Prague on my way to Berlin. I think in the end, you will be like I was after my tour of Ireland last summer for 7 days. I don't remember a lot of it, nor do I remember where some of attractions are that we saw. I could not find my way back there without reviewing the whole itinerary.

If you rent a car and drive it, you might improve travel times a little, but not much. In Paris and Venice and Munich and Berlin, finding a place to put the car will be fairly expensive.
But, it is only money.

However, I think you will be fed up with constantly shifting and running and not having time to see what you want to see.

You cannot see it all, and at your pace what you see you will not see well.

I am sorry to say this because I just hate to put people down, but this is probably the most ridiculous itinerary I have ever seen, and most likely impossible for a family of 4 to pull off without killing each other. Why are you flying into Franfurt? You aren't going to get to see a thing. Just fly into Paris and spend 4 nights there. Skip Dijon and spend 3 nights in Nice. Then 3 nights Rome, 3 nights Venice, 2 nights Salzburg (skip Prague, it is just too far), 3 nights Munich, 2 with the family, and wrap up the rest in Frankfurt.

Since you refer to this as a once in a lifetime trip you should have memories you can treasure for years to come. The itinerary you have described, in my opinion, would leave you with a blur rather than good memories.

Having three weeks to spend in Europe is wonderful, but if I were doing your planning I would cut it down to include much less than you have planned. As was noted above, you will spend too much precious time traveling from one place to another, packing and unpacking as you go from hotel to hotel, and it seems to me spending so little time in most destinations you will see nothing.

I wish you well, but certainly don't envy the trip you have described. Too many cities/countries and too little time to enjoy most of them.

Usually when I see an itinerary such as yours, I just ignore it because it is so incredible, little can be done to fix it. But you must rethink your plans. Give some thought to the things you really want to see. Your itinerary is heavy on Germany, light on France. You don't allow enough time to really see anything of Paris, Rome or Venice - three of the must sees on your list. Paris and Rome deserve at least 4 days each and that time will allow you to see only the highlights. You have not described the trip of a lifetime but a 21-day nightmare. On the other hand, it probably is the trip of a lifetime because if you survive this, you'll never want to return!

Hi SAE

I'm sorry to say that you will remember this trip with loathing for the rest of your life.

There is just too much travel time.

Why not do just Germany?

OR

If you really want to see Venice, there is a nice train ride over the Alps from Munich. Spend 3 days there. You can then train to Vienna for a few days and go on to Prague for a few days before training back to Munich.

Paris (and Rome) are just too far for such a short trip.

In the medical field, we would call this itinerary a "train wreck". Let's see what organ systems are still functioning, and whether there is any hope for salvaging this patient.

Actually, I would liken it to having a serious infection, a grave injury, a life-threatening congenital birth defect, and a major degenerative disease.

But it IS possible to recover, even from such a terrible combination.

The infection is the mental notion of "once in a lifetime". If we cannot eradicate it, then perhaps like other infections, we'll learn to live with it, and hope to quell it at some later date. And forgive me if the medical analogy cuts too close to home - - I trust that none of the four you has an actual terminal illness, so that you mean it quite literally that this is once in a lifetime. If the constraint is financial, then presumably you mean either you have saved for years, and you cannot imagine being able to save this much up again in the foreseeable future. Or maybe you are spending both current and future income, and you know this is all you can afford to spend for a long time to come.

Either way, there would be great wisdom in paring this trip down from 21 days to 12, and thinking about how you might make a second trip in a year or two or three, with the money you saved and whatever you can add to it, through investment or additional earning/saving (not to mention the experience/wisdom gained from the first trip).

The grave injury: let's hope you have not yet purchased the airfare that takes you into and out of Frankfurt. As has already been stated, it serves no function - - other than to add to your already enormous number of INTRA-Europe miles - - for you to fly into Frankfurt. If you have, we'll just to sew up around it. Regrettably.

The congenital defect: thinking of Europe as all cities. Any trip to Europe of more than eight nights ought to contain 10-30% in smaller-town or rural destinations. Not that all-city trips are a disaster. Just like being born with one arm is still compatible with going through life. But it's a seriously incomplete experience.

And finally the degenerative disease: thinking of one single mode for intra-Europe transport. As others have already speculated, it seems that perhaps you have train (or leased car) in mind - - it almost doesn't matter; either would be a mistake. Assuing that you are really bent on seeing four or more countries including France, Italy and Germany - - you ought to combine some train, and/or some rental car and one or more low cost intra-Europe flights (France to Italy or Italy to Germany, or France to/from Germany). While Prague (and other destinations in the Czech republic) would be a fine addition to any "heart of Europe" itinerary, it really stretches your loop, which you have already defined by these boundaries: Paris, Rome and Berlin. If you must have a fourth country, I would recommend Austria, Switzerland or England (yes, I realize that stretches to yet a larger quadrilateral, but it is very close to Paris, and the air travel options to/from London are so much more abundant than Prague - - besides, if you are first-time travelers to Europe, then you might find a few days of English-speaking a nice transition-adjustment aid).

My reply, and others, will undoubtedly seem so caustic that you will probably bite your lip, or feel greatly insulted and never communicate with "us" here on the forum - - but if you are willing to re-look at any of the problems, as they appear through my "microscope", I would love to help you get this itinerary back out of "critical status".

Best wishes,

Rex

Thank you all!!! This trip will now definitly not happen. That would have been the worse mistake ever! We will not stop in Dijon and also not Zurich, and spend more time in the cities that we visit. This is obviously the first time that we have attempted to do such a thing, so any more suggestions would be wonderful! Thank you.

Did you already book air? If not, book an open-jaw, flying into Paris and ut of Frankfurt.

I agree with the others. Try to spend at least 3 nigths and 3 full days in Paris and ROme, and at least 2 nights & days in Venice. Don't wear yourself out, you'll be too tired to enjoy it by the end of the 2nd week.

Haven't checked the other posters' comments carefully -- but a question -- is there a reason why you wanted to spend so much time in Germany?

<<so any more suggestions would be wonderful!>>

If a total revamp is indeed really something you would consider - - here is how I would make the best of your original framework:

Day 1 - arrive Paris; nights 1 through 5 there, with one good day trip - - perhaps to Chartres? (but many other good choices available)
Day 6 - fly to Rome; nights 6,7 and 8 there
Day 9 - train to Orvieto (but many other choices would make sense - - or stick in a small town like Trento AFTER Venice)
Day 10 - train to Venice; nights 10 and 11 there
Day 12 - train to Salzburg; night 12 there.
Day 13 - train to Munich; nights 13 and 14 there; rent car upon departure on morning 15
Day 15-16-17 - - meandering your way towards Berlin; consider Ulm or Wurzburg or Weimar or Dresden or plenty of other choices.
Day 18 - arrive Berlin; turn in car; nights 18, 19, 20 there.
Day 21 - fly home.

I actually stay with my recommendation that you reconsider scrapping the three week idea, and save one entire country for a second trip in 2005, 2006 or 2007.

Let me know if you would like me to give it further thought.

SAE-I am really happy that you didn't take offense and that we can try to help you. A few of the reasons that you need to scale back are:
1. Luggage for 4 people is going to be a chore.
2. If you do not speak the language it takes much longer to navigate airports and such then it does in your home town.
3. The jetlag will blow away your first day and night.
4. It is going to be very, very hot in all of these places in August, also slowing you down.
You need to have 4 days in Paris, considering the jet lag. In Rome, the Vatican museum line that gets you into the Sistine chapel and the Vatican itself is a whole day by itself. You need 2 days minimum for the rest of Rome. Now you need to relax. I would skip Nice and the French Riv, and head to Cinque Terre or Tuscany for a few days to regroup after a week in cities. Pick a place with a pool if possible. Venice requires 2 nights, just because it is so much fun! Salzburg is a real little beauty. You must visit the palace outside of Salzburg with the water fountains (I will try to get the name unless another fodorite comes up with it faster). And then on to Germany.

Like most people, I think you are trying to see too much, but I understand the attraction of wanting to see everything you have read about.

My suggestion would be to agree on your interests, such as native countryside, art, food, cities, etc., and make your trip conform to those interests.

I have never been to France in August, but I have read that it virtually shuts down for the entire month, so if you want to go there, go there at the start of your trip. Since you have family in Germany, plan to spend some time there.

Look into the possibility of an open-jaw, or multiple destinations, air fare. You could, for example, fly into Paris, spend a few days, take a train to Germany, spend a few days, take a train to Venice passing through the alps (don't let anyone talk you into taking a night train; you will miss the most amazing scenery), spend a few days in Venice, and fly home from there.

Our first trip we spent a week in Florence, a week in Switzerland, and a week in Venice, and our feeling was that each visit was too short. Our next trip we spent two weeks in Paris, and even then we didn't get to see everything we wanted, but it was a far more enjoyable experience.

Warning!! You may think this will be a once-in-a-lifetime trip, but you will enjoy it so much you will find a way to go again.

Another important consideration is that the French all make their way to the south the first weekend in August when the children are out for the summer and many factories/businesses shut down for the month. This is when you hear of the notorious 300+ mile long traffic jams.

Cut Nice (for the above reasons). I think you'd be better served concentrating on Paris (IF you fly into there), Italy and Germany.

The original schedule is not a trip, it is a trek, bordering on a death march.

Dump France, Berlin, and Prague. Head south from Frankfurt through Bavaria, Switzerland, and into Italy.

You need at least 21 days for just Bavaria, Sw., and Italy.

I'd fly into Munich--3 days Munich. Then 3-5 days elsewhere in southern Germany. Then head south.

If you must fly into FRA--then I'd take a train to Bamberg for a couple of days, then train to Munich for 3 days or so. Then head south.

SAE, Good rules of thumb !

1. 21 days=7 destinations[3 per]
2. one to another=max of 4 hours
3. Spend as much time in small villages as you do large cities.

Fly into Munich and out from Zurich and pick 7 destinations between.

Rex -
I love your analogy. But I'm curious - would someone with a life-threatening congenital birth defect live long enough to develop a major degenerative disease?

SAE_1856 I agree with everyone else's posts. This itineray must be seriously trimmed if you want to avoid the trip from hell. Since Germany seems to be a given for family reasons use that as the center and add either Paris or Venice/Rome or Prague. Then review that itineray with a road map or train schedule - being realistic about times for finding and checking in/out of hotels. Post that itinerary and I'm sure people will provide lots of specific suggestions.