<I did some comparisons while preparing for an upcoming trip, and found that for a single person traveling without children, the Britrail passes are a waste of money. The passes are very overpriced for most people who are traveling alone.>

Speak for yourself only - you say flat out BritRail Passes are a waste of money - i guess regardless of the trips they will take (and regardless of whether fully flexible travel is wanted)

For you and your plans it was a waste of money but for other like Roger above and many many other itineraries i can show you where BritRail Passes are not a waste of money. I find you statement simply unsupportable - always in every case a waste of money. Take the current 4-day England railpass at $199 p.p. for a single traveler - that's $50 a day or about 30 pounds a day - i can show you lots of itineraries where that would be a bargain - even compared to the cheaper online fares - yes 30 quid a day for fully flexible travel is an absolute bargain. Don't extrapolate what you found true to others blindly.

You are right, I should not have made a blanket statement that the Pass is a waste of money for all people traveling alone. So I will rephrase my statement: The Passes are a waste of money for most people, especially anyone who wants to spend more than a day in the same city.

Most travelers without families will find it very difficult to make a 4-day Pass be cost-effective for their itineraries. Of course there are exceptions, e.g. the person who travels from Durham to London on Day 1, spends only 1 day in London and then travels to Manchester, spends only 1 day in Manchester and then takes the train to yet another distant location.

But most people do not travel that way, at least not from the itineraries I've seen on this Web site.

I also want to comment on previous statements that the Pass provides greater flexibility than would otherwise be possible. This is not true. The 4-day restriction is a HUGE limitation, very restrictive, and not at all flexible. It is possible to buy passes that have longer time periods, but at a much greater cost, and the extra cost makes it even less likely there would be any cost savings.

I bought a 4-day Pass for my previous visit to England, and ended up being sorry I did. There was no cost savings (I barely broke even), and I was locked into those 4 days for my long distance train trips. This was 11 years ago, but I do not see anything in the current Britrail price structure to change my opinion of the Pass's value.

Joyce - i picked dates feb 25, 26, 27, 28

4-days for a journey London to York then onto Edinburgh same day

and Edinburgh return to London 28th - last of 4 days

cheapest fares on nationalrail.co.uk were

London-York 57 pounds but was only late in the day so 67 pounds was cheapest i found - 67 pounds

York-Edinburgh cheapest was 38 pounds but it was on one train only at did not coincide with my 2-3 hour stop in York - next cheapest York to Edinburgh 76.40 pounds - 76.40 pounds

Edinburgh to London - 42.50 available on several trains

adding up the three fares
67
76
42= 185 pounds or about $275 - compare this to the currently $199 four straight day (off-peak fare - passes are after Mar 1 $249 - still cheaper than $275

So you may see that this itinerary - not unusual in a 4-day period shows you how a 4-day consecutive pass for a single traveler is not nearly always a waste of money - indeed buying tickets for those dates from the nationalrail.co.uk site would be a waste of money

and with the pass you have complete flexibility - you get off at York, put your bags in a locker and stroll the half-mile or so to the Minister and city centre and come back and you board the next train - not having to coordinate with some non-changeable ticket, etc.

If i compared prices with fully flexible tickets those regular tickets would have been about $500 or more

not only in the pass in this not too unusual trip - up to Edinburgh and back cheaper than the restricted cheapest online fares but it gives you total flexibility - a key for some if not you.

And once in Scotland you could also do a rail day trip to Sterling or St Andrews without paying a pence extra.

Sorry but i think you by saying
<Most travelers without families will find it very difficult to make a 4-day Pass be cost-effective for their itineraries.>

is not as difficult as you make it out. And a flexipass does not cost all that much more than the consecutive day passes. And some folks - many folks in the York example need flexibility and then the pass is a huge huge money saver.

I do advise folks always to check nationalrail.co for fares and restrictions, etc. before blindly buying a pass as some do - and you did apparently 11 years ago.

When the pound was at $2.10 not long ago the pass prices were the same - meaning that if you would have said what you said in the fall you would find that passes then were almost always a good deal if traveling enough.

<Most travelers without families will find it very difficult to make a 4-day Pass be cost-effective for their itineraries.>

And you are applying your requirements about not needing flexibility to others - i demand it and lots of travelers do - take the stop at York en route to Edinburgh - you get off the train - do your stuff and then take the very next train when returning to station - not having to come back earlier than wanted to because you have a train specific ticket - or coming back earlier than you thought and having to twiddle your thumbs for a few hours waiting for your specific train.

And for wanting flexibility then a return ticket to any destination a few hours or more away will be cheaper with a 4-day pass - like the example of 133 pounds each way in 2nd class to Manchester that i described above.

You simply cannot say <Most travelers without families will find it very difficult to make a 4-day Pass be cost-effective for their itineraries> without qualifying passengers' requirements.

I would agree with PalenQ if he didn't repeatedly quote ficticious fares.
The standard one-way ticket from London to Manchester, valid on any train is now £123.50, not £133.
An off-peak one-way ticket, valid on most trains, is £65.10, and can be bought at any time prior to travelling (but cannot be bought on the train). An off-peak return (round-trip) ticket, valid on most trains, is £66.10. These tickets are not restricted to specific trains, except that they cannot be used on a few peak-time services, and do not have to be bought in advance (except that you have to buy the ticket before boarding the train).

Geoff - are those 65 quid tickets always available right before the train?

And again my requirements are to just hop on any train - are you saying i will always be able to get the 65 pound ticket just before the train. That would make a difference in my equations - complete flexibility and not dependent on those tickets being sold out and having to pay full fare.

I do note what you say and i need to check out nationalrail.co.uk more on the conditions of the restricted fares.

And even at 65 pounds each way (say i want to leave before 9:30am or whatever the off-peak time is) that's 130 pounds or about $200 - more than the current price of a 3-day consecutive England railpass - $119 (off peak) after Mar 1 $159) - if under 26 3-straight day England railpass = $99! ($129 peak)

So if i do a day trip to Manchester at 65 quid return that's still $100 - so i get two more days of unlimited travel for $19 or (Peak $59) - and if going to Bath or York well it's obvious that a consecutive-day pass can be a boon even with the restricted fare prices you quote.

Geoff- Q- in another thread some British folk say a seat reservation in 2nd class (long-distance trains) is imperative as they are often full.

In that case i would not be able to buy the 65 pound at the station discounted ticket, right? Yet with a pass i can hop on even a full train and look for a no-show seat or even stand for a while and play musical seats? It just simplifies what tourists can find a flummoxing thing IMO.

The fares I quoted are not sold in limited numbers, and therefore do not guarantee a seat. The full fare (£123.50 one-way to Manchester) does not guarantee a seat, because the ticket allows you to travel on any train. These tickets entitle you to travel on the train - even if you have to stand. It is exactly the same as with a rail pass.
I am not arguing against rail passes - I have used them myself in various countries - but the cost of the rail pass needs to be compared with the actual train fares, not made-up ones.

Geoff - i need to study the fare structure, which seems Byzantine to me, a bit better.

Make sure i understand you correctly: You can buy say the 65 pound fare at the station and then use it on any train - or is it, as seems, a ticket on a train-specific train - thinking of the return fare where i would have to plug a return time in? From your writing it seems only a full fare ticket can travel on any train - the 65 pounds on specific train only - if not there would be no difference between full fare and half full fare. So i am assuming i can buy a ticket for the very next train and board, just like a railpass with no seat reservation. I had thought the discounted tickets were only for reserved seats - my mistake. Anyways thanks for correcting me - i do need to study nationalrail.co.uk a bit more. But i still would not agree like some others have said that a railpass in Britain never makes sense and is a waste of money. But do your research, which is what i've always said and always cite nationalrail.co.uk to see the fares and restrictions. I always have a first-class pass and it seems as that flexibility in that class like i demand means a very expensive ticket - so my point may be better with first-class passes than 2nd class. though still a 3-straight day pass for $119 can be a great deal depending on itinerary even with the discounted fares or it may not depending on travel plans. I do agree that too often travel agents automatically advise for passes and do do their comparisons with BritRail's fully flexible fares and that's it. On Fodor's we are lucky to tap into folks like you who present a different take.

And i assume the conditions apply to all the 28 or so rail franchises - the types of tickets you describe that is or does each have their own conditions, which would only add to the flummoxing for tourists.

The fares I quoted are off-peak. Taking London-Manchester tomorrow as an example, a one-way ticket to travel on any train costs £123.50. An off-peak one-way ticket costing £65.10 seems to be valid on the 0920 train from London Euston and on subsequent trains. If you buy an off-peak ticket, it is not valid on the 0900 train or earlier trains, but it can be used on the 0920, 0940, 1000, 1020 and any train up to 1500; the off-peak ticket cannot be used on trains leaving from 1520 to 1820, but it can be used on the 1840, 1900, etc. The ticket is not tied to a specific departure and can be used for any train outide the peak periods which will vary between train routes. At weekends, the ticket can probably be used at any time. A one-way off-peak ticket is valid on the date printed on it; an off-peak return is valid for one month. In most cases, you are allowed to break the journey and continue on a later train.
There are basically three types of ticket for British trains: anytime, off-peak and advance. The advance tickets are sold in limited numbers, but the other tickets are always on sale.

"some British folk say a seat reservation in 2nd class (long-distance trains) is imperative as they are often full."

A seat reservation is no guarantee that seat, or even that carriage, will actually exist IME. Having said that, I wouldn't book without a seat reservation.

Thank you Geoff

Caroline - you seem not to have much faith in British trains and for locals flying makes a lot of sense as an alternative - yet for the tourist i encourage them to at least go one way to Edinburgh from London by train - just to see the country and lay of the sheep-dotted land. Locals will think there is no nice scenery but for a foreigner even just plain old farms with all the sheep, green fields, etc. will be pleasant. And from Newcastle to Edinburgh it is very, at times awesomely scenic IMO - in fact readers of some magazine not long ago voted this stretch of the East Coast mainline Britain's most scenic rail line. (Something many would say is more properly applied to the Scottish Highlands lines.

Hi all, I have finally booked this entire trip and thought I would let you all know what we are doing, for those of you who are not completely sick of me.

We are NYC residents, and I decided we needed to see the country, and that flying from London to Dublin would deprive us of that opportunity.

So we did buy a BritRail Pass, a 4-day consecutive, for $199 x 2. They were offering a free extra consecutive day. Our itinerary, after spending 5 days in London:
day 1 - day trip to Oxford and back to London
day 2 - leaving London for good, to Salisbury/Stonehenge
day 3 - to Bath (thank you PalenQ)
day 4 - to Chester (thank you Irishface)
day 5 - to Holyhead and boat to Dublin

So, for $400, all 4 of us will travel for 5 consecutive days. An excellent value, I think, that will satisfy even Mr. FlannerUK.

We will spend 2 nights in Dublin and then 2 nights in Ennis, close to Shannon Airport.

Thanks again to all of you for your many words of wisdom.

Andrea

Well, I hope you have a better experience than I did on my last train journey, taken since my previous comments here. Outbound was OK, return journey was a nightmare - only half the scheduled number of carriages & all seat reservations cancelled, still just managed to get a seat in the theoretical 'Quiet' carriage with then became horribly crowded with passengers standing and sitting in the aisles, and full of screaming children. (And it cost me more than I'm paying to fly to Venice next week.) Never again, I hope.

The rail pass/not rail pass will continue to be an issue for some. What I would like to mention is 1) I am a tourist, not a local, as a tourist I am not as knowledgeable as a local nor do I have the whole year, only a very few days. 2) I expect to spend money while on vacation. 3) I want full flexibility to walk up to any train and board. 4) I will continue to use the rail pass while in Britain. 5) I don't care if you don't like trains in your country, It's important that I do. And finally, just look at my trip report, most of my train trips were not planned, either due to weather or because I knew that I could get to where I was going by just showing up and ask for assistance.

Yes for tourists flexibility is priceless - IMO and IME - get up head to the station and hop on one of the usually hourly or more trains - not having to get up to catch the non-changeable non-refundable 9:36, which IME could also be quite late so rather than twiddling your thumbs you hop on the next train - like the 10:06 which IME could well trundle into the station before the 9:36

Our British friends have taken time to give valuable info about ticketing, etc. but as often the case do not put themselves IMO into the role of a tourist. But the info they give is valuable to folks diligent about researching or who may be doing only one or two train trips.

And yes $400 for 4 folks for 5 straight days is a bargain even in light of the non-changeable non-refundable type fares.